Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[Doug Melven]

Doug Melven said in post #560:

I am curious as to what you think the difference is between the Old and New Covenants.

The Old Covenant was the covenant which God made with ancient Israel through Moses (Exodus 24:8, Deuteronomy 5:3) after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (Jeremiah 31:32) in the fifteenth century BC. The New Covenant is a different, current covenant, which God has made with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31) through Jesus Christ since His first coming in the first century AD (Hebrews 12:24, Matthew 26:28).

How does anything in this paragraph answer my question?

The Bible, in English translations, sometimes also calls the New Covenant the New Testament. For the original Greek word "diatheke" (G1242) can be translated into English as either "covenant" (Hebrews 8:8) or "testament" (Hebrews 9:15). So when Christians refer to the two main parts of the Bible as the Old Testament and the New Testament, what they are really referring to are the two parts of the Bible which focus (for the most part) on the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

How does anything in this paragraph answer my question?

Regarding the New Covenant/New Testament being only for Israel (Jeremiah 31:31), just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

How does anything in this paragraph answer my question?

That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask God which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

How does anything in this paragraph answer my question?

Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have been made spiritually-circumcised Jews by God if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

How does anything in this paragraph answer my question?

The Abrahamic Covenant can be considered as a precursor of the New Covenant, with the Old Covenant (Mosaic law) being an only-temporary covenant between the time of the Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant (Galatians 3:6-29).

How does anything in this paragraph answer my question?

The Noachian Covenant, which is still in effect (proven by there still being rainbows), is that God will not flood the earth again (Genesis 9:8-17). But He will eventually burn it (2 Peter 3:10-13), in the sense of its surface.

How does anything in this paragraph answer my question?

The Davidic Covenant (Psalms 89:34-37; 2 Samuel 7:16-29) is still in effect. For Jesus Christ, at His future, Second Coming, will sit on the throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7).

How does anything in this paragraph answer my question?

The Levitic Covenant is likewise still in effect (Jeremiah 33:20-22), insofar as there are, and always will be, Jewish Christians descended from Levi. But they will operate as priests, along with all other obedient Christians (1 Peter 2:9), whether Jews or Gentiles, under the Melchisedechian priesthood of the New Covenant. For the strictly-Levitical priesthood of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished along with the letter of that law on the Cross of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:11 to 8:13, Ephesians 2:15-16).

How does anything in this paragraph answer my question?

Maybe you didn't understand my question.
Under the Old Covenant they had to obey the law or die, or have some type of punishment come upon them.
Under the Old Covenant they had to bring sacrifices for there sins.
What to you is different than these 2 things under the New Covenant?

 

[Afra]

Salvation is in no other of course!

If you have to trust in our Lord Jesus in order to be saved, does that mean that our Lord Jesus is not sufficient for salvation?

 

[MDC]

If you have to trust in our Lord Jesus in order to be saved, does that mean that our Lord Jesus is not sufficient for salvation?

Evidently he’s not according to the RCC. Being that there’s no assurance in your sacramental system of works. And your statement makes no sense unless you endorse decisional regeneration. What all free willers hold to. Faith is laying hold upon the object of eternal life, which is Christ. Faith is the means by which believers cling and trust in Christ for deliverance from sin

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

 

[Afra]

Evidently he’s not according to the RCC. Being that there’s no assurance in your sacramental system of works. And your statement makes no sense unless you endorse decisional regeneration. What all free willers hold to. Faith is laying hold upon the object of eternal life, which is Christ. Faith is the means by which believers cling and trust in Christ for deliverance from sin

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

 

[Doug Melven]

If you have to trust in our Lord Jesus in order to be saved, does that mean that our Lord Jesus is not sufficient for salvation?

Jesus is the only one we can trust to save us. Acts 4:12
We must trust Him and only Him. John 3:16

 

[Afra]

Jesus is the only one we can trust to save us. Acts 4:12
We must trust Him and only Him. John 3:16

Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord, whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.

 

[Doug Melven]

Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord, whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.

We do good works because we are saved. God gives us the power to do good works, then He gives us rewards for doing those good works.

