Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[GodsGrace101]

When I said Scripture please, it was directly below a quote you made.
You made this statement with no Scriptural backing whatsoever. So I asked for you to provide a Scripture.
When I said, Did He actually say that, it was directly below a post where you were quoting John 3:20 and you said things were in that verse that Jesus did not say.

Why don't you post what you believe Jesus did NOT say in
John 3:20???
Jesus said EVERYTHING in John 3:20
He said that those who do evil HATE THE LIGHT.
JESUS IS THE LIGHT.
If we return to a life of evil, we hate the light.
Since Jesus is the light, we, in effect, hate HIM.

Do you deny that those who do evil do not hate God?
Do they love God??

 

[GodsGrace101]

Knowing He is the Holy Spirit and knowing how holy He is.
I would have to say that every single sin grieves Him.
As sin hurts us, the ones who committed the sin, yes He is grieved.
Holiness is a more prominent characteristic of God than even love.
In Isaiah 6 the angels don't cry love, love, love.
No, they cry holy, holy, holy.

I for one am exceedingly thankful that He promised that He would not impute my sins to, or hold them against me or remember them anymore.

Thanks DM, but I know what grieving the Holy Spirit means.
I was wondering what @FreeGrace2 means by it since it seems he believes we could grieve the Holy Spirit and still be saved.
However, he never answered my question.
Nothing new.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus said those who come to Him He will in no way cast out.
But you say there is a condition they have to meet.
But Jesus didn't put any conditions on it.

I am curious as to what you think the difference is between the Old and New Covenants.
Because we are not under the Old Covenant, we are under the New Covenant. Yet you quote verses from the Old Covenant thinking they pertain to the new.

What about the people who called Jesus Lord Lord and were rejected? Why were that rejected?

““Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23

“A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart. “So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:45-46

Now how can you still say that everyone who calls on Jesus will never be turned turned away? Jesus will never turn His back on us completely as long as we are still living and have the opportunity to turn to Him and repent. But once we die our fait is sealed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

What point are you trying to make here.

The issue is about salvation from a moment of belief, and the aorist tense means completed action. That clearly speaks of a past tense action.

The Greek and tenses do not fight against what I am saying I simply do not want to bog down many with complex grammatical arguments

These aren't "grammatical arguments" as your dodge of the FACTS claims.

But I do see why there is such a reluctance to discuss the FACTS of Greek grammar and what they mean. They do not help your argument at all. In fact, they refute it.

But this was also a quote from that page I referenced

“Throughout this passage an important truth is presented that again might be missed by many English translations. When Jesus describes the one who comes to him and who believes in him [3:16, 5:24, 6:35, 37, 40, 47, etc.], he uses the present tense to describe this coming, believing , or, in other passages, hearing or seeing. The present tense refers to a continuous, on-going action. The Greek contrasts this kind of action against the aorist tense, which is a point action, a single action in time that is not on-going…… The wonderful promises that are provided by Christ are not for those who do not truly and continuously believe. The faith that saves is living faith, a faith that always looks to Christ as Lord and Savior.”[1]

Did you not read anything that I post. That writer admitted he hadn't "finished" his research. Well, I did. And there is NO SUCH THING as a "continuous present tense" and I cited an authorative textbook on the subject that makes NO MENTION of such a tense.

iow, the writer simply made it all up in order to push an unbiblical agenda and doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As much as I dislike some of the things that James White says here he is interesting

I'm not at all fond of Calvinist writers either.

“One of the leading advocates of Calvinist predestination is Dr. James White. He is the author of Drawn by the Father: A Summary of John 6:35-45 (1999). He explains that the present tense for "come" in John 6:37 as well as "believe," "see" and "hear" in other verses in John's Gospel (such as John 3:16) signifies in Greek continuing action. He says:

Throughout this passage an important truth is presented that again might be missed by many English translations. When Jesus describes the one who comes to him and who believes in him (3:16, 5:24, 6:35, 37, 40, 47, etc.), he uses the present tense to describe this coming, believing, or, in other passages, hearing or seeing. The present tense refers to a continuous, on-going action. The Greek contrasts this kind of action against the aorist tense, which is a point action, a single action in time that is not on-going.... The wonderful promises that are provided by Christ are not for those who do not truly and continuously believe. The faith that saves is a living faith, a faith that always looks to Christ as Lord and Savior. (White, id., at 10-11)(emphasis added).

