Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[Doug Melven]

"3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"(1 Corinthians 3:4,5 KJV)

The word "carnal"in Greek means "pertaining to the flesh...by implication unregenerate..fleshly"

Let's look at the context of the verse.
3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Note that Paul calls them "brethren".
He says they were carnal, as you pointed out this means fleshly. Then he says they are babes in Christ.
Even though they were carnal, walking as men, they were still in Christ.
They were not walking like mature believers.

Men will be gathering the branches? As @FreeGrace2 would say, this is a metaphore. Do you suppose there are trees in heaven from which branches will be cut?
If there's a branch on a tree and it's CUT OFF, it means it has now been SEVERED from that tree and is no longer a PART of the tree. It will eventually whither and die. Yes, it speaking to eternal life. Jesus was serious about eternal life, not crowns and not anything else except to teach us how to get to heaven.
1 John 2:17
1 John 5:13
John 3:16


All of the above are true but apparently misunderstood.
Which one should I post about?


About what? About future sins.
Please post a scripture since YOU brought it up.



Did he actually say what?
Syntax please.

If Jesus IS the light...
And men hate the LIGHT...
Then those men hate JESUS...

Jesus Himself said so...
Mathew 5:11-12
11“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12“Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Many hate Christianity and also hate us.
The dark cannot stand the light.
Move a stone where insects have gathered underneath to hide from the light...they scatter.

When I said Scripture please, it was directly below a quote you made.
You made this statement with no Scriptural backing whatsoever. So I asked for you to provide a Scripture.
When I said, Did He actually say that, it was directly below a post where you were quoting John 3:20 and you said things were in that verse that Jesus did not say.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Let's look at the context of the verse.
Note that Paul calls them "brethren".
He says they were carnal, as you pointed out this means fleshly. Then he says they are babes in Christ.
Even though they were carnal, walking as men, they were still in Christ.
They were not walking like mature believers.

That was not the point of my discussion I wasn't bringing up that verse for the reason you are. i simply was showing that the word "acting" is not in the Greek or the text.

But now that you bring it up.

Notice that Paul says he speaks to two groups one "carnal" and the other as "babes in Christ".

Yes even believers may sin and when they do they are in darkness and carnal and need to repent. Paul warned the Corinthians that some have not the knowledge of God.

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.'

These would have been the carnal ones and lost ones. They seem to need to awake and sin not.

Some were dying at the Lord supper for sin

1 Corinthians 11:30 KJV
"For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."

and others had sex with their fathers wife and in great sin needed to be handed over to Satan that their spirit MAY be saved (may be saved if they repent and come back to faith).

1 Corinthians 5:5 KJV
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife....To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Some were listening to false ministers in 2 Cor 11 who were children of the devil more carnal (fleshly unregenerate) ones in darkness.

"13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."(2 Corinthians 11;13-15 KJV)

Paul also told the Corinthians to even examine themselves if they were in the faith. As we saw some weren't and some had not the knowledge of God.

"5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"(2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

Some were in all sorts of sins as he warns of and he tells them to repent "

"20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed."

So, I could show more. But the point is Paul said

Romans 8:6
"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

Paul shows that to be carnally minded is to be in the flesh and not in the Spirit

"7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."(Romans 8:7-9 KJV)

So without faith it is impossible to please God and the carnal mind and man is not able to please God. Therefore they do not walk in faith and the Spirit. They do not abide in Christ, for if they abide in Christ they sinneth not. They have not the Spirit of Christ as Paul said if they walk in the carnal mind in the flesh. To be carnally minded is death Paul says. It is not to be in the life in the Spirit.

So thank you for bringing that up it proves what I am saying further and what 1 John is saying all through that book.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus said those who come to Him He will in no way cast out.
But you say there is a condition they have to meet.
But Jesus didn't put any conditions on it.