 

[LoveofTruth]

This is merely a huge dodge of the FACTS, which are NOT on your side.
In order to "stick with Scripture", one MUST understand Greek language. But you're just ignoring the FACTS, and it's obvious why; the Greek grammar refutes your claims.

Some more thoughts and facts...But this is why i didn't want to get into this. Thats why I simply show that Jesus says in Luke 8 for a while believe..and fall away" That for a while believe should show that belief needs to be present and ongoing till the end.

"John 3:16 "For God so loved (aorist, a past point in time) the world, that he gave (aorist, a past point in time) his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present, current, progressive action)"

Grace for All

and

God Bless the Continuous Tense - John 3:16 - Whole Faith Living Earth

"
Whoever Believes
See comments above regarding the meaning of pas ho pisteuwn. There is no phrase or term here that indicates a universal ability to believe as is so often assumed by those reading this passage.Note 15] The present tense of the participle should be emphasized, however. John's use of the present tense "believe" is very significant, especially in light of his use of the aorist to refer to false believers.Note 16] The ones who receive eternal life are not those who believe once, but those who have an on-going faith.Note 17] This is his common usage in the key soteriological passages (John 3, 6, 10). When one examines Christ's teaching concerning who it is that truly believes in this fashion we discover that it is those who are given to Him by the Father (John 6:37-39) who come to Him and who believe in Him in saving fashion.Note 18] "(James White on John 3:14-18 -- An Examination)

"“Throughout this passage an important truth is presented that again might be missed by many English translations. When Jesus describes the one who comes to him and who believes in him [3:16, 5:24, 6:35, 37, 40, 47, etc.], he uses the present tense to describe this coming, believing , or, in other passages, hearing or seeing. The present tense refers to a continuous, on-going action. The Greek contrasts this kind of action against the aorist tense, which is a point action, a single action in time that is not on-going…… The wonderful promises that are provided by Christ are not for those who do not truly and continuously believe. The faith that saves is living faith, a faith that always looks to Christ as Lord and Savior.”[1](1] http://books.google.com/books?id=4V8tMJ75bnwC&pg=PA511&lpg=PA511&dq=John3:16+present+continuous&source=bl&ots=mNc238qipS&sig=-LWFgyQTumkIJHamt_B65WEfWNo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=q7NyUsS9PMuMkAeZiYHgDA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=John3%3A16%20present%20continuous&f=false)

"Before we start, I should say a little about action words. In Greek, the language of the New Testament, there are many tenses for verbs. We will discuss two: aorist and present. To put it simply, the Aorist tense describes one point in time, [Aorist Tense: The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations. The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The three most common of these are (1) a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or (2) having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or (3) merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars. The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense suffices in most cases.] while the present tense is used for current, ongoing action.[Present Tense: According to Dana and Manatee in their Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, "The fundamental significance of the present tense is the idea of progress. It is the linear tense . . . the progressive force of the present tense should always be considered as primary, especially with reference to the potential moods, which in the nature of the case do not need any 'present punctiliar' tense." Narrowing it down further, they say, "There are three varieties of the present tense in which its fundamental idea of progress is especially patent. Under 'the progressive present: "This use is manifestly nearest the root idea of the tense. It signifies action in progress , or state of persistence." In short the present tense expresses ongoing action in the present time.] Another way of contrasting the two is to think of Aorist as being geometrically represented by a point, and present by a continuous line. With this basic understanding, lets look at John 3:16:

"For God so loved [aorist, a past point in time] the world, that he gave [aorist, a past point in time] his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth [present, current, progressive action] in him should not perish [aorist, a past point in time], but have [present, current, progressive action] everlasting life."

The present tense, "that whosoever believeth in him," or in other words, "that whosoever is believing in Him" sheds a different light on the entire verse. One would expect,... the word "believe" to be aorist, showing that it is a "one-point-in-time" event. I used to say, "I believed in Christ on such and such a date, so I know I am saved." It could be asked why Jesus switched to the present tense in a verse full of aorists. The answer is that Jesus makes it utterly clear what he is really trying to say; that this belief is an acting, continual belief, and not just a past act of faith.

