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Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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Doug Melven

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Augustine. Read up on him really well.
He believed different concepts at different times of his life.
He was a gnostic.
He was a manichaen.
He claimed to have answers than then changed his mind.
Also, I'd like to say that he believed in predestination but not the way Calvin did. Just so we could knock him off our list quickly without too much study, no other theologian of the time agreed with him - but after time some of his theology was accepted - for instance original sin came from him; baptisms of babies came from him...do you like those doctrine? No. Then don't listen too much to what Augustine had to say.

I agree with the rest of what you've said.
Whether or not Augustine believed it and later changed his mind is irrelevant.
The concept of Perseverance of the saints was there long before the 1500's.
There were even people who believed in Universal Salvation heresy, everybody will be saved. Some even include Satan in that.
 
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LoveofTruth

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But once a person repents and believes according to Mark 1:15 they are saved. Conditions are met.
Then Jesus says I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.
If you are required to follow to be saved that is salvation by works.
We are saved by works, God's works. God's work on the cross without us and His work in us at the new birth . We abide in this life and in Christ by faith and continual believing daily picking up our cross and dying daily so that the life of Christ may be made manifest in our lives. This is how we yeild to the Spirit and not the flesh and how we sow to the spirit and reap everlasting life. This is how we continue in well doing ( in Christ) and overcome to the end.

God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work, working in us that which is well pleasing through Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV) do you believe this?

do you believe that God's works save?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Whether or not Augustine believed it and later changed his mind is irrelevant.
The concept of Perseverance of the saints was there long before the 1500's.
There were even people who believed in Universal Salvation heresy, everybody will be saved. Some even include Satan in that.
Sure. There were many beliefs,
But they were heresy.
The church constantly had councils to fight the heresies.

The very creed that is the SoF on this forum was created to discredit the heresy of Arianism and declare the nature of Jesus.
 
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LoveofTruth

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It seems you don't really understand what is meant by "having eternal life". For that is the issue in the verse, and you can't even address the issue.
Yes I do, I live in that life in Christ daily as I abide in him and continue in his word. In him is life. If we do not abide IN HIM, then we are not in that eternal life, as Jesus said and as we read all through scripture .


There are many "ifs" in scripture connected to our faith and overcoming and salvation.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yes I do, I live in that life in Christ daily as I abide in him and continue in his word. In him is life. If we do not abide IN HIM, then we are not in that eternal life, as Jesus said and as we read all through scripture .


There are many "ifs" in scripture connected to our faith and overcoming and salvation.
Many ifs, many falling away, many continuing,,,etc.
These are all conditions,, simple English.
 
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LoveofTruth

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To all:

we have two verses that seem to create an issue, they are

"Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked."


and

Romans 4:5

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."


Now, this is understood in the fact that the whole world is in sin and are wicked and ungodly,the acts that they do will not be justified. For God does not work iniquity and he does not make men sin and He cannot change his character.

So in a unrepentant state of wicked ungodliness all are lost. But God has concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all. This mercy is toward the entire world of the ungoldly for all the world is in sin,"all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

When a person comes to faith in Christ, he is trusting God's righteousness and he is believing the gospel. Then he is justified by faith and put in right standing with God even though he is ungodly. He has started to walk by faith. But God does not leave him there. Christ dwells in his heart by faith and God is now working in him. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord and it is only in faith that we can now walk and live and move as children of God.

This aspect of his justification is spoken of in many ways.

Consider some of the aspects of the full doctrine of justification.

Justified by grace (in Christ)

Romans 3:24
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"


Titus 3:7
"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."


Justified by his blood


Romans 5:9
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."


Justified in the name of Jesus Christ and by The Spirit of God


1 Corinthians 6:11
"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (to be in the name of Jesus Christ is to be in the power life character and authroity of his being in the life and Spirit. As we sow to the spirit we shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life(Gal 6:8 KJV)


Justified by works
(God's works on the cross and in us and we can show forth that faith and salvation we have if we abide in him)

James 2:24
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."