Well, he's just wrong. The aorist tense is used as well for coming, believing, eating, etc.

btw, the issue is not about whether the present tense action is done in a moment, or over a period of time, which would make it continuous action.

The ONLY issue is about the RESULTS of a present tense action. Does the action HAVE TO continue in order for the results to continue? That's the ONLY issue.

And the answer is NO. There is nothing in Wallace's intermediate Greek grammar text about the action having to continue in order for the results of such action to continue.

That's why it is a FALSE STATEMENT to say that those who believe for a while are only saved for a while. Salvation depends on an aorist tense completed action. That's why Paul used the aorist tense in Acts 16:31 when he answered the jailer's question of "what MUST I DO to be saved?". He said, "believe (aorist) in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

 

[FreeGrace2]

I could post all day about the present tense and ongoing aspect of believing

Yet, this is what I said:
"I said this:
"All the present tense means is action that is occurring right now, or in the present. It has nothing to do with on-going or continuous action in order for results of such action to continue as well."

And I stand by it, since Wallace's grammar text on the Greek supports it.

But then we would get bogged down with men’s interpretations of Greek etc and as in this discussion there are men on both sides

\
This is merely a huge dodge of the FACTS, which are NOT on your side.

Stick with scripture I showed that belief can be for a while then they can fall away when I speak of believe I also connect it with keeping the faith and daily living by faith

In order to "stick with Scripture", one MUST understand Greek language. But you're just ignoring the FACTS, and it's obvious why; the Greek grammar refutes your claims.

Anyway there are so many scriptures I could post about the need to continue abide lay hold overcome etc it would take all day to post and comment on them

Here's what you do not have: any verses that say that one must continue in the faith in order to not perish.

BUT, there are verses that actually and plainly say that those who have eternal life will NOT perish.

Which is totally opposite of your claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
" Where does the Bible say he "had to be converted again"?"

Do you claim to be a teacher of the word and you don't know these things? I marvel

I marvel at your resistance of the FACTS of the original language that the Bible was written in. You'd just rather listen to what men say the Bible says.

Jesus told Peter that he was going to deny him and by doing this Peter fell away for a time and needed to repent as he did and come back to where he once was ( in a saved state with Jesus). Peter was once saved or converted from a dark sinful life and then he sinned and denied Jesus and had to be converted "again".

Jesus said

Luke 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

"converted " means to come back again where you once were. To turn back again etc.

This is the Greek word: epistrepsas. And this is what it means: to turn, to return.

This wasn't about Peter losing salvation and needing to be saved again, as you presume.

If you note what Jesus said, it was about Peter's faith NOT failing, which is what He prayed for. But your assumption is that Peter's faith DID fail, which would mean Jesus' prayer was NOT answered. Does that make any sense? No.

And the word poorly translated "converted" certainly doesn't mean anything close to getting saved again. As you continue to presume.

Peter had once confessed that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God
Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

and by doing so he evidenced that he was saved and had the Spirit of God in him and born again. John shows us this when he said

"15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."(1 John 4:15 KJV) Peter said Jesus was the Son of God showing that God dwelt in him. Jesus also blessed Peter when he spoke his confession.

Why would anyone think that Peter had denied that Jesus was the Son of God. What Peter did was do deny his association with Jesus, out of fear of persecution.

and we read

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.(1 John 5:1 KJV)
"

Your presumptions continue.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No I use scripture and occasionally I go to the Greek meaning of words if the contention is argued

Do you really?

I've done that with you, and your response was "I don't want to get bogged down".

I can comment briefly about it and by the way the tenses prove what I am saying and do not prove FreeGrace2

I've given you FACTS about the Greek tenses, and you waved them off by your comment about not wanting to get bogged down. But facts are facts.

The best is when we see clear scripture that says a person can believe for a while then fall away it shows clearly that the belief connected to salvation must continue till the end and not just for a while.