Notice that "have everlasting life" is also in the present tense. It does not say you will have eternal life in the past or future, but that you will currently be having eternal life. One Greek grammar [James Hewitt, New Testament Greek Hedrickson Publishers,1986).13.] explains the present tense in this way, "The present tense is basically linear or durative, ongoing in its kind of action. The durative notion may be expressed graphically by an unbroken line, since the action is simply continuous. This is known as the progressive present. Refinements of this general rule will be encountered; however, the fundamental distinction will not be negated." Applying this definition here, he who is currently, habitually and continuously believing will be currently and presently having eternal life. "

"
Whosoever (continually) Believes On Him…John 3 pt 13
"...For example consider the phrase “whosoever believes in Him”. As in the story of the brass serpent lifted up on the pole, anyone who looks up in faith to the “only begotten Son” hanging on the tree will not perish but have everlasting life, (ie be born again). Not just a particular group, but all who hear the gospel and look believingly onto Jesus…shall have life.

David Pawson, the man I mentioned earlier who wrote an insightful book about John 3:16* makes the point that the word “believes’ is in the present continuous tense.The greek language has more tenses than the English language. (I am no greek scholar, mind you, but I can read the work of others).

The present continuous tense doesn’t often translate into the English, because we don’t have one. For example, in Jesus’ teaching on prayer, Luke 11:9-10 quotes him as saying,

And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Luke 11:9-10)

But those verbs are in the Present continuous tense, they literally say “Ask and Keep on Asking, Seek and Keep on finding, knock and keep on knocking, for every one who asks and keeps on asking recieves…”. knowing the tense clears up a lot of misunderstandings.

Another example is from First John 2:15, which says “Love not the World nor the things of the world, if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him…”. But because the word ‘Love’, agape, is in the present continuous tense, it could just as easily read,

“Don’t go on loving the world, nor go on loving the things of the world…”

The word ‘believes’, is also in the present continuous tense, John 3:16 could just as well be understood to say, For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever goes on believing in Him, might not perish but have everlasting life.

Interestingly enough, Pawson points out that the love God loved the world with, is in the Aorist tense, which means that He did it once, God (once) thus loved the world…, when did God love the world? When Jesus died on the cross. The cross is the only possible meeting place between a Holy God and sinful men.

God doesn’t have a broad and ongoing relationship with the World, approving of this “good”aspect, but disapproving of that “bad”one, yet ever hoping for improvement. The Holy God has announced that as of the cross, the world is under judgment, the sentence is passed and his attitude towards it is utterly unrelenting, the world is doomed.

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.(John 12:31-32)

But “Once” and with perfect and ongoing effect, God Loved the World…by giving sinful men a way out of their dilemma, through the cross of Jesus.

But the word ‘Believes’ is present continuous tense. We are to “go on believing in Jesus” that we might ever have “eternal life”.

There are many who are so confused about this that they claim that a person could so backslide that they renounce Jesus entirely and die in their sins, but they suppose that they will be allowed into heaven, because at one point, somewhere along the line, they “believed in Jesus unto salvation”. This false doctrine flies in the face of much of scripture however, for example,

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister(Colossians 1:21-23)

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.(I Corinthians 15:1-2)

All that Jesus requires is that we believe in Him, and that we maintain faith in Jesus. But faith isn’t static, it is an ongoing dependency, an ‘abiding’ in Jesus, a constant feeding on his finished work, his person, eating and drinking his words.This is the only true ‘personal relationship’ with God.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.(John 15:1-4)"(Whosoever (continually) Believes On Him…John 3 pt 13)

etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

 

[Afra]

Evidently he’s not according to the RCC. Being that there’s no assurance in your sacramental system of works. And your statement makes no sense unless you endorse decisional regeneration. What all free willers hold to. Faith is laying hold upon the object of eternal life, which is Christ. Faith is the means by which believers cling and trust in Christ for deliverance from sin

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

 

[Afra]

We do good works because we are saved.

Plenty of atheists do good works, and all Christians continue to sin. Does that not contradict your theory?

 

[Doug Melven]

Some more thoughts and facts...But this is why i didn't want to get into this. Thats why I simply show that Jesus says in Luke 8 for a while believe..and fall away" That for a while believe should show that belief needs to be present and ongoing till the end.

