Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[BNR32FAN]

My Bible (the KJV) says "Can faith save him?" Faith in general, not any particular kind of faith, because faith is faith.

Secondly, Jesus said that a man must be born again to enter into the kingdom of God. And how is a man born again (that is, born of God)?

1 John 5:1 "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST IS BORN OF GOD."

Checkmate.

And repentance? Where does faith alone teach repentance?

 

[Call me Nic]

And repentance? Where does faith alone teach repentance?

Repentance is the idea of turning from something to something.

So to repent from talking is to turn from talking and to turn to silence. To repent from sin is to turn from sin and to stop sinning. To repent and be converted means: to turn from disbelief and believe (thereby being converted.)

True biblical repentance (that of turning from disbelief) is very much apart of faith, because you must turn from having no faith to having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 4:17 - "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Looking to the parallel passage in Mark 1:14-15 - "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL (turn from disbelief and believe the Gospel)."
Biblical repentance is not turning from your sins (repenting from sin), its turning from disbelief. To stop sinning to do the work of the law and is to do work in general, which doesn't grant salvation. Only accessing the grace of God by faith gives salvation (Romans 5:2).

 

[BNR32FAN]

My Bible (the KJV) says "Can faith save him?" Faith in general, not any particular kind of faith, because faith is faith.

Secondly, Jesus said that a man must be born again to enter into the kingdom of God. And how is a man born again (that is, born of God)?

1 John 5:1 "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST IS BORN OF GOD."

Checkmate.

The Greek version says

James 2:14

14 What [is] the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?

14 Τί (what) G5101 IPro-NNS ὄφελος (use) G3786 N-NNS ἀδελφοί (brethren) G80 N-VMP μου (my) G1473 PPro-G1S ἐὰν (if) G1437 Conj πίστιν (faith) G4102 N-AFS λέγῃ (says) G3004 V-PSA-3S τις (someone) G5100 IPro-NMS ἔχειν (has) G2192 V-PNA ἔργα (works) G2041 N-ANP δὲ (and) G1161 Conj μὴ (no) G3361 Adv ἔχῃ (has) G2192 V-PSA-3S μὴ (no) G3361 Adv δύναται (can) G1410 V-PIM/P-3S ἡ (the) G3588 Art-NFS πίστις (faith) G4102 N-NFS σῶσαι (save) G4982 V-ANA αὐτόν (him) G846 PPro-AM3S

Can the faith or that faith save him. Indicating that type of faith.

Faith Definition
4102. pistis ►
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

According to the Greek word pistis (faith) believing is not the full definition. Faithfulness and fidelity have nothing to do with believing. They are attributed to obeniance, devotion and loyalty.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Repentance is the idea of turning from something to something.

So to repent from talking is to turn from talking and to turn to silence. To repent from sin is to turn from sin and to stop sinning. To repent and be converted means: to turn from disbelief and believe (thereby being converted.)

True biblical repentance (that of turning from disbelief) is very much apart of faith, because you must turn from having no faith to having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 4:17 - "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Looking to the parallel passage in Mark 1:14-15 - "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL (turn from disbelief and believe the Gospel)."
Biblical repentance is not turning from your sins (repenting from sin), its turning from disbelief. To stop sinning to do the work of the law and is to do work in general, which doesn't grant salvation. Only accessing the grace of God by faith gives salvation (Romans 5:2).

But John 10:28 and John 3:16 make no mention of repentance being necessary for salvation. Do you believe repentance isn’t necessary for salvation?

 

[Call me Nic]

But John 10:28 and John 3:16 make no mention of repentance being necessary for salvation. Do you believe repentance isn’t necessary for salvation?

Remember, the context of repentance is key. Repentance is simply a verb that means "to turn from something." So, repentance is very much required in regards to salvation when it comes to a person turning from disbelief and coming to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the necessary repentance. Other types of repentance aren't necessary.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Remember, the context of repentance is key. Repentance is simply a verb that means "to turn from something." So, repentance is very much required in regards to salvation when it comes to a person turning from disbelief and coming to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the necessary repentance. Other types of repentance aren't necessary.