If you had been paying attention, you would have LEARNED that the present tense has NOTHING to do with having to continue in order for the RESULTS of that action to continue.

But that's exactly what you're claiming. With NO EVIDENCE from Greek grammar textbooks. Your presumption is refuted by the FACTS.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said in post #531:

None of these verses, nor any other, say that Judas was "saved", as you claim here.

Note that nothing says or requires that Judas was never saved.

Actually, there are verses that clearly indicate that he never believed, therefore, was NEVER saved.

In John 6, after some "hard teaching", many disciples began to leave. And we have this verse:
v.64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

Notice that John puts "not believing" in the same breath as "would betray Him".

Then, when Jesus asks His 12 disciples if they want to leave as well, Peter answers for the group:
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

But Jesus had to correct Peter's comment about the "we", as if ALL of the 12 agreed with Peter.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

If that's not a correction, then I don't know what is. Here, Jesus notes that He chose a devil. That clearly means Judas NEVER believed, and was NEVER saved.

Note that election does not refer to betrayal, but salvation.

If you want to go "there", check out the "semper reformed" folder and check out the "ask a Calvinist" or "debate a Calvinist" for my thread on "election". I have shown that election is ALL ABOUT service, and NEVER about salvation.

But I'm not going to derail this thread about the subject.

So if you want to debate or discuss election, find my thread and post, and I will respond.

Note that John 6:70 does not say or require that Judas was a devil at the time that he was chosen and empowered as an apostle to cast out devils and cure diseases (Luke 9:1).

One can imagine anything they want to. But it's still clear what Jesus was telling Peter. He was correcting Peter's blanket statement about all 12 believing in Him as Messiah.

John 6 was rather early in His ministry, and Jesus made the statement about Judas.

We know that Jesus, as God, is omniscient and therefore knows all things. So He chose Judas knowing he was a devil.

Note that some who believe will come into condemnation in the future (Matthew 24:48-51).

No verse in this passage or any other says what you claim here. NONE.

But go ahead and quote any verse that does make that claim.

Note that there are many verses that teach that salvation can be lost (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

If your claim were true, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true, for He said in plain language that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. All in one breath.

So there's no room for any conditions for recipients of eternal life (saved people) to meet in order to not perish.

Note that Jesus did give conditions in order to not perish (e.g. Luke 13:3).

Then He contradicted Himself in John 10:28.

That is a preposterous claim.

Note that a believer jumping out of God's hand, and thereby "falling away", is scriptural (e.g. Hebrews 6:4-8).

I didn't read anything about any believer "jumping out of God's hand" in this passage, or any other passage. Oh, I see, you presume that "falling away" MEANS that. Well, John 10:28 again refutes your presumptions.

Jesus said "no one can pluck/snatch His sheep from God's hand". Do you know what "no one" means? It means "no person". It could even refer to angelic creatures.

The point is this: if you consider yourself to be a person, then John 10:28 even applies to yourself. iow, even YOU cannot remove yourself from God's hand.

So said Jesus.

John 10:28 means any person other than ourselves.

What you think (and hope) it means is nothing more than a presumption.

If you are a person, the "no one" applies even to you. Period.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Make no mistake my brothers and sisters the following verses can only apply to believers.

What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?

James 2:14

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”

James 2:19-20

So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

James 2:17

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

John 15:1-6

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:10

For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power.

1 Corinthians 4:20

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

Ephesians 5:3-6

But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-46

Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a fishing net that was thrown into the water and caught fish of every kind. When the net was full, they dragged it up onto the shore, sat down, and sorted the good fish into crates, but threw the bad ones away. That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:47-50

Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!

Matthew 13:37-43

“God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more grace and peace. All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see. So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you must endure many trials for a little while. These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world. You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. The reward for trusting him will be the salvation of your souls.