Justified by Jesus resurrection


Romans 4:25
"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."


Justified by our words

Matthew 12:37
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.(And out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks)


Justified by faith


Romans 5:1
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."


There is also an ongoing aspect to continue in this justification as we read

Galatians 2:17

"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

So in order to continue in eternal life (Jesus Christ) we must abide in him, if we remain in him and he in us then we can DO all things and are justified by our faith, the Spirit of God working in us, the blood of Jesus, the works of God in our life as we live in them, our words, and by the grace of God for us and in us.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Many ifs, many falling away, many continuing,,,etc.
These are all conditions,, simple English.
Yes many of them. Just a sample

1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV

"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."(1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV)

Colossians 1:23 KJV

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"


Hebrews 3:6 KJV
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."


John 14:23 KJV
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."


Galatians 6:9
And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."


Hebrews 12:7

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"


2 Timothy 2:12

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"


1 John 1:7
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


1 Jonh 2:24,25 KJV
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

So is salvation unconditional? will God save the ones who say they are in the light and walk in darkness? Are they in the truth and speaking truth?

Can one verse John 10:28 out of context help them?
 
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Doug Melven

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P.S. Since you're studying the early church theologians, try to read what they thought about eternal security.
Just google early church fathers and eternal security.
NONE OF THEM BELIEVED IN IT.
This is a fact.
I don't know why it's a scary fact since we are saved for as long as we want to be. God will never turn us away.
I actually did just that. And I noticed something about all these "church fathers", they were all called saints by the Catholic church.
Was the Catholic church the only church at that time?
Have you ever heard the adage, "the victors write history"?
I say, "Let God be true and every man a liar".
 
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Doug Melven

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Sure. There were many beliefs,
But they were heresy.
This is not what you said earlier.
Earlier you said OSAS did not come around till the 1500's.
Now you say it was there, but it was called heresy.
These 2 statements are not the same.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Yes many of them. Just a sample

1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV

"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."(1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV)

Colossians 1:23 KJV

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"


Hebrews 3:6 KJV
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."


John 14:23 KJV
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."


Galatians 6:9
And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."


Hebrews 12:7

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"


2 Timothy 2:12

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:"


1 John 1:7
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


1 Jonh 2:24,25 KJV

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."

So is salvation unconditional? will God save the ones who say they are in the light and walk in darkness? Are they in the truth and speaking truth?

Can one verse John 10:28 out of context help them?
No. It will not help them.
This teaching will cause some to lose salvation.
Why?
Doctrine does not save us.
But some doctrine could cause us to live in a manner that Jesus would not approve of and this IS dangerous because God is a just God and He remains faithful to Himself.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I actually did just that. And I noticed something about all these "church fathers", they were all called saints by the Catholic church.
Was the Catholic church the only church at that time?
Have you ever heard the adage, "the victors write history"?
I say, "Let God be true and every man a liar".
The early church theologians are quoted.
They wrote. You could read what they actually said.
You won't find osas in any of their writings.
 
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GodsGrace101

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This is not what you said earlier.
Earlier you said OSAS did not come around till the 1500's.
Now you say it was there, but it was called heresy.
These 2 statements are not the same.
No.
Osas........1,500 AD

I was referring to other heresies which did exist.
I gave the example of arianism.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I now have two posts within one thread where you declare that one could live a life of sin and still be saved. This is the ultimate conclusion of OSAS.
I really don't know why there is such confusion here. Jesus was clear about eternal security in John 10:28.

He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients to meet in order to not perish. Period.

So, no matter what horrible examples one conjurs up makes no difference.

I asked:
How many times does it need to be repeated that a life of sin will cause someone to lose their salvation.

And you replied the above:
None. Because it's not true, and the Bible does not say this.

I do hope that everyone reading along realizes that what you're saying is that one could live a life of sin and still be saved.

Why do you not believe what Jesus said? There are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

This goes against everything Jesus taught and also Paul.
Mathew 7:23
Romans 13:8-13
This statement just shows how much you misunderstand the Word.