Ok so being born again isn’t required?

 

[Call me Nic]

Ok so being born again isn’t required?

Jesus says that to enter into the kingdom of God, we must be born again (John 3:3).
What must we do to be born again? Believe that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 5:1.
How do we come to believe that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God? Turn from (repent) from disbelief and believe the Gospel (Mark 1:15, Acts of the Apostles 3:19), and act in faith to call upon the name of the Lord (Acts of the Apostles 2:21, Romans 10:13).
Then, after we believe and call upon the name of the Lord in faith, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13).

Make sense?

Must we be born again to enter heaven? Yes. Must we believe to be born again? Yes. Must we repent from disbelief to believe? Yes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Repentance is the idea of turning from something to something.

So to repent from talking is to turn from talking and to turn to silence. To repent from sin is to turn from sin and to stop sinning. To repent and be converted means: to turn from disbelief and believe (thereby being converted.)

True biblical repentance (that of turning from disbelief) is very much apart of faith, because you must turn from having no faith to having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 4:17 - "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Looking to the parallel passage in Mark 1:14-15 - "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL (turn from disbelief and believe the Gospel)."
Biblical repentance is not turning from your sins (repenting from sin), its turning from disbelief. To stop sinning to do the work of the law and is to do work in general, which doesn't grant salvation. Only accessing the grace of God by faith gives salvation (Romans 5:2).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nicolaus Mourer said: ↑
Remember, the context of repentance is key. Repentance is simply a verb that means "to turn from something." So, repentance is very much required in regards to salvation when it comes to a person turning from disbelief and coming to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the necessary repentance. Other types of repentance aren't necessary.

Ok so being born again isn’t required?

For the thread:

Mr. BNR32FAN asks a question that is irrelevant to the discussion. We are not only not "required" to give ourselves new birth, we have NO POWER or AUTHORITY to do that.

It is God who chooses to give the believer new birth.

iow, it comes with the territory. When a person believes in Christ, God does this:
1. save the believer John 3:16
2. give eternal life to the believer John 6:40
3. give new birth or regenerate the believer Titus 3:5
4. forgive the believer Acts 10:43
5. justify the believer Rom 5:1
6. elect the believer to good works Eph 1:4

He's not required to do any of this. But He has promised to do all these things. That is grace.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Among other things, I said this:
"If you think believing is doing something, which is really a work, then you are confused."

If you fit the description, I wasn't assuming anything at all.


Yes. Do you have a point?


Uh, not, it doesn't just "happen". Let's actually read it again. Just for fun.
" For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Did you notice the words "to do"? This is what believers were created TO DO. It does NOT say WILL DO, as it seems you presume.


Absolutely true, but not in order to not perish. Which is the claim of OSNAS.


This clearly sounds like a presumption that we must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

Except those who can read Grammar textbooks about the Greek language know that the present tense for 'believe' does NOT mean that the action of believing MUST CONTINUE in order for the results of believing, which is salvation, to continue.

That is a false claim.

This claim is clearly refuted by Paul's answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said, "believe (aorist tense) and you will be saved".

What is the aorist tense? First, it's NOT a present tense. It refers to completed action, which means something that occurred in the past. Also, generally, it is a point in time action, with no concept of continuing action.


See above for proper understanding of the Greek present tense.


Uh, no. The noun is 'belief', the verb is 'believe'.


Apparently you haven't consulted any lexicon recently, huh? The Greek word for 'believe' has NOTHING about following. It's all about trusting.

Excuse me, but "pisteuou' does NOT include "obey" as you presume. That Greek word is 'pietho', which can mean obey, but also believe.

Yes, BELIEVING, as understood by those who wrote and read the bible DOES mean "doing something". If you are a disciple of Jesus you will DO SOMETHING. For instance, you will feed the hungry, visit the sick, follow the commandments, pray, receive communion in memory of our Lord, witness, etc.

If you've read Mathew 5,3-10 and you don't understand my point, it means you haven't read it with your heart.

Ephesians 2:10
God saves us. This is justification. He saved us to join Him in the good work He has gotten us ready for. After all, WE are God's hands and feet.

