Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[BNR32FAN]

I'll save you some colored ink here and give you the SINGLE CONDITION for having eternal life: believing in Him for it.

John 3;15,16, 5:24, 6:47. They all say so directly.


How come Jesus never FORCED any condition on recipients of eternal life in John 10:28?


We see nothing of the kind.

Yeah and being able to be blotted out of the book of life means nothing. Just disregard that verse because it doesn’t pertain to salvation. Lol

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here's a new question

How does any person have eternal life and why does Jesus give them eternal life in John 10:28?

Because of what Jesus said previously in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47. Whoever believes HAS eternal life.

Do you say that Jesus forces some to be saved and others to be damned as some Calvinist say?

Absolutely NOT.

[QUOT3E]does a person have to repent and believe the gospel? or does God force them to have eternal life?[/QUOTE]
Everyone has to believe the gospel to receive eternal life. God forces no one to have His gift.

what is the reason that Jesus will give eternal life to anyone?

First, He died for all of them, which reconciles the world to God through Him. 2 Cor 5:19.

Second, anyone who believes in Him for eternal life receives eternal life.

Hey, you said "here's a new question". But I counted 6 of them.

if you say they must first repent and believe. Then you say exactly what I say and add the condition to have Jesus Christ formed in them ( which is eternal life) you cannot take John 10 out of the context of the entire book of John and from Jesus previous words.

Whoa. You've put false words in my mouth. To have "Christ formed" in someone is technical for spiritual maturity and spirituality. One must be filled with the Spirit and walk by the Spirit in order to produce the fruit of the Spirit. Gal 5

Then your whole talk enfolds in on itself as it has been doing to the unbiased reader.

Please explain this so-called enfolding you speak of. iow, prove it.

If you read closely you will see that Jesus said his sheep hear his voice vs 27 and he knows them vs 27.

If YOU read closely you will see that Jesus was giving a general description of what His sheep do. There are no conditions in either v.27 or 28. None. As any unbiased reader can see as well.

So in John 10:27 Jesus says

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"( John 10:27 KJV)

Jesus voice is in the heart, through the seed that is sown to all men. This statement above was spoken just before John 10:28 where Jesus said that he gives unto them eternal life and they shall never perish. They will never perish as they walk with him and abide in him.

You just need to keep reading both v.27 and v.28 until it is clear to you that there are NO CONDITIONS in either verse.

That the SINGLE CONDITION for never perishing is to be given eternal life.

You just keep wanting to ADD conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish, but Jesus DID NOT SAY THAT OR EVEN CLOSE TO THAT.

So, you STILL do not believe what Jesus wrote. I will take that is failing to understand rather than outright rejection. But be careful, for if you resist the clear message long enough, it may result in outright rejection of what He said so clearly.

Kinda like Pharaoh, who kept resisting Moses so long by hardening his own heart, that after 5 plagues, the Bible says that God hardened his heart during the final 5.

The way God hardened his heart was by keeping him alive way after he should have been removed from earth, which allowed him to just getting get harder and harder.

So by "God hardening his heart" it was God allowing him to live longer, which is why his heart continued to harden.

We see clearly from post 1 that Judas was a sheep of Jesus and so had eternal life for a while as he believed for a while, then later he fell by transgression .

No, "we" don't see that at all. Those unbiased readers who are familiar with John 6 and esp v.64 with Peter's statement in v.68,69 and with Jesus' correction of Peter's statement in v.70,71, know that even WHEN Jesus chose Judas, he was a devil.

ie, he never believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You didn't answer any of what i wrote here you just dodged

you said they were acting like children of God and acting like children of the devil. where does it say they were "acting"

you need to be held accountable for these words you said here and not simply run away and dodge as you clearly seem to be doing here

I will repeat the words again


To all.

consider this discussion I had recently with FreeGrace2

FreeGrace2 said: ↑

I've repeatedly explained everything you've brought up. I don't need to do it again.

It seems you've either not bothered reading any of it, or you just stubbornly reject it.

But you never actually deal with any of my points. You just keep repeating your own.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"When Jesus said, "I give THEM eternal life", it is clear to the student of the Word (2 Tim 2:15) that He only means believers. That is a given. So there is no need to mention the condition for receiving eternal life.
The point of John 10:28 isn't about the condition for receiving eternal life."

No, you must apply the condition it is not a given to some.

I don't know what you mean here. What does "apply the condition" mean?

This is a given as to my argument but it is not a given to your argument and there are others that even say we cannot believe or that is a work.

Nothing is a "given". Everything needs to be explained. Like what I do.

So the condition of eternal life must always be for front in hearing Jesus words.

The condition for receiving eternal life is to believe in Christ. But Jesus was speaking about His sheep, which are believers.

This lines up with Jesus words in 1 John 2;24,25 showing the condition for abiding in eternal life which is to continue in the Son and in the father.

Except what Jesus said in John 10 does NOT REQUIRE any other verse to explain it.