"John 3:16 "For God so loved (aorist, a past point in time) the world, that he gave (aorist, a past point in time) his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present, current, progressive action)"

What exactly do you think happens once we believe according to John 3:16 in regards to being born-again?

 

[Doug Melven]

Plenty of atheists do good works, and all Christians continue to sin. Does that not contradict your theory?

Not in the least bit.
We do good works because we are saved, not to be saved.
No matter how many works an atheist does he will not be saved if he doesn't trust Christ for salvation.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What exactly do you think happens once we believe according to John 3:16 in regards to being born-again?

Jesus Christ (eternal life) if formed in us at the new birth and as we abide in him and he abides in us we walk in the light. He gives us himself and dwells with us. He is eternal life. A man can have eternal life abiding in him or not abiding , remaining in him or not remaining in him as scripture clearly teaches to the unbiased reader.

to them that receive the word with a true heart are saved in Christ as they continue in the faith

 

[Afra]

We do good works because we are saved

Well, that is a nice theory, but I do not see it in Sacred Scripture, and it seems to be inconsistent with the reality that atheists do good works, and you and all other Christians (making the assumption that you are saved) continue to sin.

If you are saved, why is it that you continue to sin, given your presumption that you do good works because you are saved?

That is, if you are taking the position that good works automatically flow from a person being saved, and we see that a person continues to sin, would it not be logical to conclude that the person is not saved, because we do not see the good works automatically flowing?

If someone believes that he trusts our Lord Jesus but continues to do do heinous crimes like rape, murder, theft, etc. what are we to say of him when we see his lack of good works?

 

[LoveofTruth]

What exactly do you think happens once we believe according to John 3:16 in regards to being born-again?

consider this section of scripture speaking to believers

"And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.


3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."(Revelation 3:1-6 KJV)

Believers can obviously be blotted out of the book and not confessed before the father. If they are not watchful and hold fast and repent.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So basically you are saying that there is no difference between Old and New Covenants.
Under the Old if they didn't follow the law they were punished with death.
According to you.
Under the New Covenant if we don't follow the law, we are punished with eternal death.

As you noted, circumcision of the heart replaced circumcision of the flesh.
How does saying that circumcision of the flesh had been replaced relate to the fact the seal of the Holy Spirit can be broken?

No,,,there's a big difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

The Mosaic Covenant
was conditional...and Bilateral
You shall be my people and I will be your God.
The condition was that the people had to obey God.
There are blessings and curses to this Covenant, see Deuteronomy 28, whole chapter. Or check out:
Blessings: Leviticus 26:3-13 Deuteronomy 28:1-14
Curses: Leviticus 26:14-46 Deuteronomy 28:15-68
This alliance made man aware that he was a sinner by being given the 10 commandments. It would also serve as a teacher in the New Covenant.
God made 5 promises:
Exodus 19:5 Israel will be God's own possession, IF they obey.
Exodus 19:6 Israel will be a Kingdom of Priests.
Exodus 19:6 Isreal will be a holy nation.
Exodus 23:22 God will protect Israel, IF they obey.
Exodus 34:6-7 God promises His mercy and grace to forgive sin.

Man's part was to have faith and obey the commandments.
But in the O.T. we see the rebellion of Israel.
Numbers 14:11, Deuteronomy 1:32, 2 Kings 17:14, etc.
See also Hebrews 3:16

The New Covenant
Unconditional,,,God does it all
Unilateral, man has nothing to add
Jesus was the last sacrifice
God will write the Law within the heart (it is NOT abolished)
Those in the NC will know God personally
God will forgive the sins of those in the covenant
The New Covenant can work because there is a spiritual transformation with the possibility of obedience (unlike the O.C.)
The heart is defective and by nature does not lean toward God but toward egotism...Jesus changes the heart.
Jesus cuts the commandments down to two:
Love God
Love yourself as your neighbor
We obey from strength - the strength comes through the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1-4
Our love for Jesus makes us WANT to obey Him and remain in the covenant.