The N.T. is chock full of warnings. §They are warnings to us so that WE WILL NOT PERISH. Smart persons will understand this, others will understand it the way they wish and risk not making heaven.
John 5:28-29

Yes. We must continue to believe if we are to continue to be saved.

If we have faith................we are saved.
If we do not have faith.......we are not saved.
Ditto for believe.
1 Timothy 4:10
Hebrews 11:6

None of my claims are false. You must BELIEVE, present tense in English, to be saved at the time of your death. If you do not believe at the time of your death, you will not be saved.
Believe means now, at this present time.
John 3:16
Hebrews 10:39
We are not to give up but to trust and have faith until the end to survive.

As for Greek lexicons and the such.
You're right, I don't consult them.
Why?
Because it's not all as easy as it may seem.
I have it on good authority that the aorist tense is not so simple to understand so unless you have a PhD after your name, I'd prefer to stick to the English.

After all, those that translated the bible did so in such a fashion that we would be able to understand what the writers meant to teach us to know how to get and keep salvation.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Part 1

Well, he's just wrong.

Lol. sorry I had to laugh at that weak response. "he's just wrong" is not an argument at all.
This is why I avoid going down this road. Not because I don't have an argument but because of this very thing. I can quote many who say just as James White said there and similar understanding and the Greek tense does justify what White said. But you will quote those who say it doesn't and back and forth and one expert to the next expert etc.

That is why I showed in Luke 8 that a person can for "a while believe" and then fall away. For a while shows that believing is not a one time event in the past. Jesus did not say those who "believed" in me (past tense) but those who believe.

This is where believe for a while shows clearly that belief is not a one time event. Yes it takes place at a certain time when that person repents and believes. Then they have saving faith as they continue in that faith. But if they go on in that belief for a while and then temptation comes and they have an evil heart of unbelief, they can depart from the living God and fall away. This shows that their belief which showed they were saved was lost and so they are no longer saved. those who Believe can become turn to an evil heart of unbelief as scripture shows.

"12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"(Hebrews 3;12-14 KJV)

Clearly this passage is written to believers, brethren and he shows that they need to daily have that belief or they can be hardened through sin and then have an evil heart of UNBELIEF and depart from God. This unbelief is possible even if they are believing daily if they don't take heed and beware and guard their hearts. This unbelief is a loss of salvation, relationship, fellowship and communion with God and we know that no unbeliever will enter heaven but instead are headed for the lake of fire. if they die in that state without repenting they are lost.

Notice that he did not say this error that you seem to be implying . "don't worry brethren you once believed you will always believe. You can never have an evil heart of unbelief because belief is a past action and does not need to be ongoing. It doesn't matter if daily you are tempted with sin, your heart can never be evil again and you can never truly depart from God you only loose fellowship"

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus says that to enter into the kingdom of God, we must be born again (John 3:3).
What must we do to be born again? Believe that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 5:1.
How do we come to believe that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God? Turn from (repent) from disbelief and believe the Gospel (Mark 1:15, Acts of the Apostles 3:19), and act in faith to call upon the name of the Lord (Acts of the Apostles 2:21, Romans 10:13).
Then, after we believe and call upon the name of the Lord in faith, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13).

Make sense?

Must we be born again to enter heaven? Yes. Must we believe to be born again? Yes. Must we repent from disbelief to believe? Yes.

Then we can sin all we want and don’t need to do any good works and still be saved?

 

[Call me Nic]

Then we can sin all we want and don’t need to do any good works and still be saved?

Justification is by faith, for the Just shall live by faith.

To repent from sin is to turn from evil, and the Bible classifies that as works.

I'm not advocating sinning, because once we are saved and continue in sin, God will punish you severely while on earth due to the fact that you are now a son of God saved by grace through faith; he will chastise you the more you grieve the holy Spirit. But you will never lose your salvation, because salvation is not* conditional based upon your own merits - it's based upon the love and mercy of God, to give us that which we don't deserve (grace), and to save us from that which we all deserve (mercy).