So prepare your minds for action and exercise self-control. Put all your hope in the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world. So you must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.” And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time here as “temporary residents.” For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And it was not paid with mere gold or silver, which lose their value. It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake. Through Christ you have come to trust in God. And you have placed your faith and hope in God because he raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory. You were cleansed from your sins when you obeyed the truth, so now you must show sincere love to each other as brothers and sisters. Love each other deeply with all your heart. For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ 1:13-24

The doctrine of faith alone is based on cherry picking scriptures and omitting these scriptures pertaining to a faith that is bearing fruit (good works) and repentance. Unfortunately people who believe in faith alone choose to only pay attention to the scriptures that say we are saved by believing. Believing is the first step to walking in the Spirit. We must continue in our walk until death or Jesus’ second coming in order to receive salvation. When we walk in the Spirit we are made right with God and our sins are forgiven but we have not received salvation yet as stated in 1 Peter 1:5 and 1 Peter 1:13-14. The words faith alone only appear in the Bible one time.

“So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:24

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Oh, quite a claim. Can you back it up with ANY verses? What makes your claim true?"

OK. Here's what's happening with our conversations.
You keep telling me I'm wrong and YOU don't back it up with any scripture...
However, you keep asking ME for scripture.

Are you kidding me? I continue to repeat verses that refute the non biblical claim of loss of salvation. Do you not bother reading what I post?

I explain to you what YOU post but you do not do the same for me.

Actually, just the opposite.

You just overlook the verses I give you.

No, I've explained them. To you and everyone else who offers the verses that don't support your claims.

Your opinions and speeches don't impress me.
Scripture does.

Then why aren't you impressed with what Jesus said in John 10:28?

He said recipients of eternal life (saved people) shall never perish.

All without ANY conditions for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

But the OSNAS crowd gives lists of conditions in order for saved people to meet in order to not perish.

Don't you see the conflict?

Unless you care to explain the following, our conversation could end right here.
Ephesians 4:30 Provide further proof, besides Ephesians 1:13-14 about how we are sealed. One verse does not a doctrine make. And, BTW, I DID give you a reply to being sealed.

First, let's look at this verse:
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Do you agree that grieving the Spirit is a very serious issue? I do. Not something I'd advise anyone to do.

Yet, as serious as that is, what did Paul add? "with whom you were sealed for the day redemption". Do you understand what that DAY is about? It's when our physical bodies are changed at the rapture. That's ultimate salvation, when we enter eternity.

So, even when we grieve the Spirit, we ARE STILL SEALED with the Spirit.

If grieving (or anything else that highly offends you that Christians might do) the Spirit WOULD lead to loss of salvation, WHY oh WHY would Paul have reminded sealed believers that they are still sealed for the day of redemption?

Instead, if salvation could be lost, Paul would have WARNED them right then and there about such a result.

He would have written something like this:
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or you will be unsealed.

Or, And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, or you will lose salvation.

There's no such concept in the N.T. We can be unsealed at any time.

How come there are NO VERSES that say this? Your presumption is unbiblical.

2 Peter 2:20-22
Please explain how AFTER escaping the defilement of the world by our Savior Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN entangled in them and their condition becomes as a pig that has returned to its vomit.

Well, once again we need to see the verses:
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

The key in this passage is to properly understand what "worse off at the end than at the beginning". The OSNAS crowd wrongly understands this as "worse off in eternity than when they first believed".

But it is a reference to one's life ON EARTH. Peter is WARNING believers that if they return to a lifestyle of sin (how they lived before salvation), their physical lives will be MUCH worse than when they were unbelievers.

iow, Peter is warning of God's divine discipline, which is PAINFUL, per Heb 12:11.

Paul spoke of God's discipline in 1 Cor 11:30, and note the progression: weakness, sickness and physical death.

Note what Paul said about the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5:5 - turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Sound pleasant to you?

Please explain John 5:28-29

The context for these verses is found in v.24, which I will quote:
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This verse says the same thing as John 10:28. That those who believe
1. possess eternal life and;
2. WILL NOT BE JUDGED, and
3. HAVE CROSSED OVER from death to life.

These are permanent. All based on believing.

Please explain
Luke 8:31
Some believed FOR A WHILE and in time of temptation FELL AWAY.

I believe you meant v.13, not 31. You're forgiven.

The words are quite clear. Those who believe for a while have "fallen away" from believing. But it seems the OSNAS crowd presumes it must mean to fall away from salvation.