The condition is even in that verse to "come unto him" Jesus cried for all to come unto him

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

he even gave more conditions to the rich young ruler

Luke 18:22
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

He also shows that some will come and others will not as he said

"20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."(John 3:20,21 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus said those who come to Him He will in no way cast out.
But you say there is a condition they have to meet.
But Jesus didn't put any conditions on it.

I am curious as to what you think the difference is between the Old and New Covenants.
Because we are not under the Old Covenant, we are under the New Covenant. Yet you quote verses from the Old Covenant thinking they pertain to the new.

All scripture is profitable and I can use many verses to apply to many different aspects. In the OT we read that God does not do iniquity. I can use such verses to show God's character forever is the same and that he does not change etc.

I would have to know what verses you are referring to that I quoted and how I used them and for what. I believe i used them all correctly.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Really? Where does the Bible say he "had to be converted again"?

Do you claim to be a teacher of the word and you don't know these things? I marvel

Jesus told Peter that he was going to deny him and by doing this Peter fell away for a time and needed to repent as he did and come back to where he once was ( in a saved state with Jesus). Peter was once saved or converted from a dark sinful life and then he sinned and denied Jesus and had to be converted "again".

Jesus said

Luke 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

"converted " means to come back again where you once were. To turn back again etc.

Peter had once confessed that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God

Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

and by doing so he evidenced that he was saved and had the Spirit of God in him and born again. John shows us this when he said

"15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."(1 John 4:15 KJV) Peter said Jesus was the Son of God showing that God dwelt in him. Jesus also blessed Peter when he spoke his confession.

and we read

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.(1 John 5:1 KJV)

"

 

[Doug Melven]

Are you a Gnostic Christian?

No, I am not a Gnostic Christian.
Jesus said That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
My spirit was born-again, my flesh(my body) was not born-again.

 

[Doug Melven]

I would have to know what verses you are referring to that I quoted and how I used them and for what. I believe i used them all correctly.

You used a verse in Joshua that said something to the effect of if the people chased after other gods, God would punish them.
This is not applicable to a New Covenant believer.
Jeremiah 31
31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 54:9-10
54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

 

[Doug Melven]

What do you mean by "grieve the Holy Spirit"?
Do you mean one sin?
Or do you mean a life of sin?

Knowing He is the Holy Spirit and knowing how holy He is.
I would have to say that every single sin grieves Him.
As sin hurts us, the ones who committed the sin, yes He is grieved.
Holiness is a more prominent characteristic of God than even love.
In Isaiah 6 the angels don't cry love, love, love.
No, they cry holy, holy, holy.

I for one am exceedingly thankful that He promised that He would not impute my sins to, or hold them against me or remember them anymore.

 

[Doug Melven]

The Greek and tenses do not fight against what I am saying I simply do not want to bog down many with complex grammatical arguments

But you do. Almost every single verse you bog us down with what the tense is.
You are always saying that something is implied.
And when freegrace2 shows you the correct tense now you say you don't want to get bogged down with the tenses.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You used a verse in Joshua that said something to the effect of if the people chased after other gods, God would punish them.
This is not applicable to a New Covenant believer.
Jeremiah 31
31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 54:9-10
54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

Idolatry is still a great sin today as it was in the past

I used the scripture properly

Quote me the exact verse and have many post all over

If possible quote the post number

 

[LoveofTruth]

But you do. Almost every single verse you bog us down with what the tense is.
You are always saying that something is implied.
And when freegrace2 shows you the correct tense now you say you don't want to get bogged down with the tenses.

No I use scripture and occasionally I go to the Greek meaning of words if the contention is argued

But this discussion of the tenses and many aspects of language can go on and on just check out some of the forums on this topic

I can comment briefly about it and by the way the tenses prove what I am saying and do not prove FreeGrace2

The best is when we see clear scripture that says a person can believe for a while then fall away it shows clearly that the belief connected to salvation must continue till the end and not just for a while. This would show present and ongoing tenses simply by the clarity of the verse.