The fact that the bible commands sthat we keep His commandments shows it IS a factor in retaining our salvation.
Please quote such a verse. I do not believe you. If you were right, then the Bible is conflicted and contradicted, which I also reject totally.

If we are to be members of the Kingdom, we're to keep the laws of the Kingdom.
Yes, we are to obey the commands. But not to keep salvation.

If that were true, there was no need for Jesus to go to the cross for anyone.

So explain why He did.
 
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FreeGrace2

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1. You do have a difficult time with English.
Wrong.

This is unfortunate.
Those who don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 are unfortunate.

If I describe to a baker HOW I want a cake made, it sets THE CONDITION for how he is to make it. If he does not make it to my DESCRIPTION, I am not obligated to purchases it. Very easy to understand.
I really thought you were following the discussion. When I mentioned "condition", the context for that is a conditional statement, whereby one thing must be done before another thing will be done. And there is NOTHING in John 10:27 that MUST BE DONE before anything else can be done.

But since you want to talk about conditions, ok, let's do.

There IS a condition in John 10:28. Here it is:
The condition for not perishing is to receive (have, possess) eternal life.

Do you agree or not? If not, please explain in clear words why not and how my "condition" isn't in the verse.

2. Those Jesus gives life to will never perish. This is correct.
Great. Then we have no arguement.

HOW does Jesus give this life? The life is in the vine and is distributed to the branches. If we stay attached to the vine, we have the life, if we become cut off from the vine, we lose the life force Jesus gives us. A branch removed from a tree - DIES.
Romans 11:20-22
Now you're off the rails again. You've forced a metaphor into a straightforward statement in John 10:28. And you were doing so well until that.

The context for John 10:28 isn't Romans, written many years after Jesus taught on earth. The context is what preceeded 10:28 that speaks of having eternal life.

Oh, and we have some verses!! Goody goody!!

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

So, according to Jesus here, what is necessary (the condition) for having eternal life in all of these verses?

3. So you think the Early Church Fathers said incorrect doctrine and believed in nonsense?
Are you still on this toot?

They were among the most brilliant minds of all time, including philosophers.
Oh, yeah.

You really should read them - it would broaden your scope. Many churches are not studying the ECF; as well they should.
Why broaden a scope to include FALSE DOCTRINE?

Seems you're more enamored with these so-called brilliant philosophers than what Jesus said in plain language. How sad.

4. The rest of your answers are rather silly so I'll go to another poster.
Sure.
 
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FreeGrace2

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P.S. Since you're studying the early church theologians, try to read what they thought about eternal security.
Just google early church fathers and eternal security.
NONE OF THEM BELIEVED IN IT.
Which is why they are a total waste of time reading. They disagree with Jesus.

Therefore, their writings are worthless.

This is a fact.
Yes, it's a fact that what they wrote is worthless, compared to what Jesus said.
 
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FreeGrace2

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If we do not abide IN HIM, then we are not in that eternal life, as Jesus said and as we read all through scripture .
I really wonder how someone can say this and not realize that since "abiding in Him" is a command to obey, then if "abiding in Him" means having eternal life, then you are in charge of your own salvation. NOT.

There are many "ifs" in scripture connected to our faith and overcoming and salvation.
Try me. Give me just one verses that flat out states in plain language (no metaphors or figures of speech) that we can lose salvation or that a believer can perish.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No. It will not help them.
This teaching will cause some to lose salvation.
Why?
Doctrine does not save us.
Here is a reality check for you.

Jesus Christ saves sinners. He does that by giving His life, eternal life to whoever believes in Him for it. And He says that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

No "ifs", "ands" or "buts". Just straightforward plain language about eternal security for those given eternal life.

But some doctrine could cause us to live in a manner that Jesus would not approve of and this IS dangerous because God is a just God and He remains faithful to Himself.
Whatever Jesus taught is SAFE to teach because He commands His disciples to "make disciples of all nations" in Matt 28:19 and "teaching them" in v.20.