What was there response to temptation? They fell away. Which refers back to the first part of the verse where Jesus said the "believe for a while". What followed explains the reason they only believed for a while; when tempation came, they quit believing.

And please don't accuse me again of ignoring your verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

P.S.
Could you please post some scripture regarding having fellowship being the same as salvation? I can't think of any.
thanks.

I can't because there aren't any. And they aren't the same thing.

Salvation relates to one's RELATIONSHIP with God.
Fellowship relates to FELLOWSHIP with God.

The difference is that fellowship is the STATE of the relationship. Unfortunately today, many people use the word 'relationship' when they really mean the state of a relationship, being fellowship.

Let me ask you this:

Can the parent-child relationship (which is permanent) lose fellowship between them?

Can the marital relationship (which in God's eyes is permanent as Jesus taught) lose fellowship between spouses?

The obvious answers to these questions should clarify any confusion about the difference between the 2 words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Among other things, I said this:
"If you think believing is doing something, which is really a work, then you are confused."

1. You're making assumptions about me again. Guess you can't help it

If you fit the description, I wasn't assuming anything at all.

Did you ever read Mathew 5:3,5,8,9??

Yes. Do you have a point?

Ephesians 2:8-9 Please check out Ephesians 2:10. This happens AFTER we're saved.

Uh, not, it doesn't just "happen". Let's actually read it again. Just for fun.
" For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Did you notice the words "to do"? This is what believers were created TO DO. It does NOT say WILL DO, as it seems you presume.

God does require us to do works, or good deeds, or whatever He wishes for us to do while in this life. If we love Him, we follow His commandments. John 14:15

Absolutely true, but not in order to not perish. Which is the claim of OSNAS.

Yes, John 3:16 and John 5:24 and 10:28 are ALL in the present tense. BELIEVE, NOT BELIEVED. We must believe TODAY.

This clearly sounds like a presumption that we must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

Except those who can read Grammar textbooks about the Greek language know that the present tense for 'believe' does NOT mean that the action of believing MUST CONTINUE in order for the results of believing, which is salvation, to continue.

That is a false claim.

This claim is clearly refuted by Paul's answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said, "believe (aorist tense) and you will be saved".

What is the aorist tense? First, it's NOT a present tense. It refers to completed action, which means something that occurred in the past. Also, generally, it is a point in time action, with no concept of continuing action.

Here's John 1:12 - I don't know what version you post from.
NASB
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Again, PRESENT TENSE. Those WHO BELIEVE can become children of God. Stop believing, stop being a child of God.

See above for proper understanding of the Greek present tense.

You didn't explain the word BELIEVE. You just told me I'm wrong.
Here...Believe can be a noun or a verb.

Uh, no. The noun is 'belief', the verb is 'believe'.

The Greek understands it to be a verb, as did Jesus. To believe in HIM meant to follow Him, if we follow Him, we are to do the works He did.

Apparently you haven't consulted any lexicon recently, huh? The Greek word for 'believe' has NOTHING about following. It's all about trusting.

John 14:12

12“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." NASB

Believe means:

trust the person
learn from the person
obey the person
agree with the person
do what the person teaches
use them as an example
follow them in all ways

Excuse me, but "pisteuou' does NOT include "obey" as you presume. That Greek word is 'pietho', which can mean obey, but also believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks DM, but I know what grieving the Holy Spirit means.
I was wondering what @FreeGrace2 means by it since it seems he believes we could grieve the Holy Spirit and still be saved.

I've already responded to this, but repetition can't hurt, and may, in fact, help.

The verse is clear; instead of any warning about grieving the Spirit, Paul reminds believers who grieve the Spirit that they ARE SEALED with the Spirit, and the purpose of being sealed: for the day of redemption.

Sure doesn't sound like going to hell to me.

However, he never answered my question.
Nothing new.

Bologna.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What about the people who called Jesus Lord Lord and were rejected? Why were that rejected?

Real easy. They never believed. Which is shown clearly by the basis on which they were expecting to enter the kingdom; on their OWN WORKS, of course.

Nothing about trusting in HIS WORK ALONE for getting in.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Make no mistake my brothers and sisters the following verses can only apply to believers.