 

[Doug Melven]

Notice that Paul says he speaks to two groups one "carnal" and the other as "babes in Christ".

3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
How can you possibly get 2 groups out of this?
Can't speak to these Corinthians as spiritual but as carnal, EVEN as babes in Christ.
There is no second group he is speaking to.

and others had sex with their fathers wife and in great sin needed to be handed over to Satan that their spirit MAY be saved (may be saved if they repent and come back to faith).

So you are saying someone can lose there salvation and then get saved again?
Impossible. That is the point that is being made in Hebrews 6:1-6. For someone to lose there salvation is ridiculous, to get it back again is impossible.

The condition is even in that verse to "come unto him" Jesus cried for all to come unto him

So now we have to come to Him to be saved each day?
Or do we have to be saved again each time we sin?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Can't speak to these Corinthians as spiritual but as carnal, EVEN as babes in Christ.
There is no second group he is speaking to.

the word "even" means "also and with other parties, both, " in greek, showing distinction.

to be carnal is to be sold under sin and at enmity against God

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:..."

there is no such thing as a carnal christian (at least that's how I see it so far). But babes in Christ is different. They may fall and stumble and need top repent often and be in danger more so than a mature believer. But they are still not the same as carnal.

Paul said to the Corinthians

"6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:...12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"(1Cor 2:6,12-14 KJV)

Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh. They do not walk in it and live fleshly. They have the mind of Christ not a carnal mind. That is as they abide in Christ and bring EVERY though to the captivity of Christ

 

[Bible2+]

zoidar said in post #524:

I think we should ask us this. What does it mean that God is LOVE?

Note that God being love (1 John 4:8,16) does not mean that He loves everyone (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13), just as God being a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) does not mean that He is consuming everyone in fire (Revelation 14:10-11). Also, God chastens those whom He loves during their lifetime (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6), but not everyone receives chastening from God during their lifetime (Hebrews 12:7-8). Therefore, God does not love everyone.

And not only that. For God even hates nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect people in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.

 

[Bible2+]

FreeGrace2 said in post #531:

None of these verses, nor any other, say that Judas was "saved", as you claim here.

Note that nothing says or requires that Judas was never saved.

FreeGrace2 said in post #531:

He was elected to serve the purpose of betraying Christ.

Note that election does not refer to betrayal, but salvation.

That is, the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13), through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65), or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

Nonelect people cannot ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect people (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

FreeGrace2 said in post #531:

Jesus made it painfully (to you) clear in John 6:70 that he was a devil when Jesus chose him.

Note that John 6:70 does not say or require that Judas was a devil at the time that he was chosen and empowered as an apostle to cast out devils and cure diseases (Luke 9:1).

FreeGrace2 said in post #531:

Second, those who believe right now SHALL NOT come into condemnation in the future.

Note that some who believe will come into condemnation in the future (Matthew 24:48-51).

FreeGrace2 said in post #531:

Which is why there are NO verses anywhere that teach that salvation can be lost.

Note that there are many verses that teach that salvation can be lost (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

FreeGrace2 said in post #531:

And Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS in order to not perish.

Note that Jesus did give conditions in order to not perish (e.g. Luke 13:3).

FreeGrace2 said in post #531:

As to your claim that a believer can "jump out of God's hand himself" is absurd.

Note that a believer jumping out of God's hand, and thereby "falling away", is scriptural (e.g. Hebrews 6:4-8).

FreeGrace2 said in post #531:

If you are a person, then EVEN YOURSELF cannot remove yourself from God's hand.

John 10:28 means any person other than ourselves. For Christians are not kept as prisoners, but retain their free will, by which they wrongly can depart from God (1 Timothy 4:1).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #533:

Jesus DIDN'T say "if you continue in My word, then you will STAY SAVED" . . .

1 Timothy 4:16 means that if we continue in Jesus' doctrine, we will stay saved.

FreeGrace2 said in post #533:

And, the ONLY condition for being saved is to believe in Christ.