I mean, how many sins are you supposed to stop committing in order to be saved? It only takes one to condemn to hell, and we've all sinned at least once today. To sin is to transgress the law of God, but thankfully, we're no longer under the law (Ephesians 2:15), but under grace (Romans 6:14) through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which is only accessed by faith (Romans 5:2).

 

[LoveofTruth]

Part 2

The aorist tense is used as well for coming, believing, eating, etc.

The Greek tenses here can be argued, but they do not help with the case you are making. Clearly faith, belief, abiding is a daily thing that must be continued in. To "live" we must abide in Christ. We don't just live once in the past. Jesus also speaks about picking up our cross daily. This is a daily faith. The just shall live by faith (daily).

An example. If a man was on a small island and no food was there and suddenly a large box dropped from heaven and had a note that said eat this food and live.

Does that mean he has to eat only once and he will live or does he need to daily eat to live? Obviously when he eats the first time he lives and that was a present action. The next day if he says I ate (past tense) yesterday so I don't need to eat to live today. That would be wrong. He needs to daily eat the food to live. To live means to go on in the life he has.

Similarily if Jesus said we must eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life in us. Then that life we live in is daily nourished by our eating his word. We read

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Jeremiah 15:16
Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts."

John 6:63
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

John 8:31
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked....the word of God abideth in you...24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."(1 John 2:6, 14, 24,25 KJV)

We also see another example of eating daily and typological of salvation and the true bread

"31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst....48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. [this is also in line with 1 Cor. 15 the gospel that saves if we keep in memory what was preached then we have that life] 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."(John 6:31-34 KJV)

Notice that to live (daily) they had to eat the manna. The manna was a type of the true bread Jesus Christ and his word. They did not just eat that bread one day, they had to daily gathered it. Jesus says he is the true bread of life. If we use his example we must daily abide, believe, come to him eat of him and his word and this must continue to happen to be in that life. Jesus said if we eat his flesh and drink his blood he will live by him. He also speaks of ABIDING here as he does later in John 15. Jesus said

"He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. "(John 6:56 KJV)

The word "dwelleth" is the same word as abide, continue, endure as in John 15 In Greek.

"Abide in me, and I in you...6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."(John 15:4,6 KJV)

Notice that in order to dwell or abide in him we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. This is how we have eternal life continuing in us as this section of scripture shows in John 6. I am not talking about eating physical food or drinking physical drink. This is all deeply spiritual and this relates to the life that is in us as we eat and drink. Jesus speaks of abiding and not abiding in John 15. And it has to do with salvation as clearly as the text reads. Remember only in salvation in Christ is there fruit bearing, fellowship, relationship life, peace, hope, and spiritual gifts etc.

if the type of the manna is seen we can also see that this is a daily thing. If we live by every word of God. This is as we let the word of God dwell in our hearts and walk in it daily.

In order for the life of Christ to be made manifest we must die daily as Paul said. So that life that is in us will show forth as we die, or if we die daily. if we do not crucifiy the flesh and be crucified with Christ we cannot be risen with him either

"10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body."(2 Corinthians 4;10 KJV)

Galatians 5:24
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

And this daily cross we pick up connects to John 10:28

In John 10:27 Jesus said his sheep "follow" him. But he tells his sheep to

Luke 9:23-26 KJV
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Notice that to follow Jesus which Jesus said he will give those who do so eternal life, they must DAILY pick up their cross. If not they will loose their life. So in John 10:27,28 this is connected to Jesus words in Luke 9:23 and if a man does not do this then he cannot be saved or have eternal life or be Jesus disciple.

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."(John 10:27,28 KJV)

So obviously these sheep must also abide in Christ and pick up their cross and follow Jesus. This dying daily shows their continual need of faith and belief to walk in such a way. They that are Christ have crucified the flesh. if they are enemies of the cross they have not crucified the flesh and they do not take up their cross daily and so are lost.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Philippians 3:18
"(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:"

so we need to daily pick up the cross daily to eat the heavenly bread of life in faith and believe unto the end. Not a one time action.

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:" (compare with 1 Cor 15:2, "saved, if we keep in memory..