There's much more.
The moral law is still with us. God is a moral being and the moral law will never be abolished, however, we do have a new way to follow it and we should WANT to follow it if we love Jesus.
John 14:15
New American Standard Bible
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

 

[GodsGrace101]

B4 you tell DM anything, I will expose your LIE here and now.

From post #591:

You said:
"Ephesians 4:30 Provide further proof, besides Ephesians 1:13-14 about how we are sealed. One verse does not a doctrine make. And, BTW, I DID give you a reply to being sealed."

To which I replied:
"First, let's look at this verse:
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Do you agree that grieving the Spirit is a very serious issue? I do. Not something I'd advise anyone to do.

Yet, as serious as that is, what did Paul add? "with whom you were sealed for the day redemption". Do you understand what that DAY is about? It's when our physical bodies are changed at the rapture. That's ultimate salvation, when we enter eternity.

So, even when we grieve the Spirit, we ARE STILL SEALED with the Spirit.

If grieving (or anything else that highly offends you that Christians might do) the Spirit WOULD lead to loss of salvation, WHY oh WHY would Paul have reminded sealed believers that they are still sealed for the day of redemption?

Instead, if salvation could be lost, Paul would have WARNED them right then and there about such a result.

He would have written something like this:
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or you will be unsealed.

Or, And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or you will lose salvation."

LIE exposed. I did answer your question and explain the verse.

But, where is your answer to my question?


What do you mean "once"? Where does the Bible specify any # of times?

Seems you're only interested in your own opinion.


Uh, where does the Holy Spirit go when you sin? Does He leave? Do you have any support for your presumptions from Scripture?


Because we're sealed for the day of redemption.

Or, don't words mean anything to you?


Well, the Bible does speak to this, since it seems you don't know.

When we're regenerated, or born again, it is the human spirit that is regenerated and is the place the Holy Spirit lives. Not in our flesh or soul. So we now have 2 natures, the sin nature, the one we're born with and the new creation. 2 Cor 5:17.

When we function from the original human (sin) nature, we sin. But when we function from our new nature, we cannot sin, because that's where the Holy Spirit functions.

1 John 3:9 explains this.


Well, the consequences are harsh, but the Bible never says anyone loses salvation.

Your presumption isn't found in Scripture.

Instead, the consequences are painful discipline. Heb 12:11

We can grieve the Holy Spirit ONCE, or on different occasions, BUT if we grieve the Holy Spirit continuously we do risk losing our salvation.


Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not extinguish the Spirit.


Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

I agree with you that we have two natures living side by side within us. Our sin nature, and our spirit nature which we received at salvation, or some understand this to be the Holy Spirit dwelling within us.

1 John 3:9
This would contradict 1 John 1:9 where John tells us that if we sin we can confess our sins and God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. So how to reconcile?
1 John 3:9 is speaking about Love which is the title of that chapter in some bibles. IOW, we who love God can sin, but we cannot PRACTICE sin because THIS would let us be of the devil. If we commit one sin we are not of the devil.

This is why I was asking you about grieving the Holy Spirit and if one sin would do it (but you never answered). One sin will not cause us to lose salvation, but practicing sin, or living a life of sin, WILL make us lose our salvation.

As John says in 1 John 3:10 the children of the devil are manifest because they do not do the righteousness of God.
1 John 3:12 Cain belonged to the "wicked one" because his works were evil.

If OUR works are evil, we are of the evil one and are thus lost.
The sealing of the Holy Spirit functions only for as long as we remain in the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace101]

A tough guy, huh?

I'm a girl.

 

[GodsGrace101]

This is not at all clear.
Yes, perhaps he came up with the idea of osas, as God did not provide it, but
'Perseverance of the saints' is truth as it is in Scripture,
but is 'visibly' the opposite of osas which doesn't require perseverance at all,
and which isn't truth to rely on, nor in harmony with all Scripture or God's Plan.

OK, I'll make it very clear.
I dislike Calvinism -- it does not represent the nature of God which is LOVE.

In the acronym TULIP in calvinism, the P stands for:
Perseverance of the saints.
It then became knows as
Preservation of the saints.
It then became known at
Eternal Security
It then became known as
Once Saved Always Saved

One thing is for sure:
They're all wrong.