Note that believing in Christ is not the only condition for being saved ultimately (e.g. Matthew 7:21).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #535:

I hate to break it to you, but you do NOT have any power to effect your own salvation.

Note that Christians have been given power to effect their ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #544:

Yes, believers are encouraged to continue in the faith. But, for what purpose?

If you answer, "to continue to be saved", you're going to have to provide clear evidence of the Bible saying that.

Note that John 3:36 says that if we believe not, we shall not be saved ultimately.

 

[Bible2+]

Doug Melven said in post #560:

Jesus said those who come to Him He will in no way cast out.
But you say there is a condition they have to meet.
But Jesus didn't put any conditions on it.

Note that Jesus did put conditions on believers not being cast out (e.g. Revelation 3:16).

Doug Melven said in post #560:

I am curious as to what you think the difference is between the Old and New Covenants.

The Old Covenant was the covenant which God made with ancient Israel through Moses (Exodus 24:8, Deuteronomy 5:3) after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (Jeremiah 31:32) in the fifteenth century BC. The New Covenant is a different, current covenant, which God has made with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31) through Jesus Christ since His first coming in the first century AD (Hebrews 12:24, Matthew 26:28).

The Bible, in English translations, sometimes also calls the New Covenant the New Testament. For the original Greek word "diatheke" (G1242) can be translated into English as either "covenant" (Hebrews 8:8) or "testament" (Hebrews 9:15). So when Christians refer to the two main parts of the Bible as the Old Testament and the New Testament, what they are really referring to are the two parts of the Bible which focus (for the most part) on the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Regarding the New Covenant/New Testament being only for Israel (Jeremiah 31:31), just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask God which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have been made spiritually-circumcised Jews by God if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

-

The Abrahamic Covenant can be considered as a precursor of the New Covenant, with the Old Covenant (Mosaic law) being an only-temporary covenant between the time of the Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant (Galatians 3:6-29).

The Noachian Covenant, which is still in effect (proven by there still being rainbows), is that God will not flood the earth again (Genesis 9:8-17). But He will eventually burn it (2 Peter 3:10-13), in the sense of its surface.

The Davidic Covenant (Psalms 89:34-37; 2 Samuel 7:16-29) is still in effect. For Jesus Christ, at His future, Second Coming, will sit on the throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7).

The Levitic Covenant is likewise still in effect (Jeremiah 33:20-22), insofar as there are, and always will be, Jewish Christians descended from Levi. But they will operate as priests, along with all other obedient Christians (1 Peter 2:9), whether Jews or Gentiles, under the Melchisedechian priesthood of the New Covenant. For the strictly-Levitical priesthood of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished along with the letter of that law on the Cross of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:11 to 8:13, Ephesians 2:15-16).

 

[GodsGrace101]

Oh, quite a claim. Can you back it up with ANY verses? What makes your claim true?


Right. let's just ignore what any word means.


I hate to break it to you, but you do NOT have any power to effect your own salvation.

What you DO have the power (choice) to do is to either be IN fellowship with the Lord or OUT of fellowship with the Lord, as I showed in my last post about the commands regarding the Holy Spirit.


What "definitely happens before we know Christ"? I'm not following your line of thought.

OK. Here's what's happening with our conversations.
You keep telling me I'm wrong and YOU don't back it up with any scripture...
However, you keep asking ME for scripture.
I explain to you what YOU post but you do not do the same for me. You just overlook the verses I give you.

Your opinions and speeches don't impress me.
Scripture does.

Unless you care to explain the following, our conversation could end right here.
Ephesians 4:30 Provide further proof, besides Ephesians 1:13-14 about how we are sealed. One verse does not a doctrine make. And, BTW, I DID give you a reply to being sealed. There's no such concept in the N.T. We can be unsealed at any time.