2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV
(For we walk by faith, not by sight )This is our daily walk. Not just a one time event

 

[LoveofTruth]

Part 3

That's why it is a FALSE STATEMENT to say that those who believe for a while are only saved for a while.

I am just quoting Jesus and the clear words he said, here they are again as I have shown many times. But for some reason you cannot see this. Or you will not, not sure. You said you would never change your belief no matter what (or something like that). But I hope others that read this will see the seriousness of what i say and the clarity of scripture in these areas.

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.[to believe here is to be saved. if they believed they would have been saved] 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; [to those that received him he gave the power to be called the sons of God] and these have no root, which for a while believe,[and so are saved as Jesus just showed us in the previous verse. Plain to see to the unbiased reader so they are saved for a while, to believe is to be saved. I know you can't accept this and it shatters the OSAS doctrine and you will rush to John 10:28 as if that somehow contradicts the clear words of Jesus here, but it doesn't. It contradicts your doctrine.] and in time of temptation fall away."[fall away from the joy in their heart they received by hearing the word and believing and being saved for a while] (Luke 8:11-13 KJV)

Some will say "well, it doesn't matter what you show, I believe what I believe, don't bother me with the facts". Or they will say,"but if that was true then it would contradict John 10:28" as if Jesus contradicts himself. For Jesus said both things and there is no contradiction as I have shown many times.The contradiction is in your doctrine not in Jesus words.

 

[Doug Melven]

the word "even" means "also and with other parties, both, " in greek, showing distinction.

So, it means "also"
I could speak to you as a Christian, even as a believer.
I could speak to you as a Christian, also as a believer.
Either way I am still speaking to you. Not a different person or somebody next to to you.

to be carnal is to be sold under sin and at enmity against God

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:..."

there is no such thing as a carnal christian (at least that's how I see it so far). But babes in Christ is different. They may fall and stumble and need top repent often and be in danger more so than a mature believer. But they are still not the same as carnal.

You realize Paul said this of himself in Romans 7:14?
This whole chapter is about a saved person trying his best to please God by keeping the law.
But the law makes us focus on sin and ourselves.
Chapter 8 is the victory chapter where Paul learned the secret to victory.
Yes, if we continue doing our best to keep the law, we will die. Physically die before we should. Not spiritually die.

Paul said to the Corinthians

"6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:...12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"(1Cor 2:6,12-14 KJV)

Those who are perfect are those who are trusting Christ. Hebrews 10:10, 14
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

If you are trying to understand Scripture with your own mind, it will be foolishness to you

Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh. They do not walk in it and live fleshly. They have the mind of Christ not a carnal mind. That is as they abide in Christ and bring EVERY though to the captivity of Christ

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
It is not a guarantee that those who live in the Spirit will walk in the Spirit. But they should.

Note that some who believe will come into condemnation in the future (Matthew 24:48-51).

For that interpretation to be correct that means there is a contradiction in the Scripture.
Are you willing to say Jesus lied about the fact that someone would not come into condemnation just so you can hold onto your interpretation?

Note that there are many verses that teach that salvation can be lost (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

Not one verse you have shown says that. And not this one either.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
This person didn't receive the Truth, only the knowledge of it.
They could see how to be saved, but they chose to sin. They rejected Jesus Christ, and resisted the Holy Spirit.

Note that Jesus did give conditions in order to not perish (e.g. Luke 13:3).

Yes, that is the one condition. Repent and believe the Gospel. Mark 1:15
That is the only condition. Notice the order, repent, then believe.

Note that a believer jumping out of God's hand, and thereby "falling away", is scriptural (e.g. Hebrews 6:4-8).

If you look at the last verse in that passage you will see that this is talking about someone who was never saved.
6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and isnigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Jesus said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.
Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupttree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupttree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

John 10:28 means any person other than ourselves. For Christians are not kept as prisoners, but retain their free will, by which they wrongly can depart from God (1 Timothy 4:1).

Where does it say in that verse "other than ourselves"?

1 Timothy 4:16 means that if we continue in Jesus' doctrine, we will stay saved.

Now we can save others too?
We have the power to make somebody born-again? Wow!

Note that believing in Christ is not the only condition for being saved ultimately (e.g. Matthew 7:21).