So go ahead and do the right thing; teach what Jesus taught. It's perfectly safe.

And don't worry about how some perverts will twist Scripture.

Just remember to include th doctrine of God's divine discipline when you teach eternal security.
 
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EmSw

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I had asked 3 questions of you in another thread which has been closed, which got you off the hook.

So, I'll ask them again, all of which will reveal the hand you are playing, which will show that your theology is far from Christianity.


1. Explain WHY Jesus is called the Savior. What did He DO to be Savior?

2. Explain WHY both water baptism and communion include the cross that you mock.

3. Explain what redemption means and what it accomplished.

Nonsense. I asked these 3 questions a while ago before the other thread was closed. And you ignored it then.

I've answered ALL of your questions.


Oh, yeah. Still playing that game, huh.

I gave you plenty of verses from inspired Bible writers who referenced the OT Scriptures for their clear views on how to have eternal life, and that is faith in Christ. btw, the Hebrew word for 'Christ' is 'Messiah', which occurs in the OT.

So don't tell me I haven't answered your question. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I haven't answered it.

And, here they are again, so that anyone who is following this discussion will see just how dishonest you are.

Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

In all these verses, the word "Scriptures" refers to OT writings.

Now, let's see if you're brave enough to answer my 3 questions.

Nope! You have failed to give us ONE OT passage...ZERO!!! I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what the OT is. I've told you before, I DON'T WANT ANY REFERENCES to the OT. I want actual OT passages. You know what? I will give you one which shows how they receive life.

Deuteronomy 30
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish
, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


See how easy that was FG2? I had no problem at all finding these passages. I have no idea what your problem is.

Now, since you say OT and NT saints are saved the same way, let's look at these passages to see how OT saints received life.

First, let me mention that there is nothing about faith in the Messiah. NOTHING!!! Now, to walk in His ways, to keep His commandments, statutes, and judgments, is how they received life and multiplied.

But, if they turned their hearts away, and not hear, they will be drawn away and worship and serve other gods, God says He denounces them and they SHALL PERISH. You heard the word PERISH before, haven't you, FG2?

I told you this would bury your theology, and God even gives you the shovel. Start digging, FG2.

Tomorrow, I will give another OT passage on how they received life. Wow, this is so easy!
 
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EmSw

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Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
2 Chronicles 20:7 Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thyfriend for ever?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Now, if you want to get this life into your flesh.
Proverbs 4:20 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
4:21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.
4:22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.

I will give you a C+ for trying. FG2 didn't even try.

Are you saying Abraham wasn't saved before Genesis 15:6? Abraham didn't have life before Genesis 15:6? I guess people will believe whatever they desire, as long as it agrees with their beliefs.

Why did you not include verses 21 through 24 with your James 2 passage?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Don't you just love those passages from Proverbs? I do. Do you attend to His words and incline your ear to His sayings to find life?
 
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EmSw

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Are you really not aware that analogies aren't exactly alike in every way??

But it seems your point is that when one ceases to believe, just like a bruise (but a very stupid analogy), eternal life will eventually disappear, go away.

How ridiculous is that! Eternal life doesn't "eventually disappear" or "eventually go away". lol

So from which verses did you learn about that piece of info?

My point stands. The present tense does NOT mean that the result of a present tense action ceases just because the action ceases.

Here's an analogy which is much better than your analogy with a bruise eventually going away.

The action is a gunshot with the bullet going directly to the heart. At the moment of the action, the result is physical death.

But after the action has ceased, the result of that action continues. It doesn't eventually disappear or go away.

How silly.

There have been many people shot in the heart and lived to tell about it. And yes, the result of that action does go away. You have to get better scenarios; you've failed in the ones you have presented so far.

Here, I'll give you one. You put a down payment on a house and make the first month's mortgage payment. This is the action. What is the result? You get to live in your house. Now suppose you quit making your mortgage payments (quit the action). Do you think you can continually live in the house (the result of the action) on just that first month's payment?
 
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