2 Peter 2:20-22
Please explain how AFTER escaping the defilement of the world by our Savior Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled in them and their condition becomes as a pig that has returned to its vomit.

Please explain John 5:28-29

Please explain
Luke 8:31
Some believed FOR A WHILE and in time of temptation FELL AWAY.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Absolutely true!! But not for maintain salvation. There are no verses about that.

What most OSNAS types think is that abiding is about the person having the power to remove themselves from being IN Christ. Well, no one has that much power.

To abide is something we DO. But it has nothing to do with salvation, because we have NOTHING to do about being saved. All we can do is receive salvation by faith. Eph 2:8

So, to abide is about being IN fellowship. That's a choice we make.

Paul gave us 4 specific commands regarding the Holy Spirit
1. be filled with the Spirit Eph 5;18
2. walk by the Spirit Gal 5:16
3. stop grieving the Spirit Eph 4:30
4. stop quenching the Spirit 1 Thess 5:19

The first 2 commands are about being IN fellowship. The lasts 2 are about being OUT of fellowship if we are doing those things.

I wonder if you are aware of these commands and their significance?

Even WHEN a believer grieves the Spirit, Paul reminds us of what the Spirit has done for us in Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Do you understand what "for the day of redemption" refers to? We are eternally secure on the basis of being sealed by the Spirit; EVEN WHEN we grieve Him.

P.S.
Could you please post some scripture regarding having fellowship being the same as salvation? I can't think of any.
thanks.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I wish you were kidding here. Of course you DON'T.

Aren't you aware of the clear distinction between grace and works?

Start with Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

then go to Eph 2:8,9.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Then Rom 11:6 - And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.


It means exactly what it says. Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. No different than John 5:24 and 10:28.


I do. Because the Bible so indicates.

Consider John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Or Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

To believe is to receive salvation. It is passive. You do nothing to be saved. You receive salvation on the basis of believing, which is not doing.

If we have fellowship with God, we are saved.
If we DO NOT have fellowship with God, how can we be saved?


I guess not.


Please show me where I've ever "tried to change the meaning of any word".


If you think believing is doing something, which is really a work, then you are confused.

1. You're making assumptions about me again. Guess you can't help it. Did you ever read Mathew 5:3,5,8,9??

2. Romans 4:4-5
Romans 11:6
Really FG2, Paul was speaking to Jews who were accustomed to being saved by doing works. I don't know anyone on these forums that believes you can be saved by doing works!

3. Ephesians 2:8-9 Please check out Ephesians 2:10. This happens AFTER we're saved. God does require us to do works, or good deeds, or whatever He wishes for us to do while in this life. If we love Him, we follow His commandments. John 14:15

4. Yes, John 3:16 and John 5:24 and 10:28 are ALL in the present tense. BELIEVE, NOT BELIEVED. We must believe TODAY.

5. Here's John 1:12 - I don't know what version you post from.
NASB
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Again, PRESENT TENSE. Those WHO BELIEVE can become children of God. Stop believing, stop being a child of God.

6. You didn't explain the word BELIEVE. You just told me I'm wrong.
Here...Believe can be a noun or a verb. The Greek understands it to be a verb, as did Jesus. To believe in HIM meant to follow Him, if we follow Him, we are to do the works He did.
John 14:12
12“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." NASB

Believe means:

trust the person
learn from the person
obey the person
agree with the person
do what the person teaches
use them as an example
follow them in all ways

There is some DOING up above. Not just believing mentally.
After we are saved, God does expect us to DO SOMETHING to further His Kingdom.

 

[GodsGrace101]

What does John 10:28 and Ephesians 1:13 have in common? Lol they were both followers of Christ. The branches who are grafted in are pruned why? Beverage they already produced fruit and they are pruned so they can produce more fruit.

Correct.
The branches that are producing fruit are pruned so that they could produce even more fruit.
The branches that are NOT producing any fruit are cut off.
They are of no purpose...
Mathew 7:19
John 15:2