How does this verse say what you are saying it does?
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
What is the will of the Father?
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Note that Christians have been given power to effect their ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11).

1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..
If you would have read the previous verses you would know that Peter was saying that someone who didn't do those things has forgotten that he was forgiven.
So then he tells them to make sure you know what you have in Christ.
We cannot affect our own salvation.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
We believe in Jesus, then the Holy Spirit does His work in us. Once we accept Him, it is out of our control.

Note that John 3:36 says that if we believe not, we shall not be saved ultimately.

The verse says if we don't believe, we will not only not be saved, but the wrath of God abides on us.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Note the wrath of God abides, it does not come back.
A person is under God's wrath until they believe. And never under His wrath after that. Romans 5:8-9

 

[BNR32FAN]

Justification is by faith, for the Just shall live by faith.

To repent from sin is to turn from evil, and the Bible classifies that as works.

I'm not advocating sinning, because once we are saved and continue in sin, God will punish you severely while on earth due to the fact that you are now a son of God saved by grace through faith; he will chastise you the more you grieve the holy Spirit. But you will never lose your salvation, because salvation is not* conditional based upon your own merits - it's based upon the love and mercy of God, to give us that which we don't deserve (grace), and to save us from that which we all deserve (mercy).

I mean, how many sins are you supposed to stop committing in order to be saved? It only takes one to condemn to hell, and we've all sinned at least once today. To sin is to transgress the law of God, but thankfully, we're no longer under the law (Ephesians 2:15), but under grace (Romans 6:14) through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which is only accessed by faith (Romans 5:2).

Justification is by faith, for the Just shall live by faith.

According to the Greek word used for faith it would read like this.

Justification is by believing, being faithful, and having fidelity, loyalty, and devotion.

So according to faith along I could be a murderer, liar, immoral, and worship idols and even satan himself and as long as I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior I will still be saved? I will be punished in this world but I’d still make into heaven. That’s a HUGE path to heaven. It’s GIGANTIC actually and I can’t think of any way it could possibly be any bigger unless absolutely nothing was required to get into heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, BELIEVING, as understood by those who wrote and read the bible DOES mean "doing something". If you are a disciple of Jesus you will DO SOMETHING.

This is STILL confused. The Greek word for "pisteou" doesn't include what you are doing, but what you are trusting IN. When you "believe in Jesus", are you trusting in what you are doing FOR HIM to get to heaven?

Well, I've got some bad news for you. The crowd in Matt 7:21-23 thought exactly that. In fact, they were betting what they were doing for Jesus to get into the kingdom. And we know how that "worked out" for them. Not well.

For instance, you will feed the hungry, visit the sick, follow the commandments, pray, receive communion in memory of our Lord, witness, etc.

Are you really saying this is what is required for salvation?

If you've read Mathew 5,3-10 and you don't understand my point, it means you haven't read it with your heart.

Please just answer my question above:
When you believe in Jesus, are you trusting in what you are doing FOR HIM to get to heaven?

Ephesians 2:10
God saves us. This is justification. He saved us to join Him in the good work He has gotten us ready for. After all, WE are God's hands and feet.

Absolutely no argument. But please note that the verse doesn't say saved people WILL do good works. It DOES say those created in Christ were FOR good works.

I don't think you see the difference.

The N.T. is chock full of warnings.

Yes, there are. And NONE of them are warnings for believers do DO SOMETHING in order to not perish.

Don't you realize that if that were true, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 CANNOT be true?

§They are warnings to us so that WE WILL NOT PERISH.

I challenge (dare) you to quote just one verse that warns believers of how to not perish.

otoh, John 10:28 is a promise that those given eternal life shall NEVER PERISH.

See how your view is in direct opposition to the words of Jesus? And you're comfortable with that???!!!

Smart persons will understand this, others will understand it the way they wish and risk not making heaven.

Those who have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation have been given eternal life (Jn 3:16, 5:24, 6;47, 10:28) and they SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

But again, your claims are in direct opposition to the Savior's. Not good.