What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?

James 2:14

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”

James 2:19-20

So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

James 2:17

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

John 15:1-6

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:10

For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power.

1 Corinthians 4:20

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

Ephesians 5:3-6

But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-46

Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a fishing net that was thrown into the water and caught fish of every kind. When the net was full, they dragged it up onto the shore, sat down, and sorted the good fish into crates, but threw the bad ones away. That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:47-50

Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!

Matthew 13:37-43

“God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. May God give you more and more grace and peace. All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see. So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you must endure many trials for a little while. These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world. You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. The reward for trusting him will be the salvation of your souls.

So prepare your minds for action and exercise self-control. Put all your hope in the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world. So you must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.” And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time here as “temporary residents.” For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And it was not paid with mere gold or silver, which lose their value. It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake. Through Christ you have come to trust in God. And you have placed your faith and hope in God because he raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory. You were cleansed from your sins when you obeyed the truth, so now you must show sincere love to each other as brothers and sisters. Love each other deeply with all your heart. For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ 1:13-24

The doctrine of faith alone is based on cherry picking scriptures and omitting these scriptures pertaining to a faith that is bearing fruit (good works) and repentance. Unfortunately people who believe in faith alone choose to only pay attention to the scriptures that say we are saved by believing. Believing is the first step to walking in the Spirit. We must continue in our walk until death or Jesus’ second coming in order to receive salvation. When we walk in the Spirit we are made right with God and our sins are forgiven but we have not received salvation yet as stated in 1 Peter 1:5 and 1 Peter 1:13-14. The words faith alone only appear in the Bible one time.

“So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:24

Seems you're really desperate to refute what Jesus said about those who receive eternal life.

He said, "I give them eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." John 10:28

So, if ANY of your passages teaches that salvation can be lost for any reason, then what Jesus said cannot be true.

How can anyone not see this? It is so clear.

 

[Call me Nic]

How can anyone not see this? It is so clear.

Brother, you could argue and prove your case 100x over, but there are still going to be those that are going to wiggle out of seeing the truth of scripture. It's because of their presuppositions, not because they necessarily want to believe what the Bible actually says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Brother, you could argue and prove your case 100x over, but there are still going to be those that are going to wiggle out of seeing the truth of scripture. It's because of their presuppositions, not because they necessarily want to believe what the Bible actually says.

I am totally aware of this.

My hope is that if anyone who is seriously looking for biblical answers reads these posts, that my efforts will at least be seen by them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Seems you're really desperate to refute what Jesus said about those who receive eternal life.

He said, "I give them eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." John 10:28

So, if ANY of your passages teaches that salvation can be lost for any reason, then what Jesus said cannot be true.

How can anyone not see this? It is so clear.

Jesus says we are saved by by believing. This is true but He never says we are saved by only believing. He also gives examples of believers who believe who won’t be saved and gives stipulation for receiving salvation like the ones I posted. The verses I quoted are undeniable. They are clearly examples of “believers” who will not be saved. This is exactly why we must compile all of the Bible’s teachings to formulate a doctrine. It cannot be based solely on single passages from the Bible. It must coincide with all of the scriptures to be a sound doctrine. The doctrine of faith alone does not coincide with the scriptures I presented. These scriptures aren’t coming from my own thoughts these are the word of God and must be taken into consideration. Like I said before you can choose to believe in faith alone and risk misleading others and jeopardizing your salvation but what if your wrong? If your wrong and you don’t receive salvation because your faith didn’t produce fruit and repentance there’s no turning back. Now what if I’m wrong? I’m teaching that not only believing is required but also walking in the Spirit until we die. If I’m wrong and only believing is required I will still be saved because I do put my trust in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. So why take the risk of being wrong and teaching people that they don’t have to be born again? They don’t have to repent and do good works? Jesus specifically says that people who don’t do these things will not be saved. These teachings can only apply to believers because no matter how much a person repents and how much fruit they produce if they don’t believe they will not be forgiven and not be saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am totally aware of this.

My hope is that if anyone who is seriously looking for biblical answers reads these posts, that my efforts will at least be seen by them.

Amen I hope they read all these posts.