John 5:28-29

The context for these 2 verses includes 4 verses before that:
v.24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Here, Jesus mentions 3 things for those who believe in Him:
1. they HAVE (possess) eternal life.
2. they WILL NOT BE JUDGED. This is the same thing as John 10:28.
3. they HAVE PASSED from death to life.

This is a guarantee of eternal security.

\Yes. We must continue to believe if we are to continue to be saved.

This is an abuse of the Greek present tense. No Greek grammar text says that the results of a present tense action are dependent upon the action being continual out into the future.

Please get your facts straight.

If we have faith................we are saved.
If we do not have faith.......we are not saved.

This is a statement that applies to those who HAVE believed and are saved, and those who HAVE NOT believed, and are unsaved.

Discernment, sister.

None of my claims are false.

Yes the are, and I've proved it.

You must BELIEVE, present tense in English, to be saved at the time of your death.

See above about abusing the Greek present tense.

Your claim is a FALLACY.

If you do not believe at the time of your death, you will not be saved.

Please back this up with Scripture. The Greek present tense NOT ever mean this.

Believe means now, at this present time.

This is from an intermediate Greek grammar text by Daniel Wallace: Greek Grammar: Beyond the Basics.

"Under "narrow-band presents:
"The action is portaryed as being in progress, or as occurring. In the indicative mood, it is portrayed as occurring in the present time (right now), that is, at the time of speaking." p.516

On p.517, under "instantaneous present (aka aoristic or punctiiar present):
The present tense may be used to indicate that an action is completed at the moment of speaking. This occurs only in the indicative. It is relatively common."

Then a clarification is given:
"When 'say", "promise", opr "tell" introduces an utterance, the time frame of the introductory verb is concluded once the utterance is over."

There is a "progressive present" on p.518:
"The present tense may be used to describe a scene in progress, especially in narrative literature. It represents a somewhat borader time frame the the instantaneous present, though it is still narrow when compared to a customary or gnomic present. The difference between this and the iterative (and customary) present is that the latter involves a repeated action, while the progressive present normally involves continuous action."

However, this "continuous action" is action occurring right now, or in the present time, relative to the time of the speaker.

John 3:16
Hebrews 10:39
We are not to give up but to trust and have faith until the end to survive.

There is no support for your well meaning claim.

[UOTE]As for Greek lexicons and the such.
You're right, I don't consult them.[/QUOTE]
That's quite obvious

Why?
Because it's not all as easy as it may seem.

That's why Paul told Timothy to "study to show yourself approved of God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, but rightly dividing the word of truth.

Studying is NOT easy. But it's necessary to know the truth.

But, thanks for at least admitting your proclivity.

I have it on good authority that the aorist tense is not so simple to understand so unless you have a PhD after your name, I'd prefer to stick to the English.

It is not easy, but whoever told you that was just pulling your leg.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I've already responded to this, but repetition can't hurt, and may, in fact, help.

The verse is clear; instead of any warning about grieving the Spirit, Paul reminds believers who grieve the Spirit that they ARE SEALED with the Spirit, and the purpose of being sealed: for the day of redemption.

Sure doesn't sound like going to hell to me.


Bologna.

To what verse are you referring?

What does 1 Timothy 4:1 mean to you?
What does it mean to fall away from the faith?

What about 1 Timothy 4:8-10?
On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; 8for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and alsofor the life to come. 9It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
NASB

According to you, what exactly are we saved for?

As to grieving the Holy Spirit...please answer...do you understand this to mean one time or continuous grieving?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Part 1

Lol. sorry I had to laugh at that weak response. "he's just wrong" is not an argument at all.

lol is right! I've already given the argument and reasons why your views are wrong.

That is why I showed in Luke 8 that a person can for "a while believe" and then fall away. For a while shows that believing is not a one time event in the past. Jesus did not say those who "believed" in me (past tense) but those who believe.

I recommend a Greek grammar textbook and begin to learn what the various tenses mean and indicate.

This is where believe for a while shows clearly that belief is not a one time event.

OK, how do you handle Paul's answer to the jailer when he said, "believe (aorist) on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"?

The aorist means completed action. So much for your claims above.