Are you aware how LONG after 33 AD that John wrote 1 John? Somewhere between 86-95 AD. So your assumption is absurd.

What Jesus said in John 10:28 can be understood immediately when He said it. No one needed to wait until after 86 AD to know what He meant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Yet, you cannot provide ANY verse that actually says that eternal life can be lost."

there has been much evidence

lol

None at all. If that was true, then John 10:28 is not true. Because Jesus was clear about the EFFECT of having eternal life; never perish.

You are very wrong here and if they did eat of the tree of life then they had eternal life but lost it. But the tree of life is Jesus Christ. As scripture teaches and the wisdom and life and fruit from that tree is from the tree of life.

It just seems impossible to discuss almost anything with you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’m unbiased I don’t believe in eternal security but I think the evidence here is inconclusive. Sorry my friend I just don’t see anything here that is solid evidence. Not saying your wrong I’m just saying I don’t see it.

Jesus was clear about the CAUSE of having eternal life an the EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28.

He is the CAUSE of having eternal life by His words, "I give them (believers) eternal life"

Never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life by His words, "and they (believers) shall never perish".

What is missing from His statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life is that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

Those who think that salvation can be lost MUST ADD a condition into what Jesus said.

Something like this:
"I give them (My sheep) eternal life, AND AS LONG AS... or IF... they shall never perish."

That's what the OSNAS crowd MUST do to the verse in order to get it in line with their bias.

But there are NO CONDITIONS in the verse for never perishing.

iow, once eternal life is received, that recipient shall never perish. Period.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I've repeatedly explained everything you've brought up. I don't need to do it again.

It seems you've either not bothered reading any of it, or you just stubbornly reject it.

But you never actually deal with any of my points. You just keep repeating your own.

Another dodge from your wrong words you added to scripture that they were just “acting”

And you still persist in avoiding your own error

The reason this is so important is because in 1 John we see that the OSAS idea is refuted over and over.
MRead 1 John 3:6 and tell me what you think it means.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yeah and being able to be blotted out of the book of life means nothing.

Well, I never said that. But you can believe whatever you want.

First, the Bible contains NO examples of anyone being "blotted out of the book of life".

But since it seems you disagree, what verse says so?

The phrase is a literary technique called a "litotes". I'll let you do some research to learn what it means and how it is used.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And you still persist in avoiding your own error

The reason this is so important is because in 1 John we see that the OSAS idea is refuted over and over.

When will you be providing some kind of explanation of your claim here? I haven't seen any explanation of your claim.

In fact, the writer of this epistle is the same one who quoted all the statement of Jesus in his gospel. One of which was 10:28 where Jesus stated the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life. And without ANY CONDITIONS for recipients to meet in order to not perish.

In fact, merely on the basis of receiving eternal life, the recipient is said to never perish.

MRead 1 John 3:6 and tell me what you think it means.

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

The words "to live in him" refers functioning from the new regenerated nature from being born again. So, from that nature, we CAN'T sin.

I also believe that it is the new nature where the Holy Spirit resides. Why would He reside in any part of our flesh, which is corrupted.

The last sentence of the verse means that the believer who "continues to sin" is an idiot and knows nothing.

Here's what the verse doesn't say. It doesn't say "the one who continues to sin loses salvation or forfeits eternal life, or becomes UN-born again. Or anything like that.

So quit assuming it does mean that.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus was clear about the CAUSE of having eternal life an the EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28.

He is the CAUSE of having eternal life by His words, "I give them (believers) eternal life"

Never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life by His words, "and they (believers) shall never perish".

What is missing from His statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life is that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

Those who think that salvation can be lost MUST ADD a condition into what Jesus said.

Something like this:
"I give them (My sheep) eternal life, AND AS LONG AS... or IF... they shall never perish."

That's what the OSNAS crowd MUST do to the verse in order to get it in line with their bias.

But there are NO CONDITIONS in the verse for never perishing.

iow, once eternal life is received, that recipient shall never perish. Period.

Yes as long as they continue to believe they have eternal life you just try hard to avoid the continual need for daily faith and act like it’s a one time event.

If we continue in the faith grounded and settled and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

If we continue in the grace of God

If we overcome by the power of the Spirit

If we abide in Christ

If we faint not

If we don’t deny him

If we keep in memory the gospel

If we do not depart from the faith and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils

If we through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body

If we sow to the Spirit we shall reap life everlasting

If we lay hold of eternal life

If we walk in the light and not in darkness

If we believe until the end

If we endure TIL the end

If we look diligently left any man fail of the grace of God

If we are not brought back into bondage and fall from grace

If we look unto Jesus

If we continue in his words

If we watch and pray that we enter not into temptation

If we guard our hearts

Etc etc etc

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes as long as they continue to believe they have eternal life you just try hard to avoid the continual need for daily faith and act like it’s a one time event.

If we continue in the faith grounded and settled and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

If we continue in the grace of God

If we overcome by the power of the Spirit

If we abide in Christ

If we faint not

If we don’t deny him

If we keep in memory the gospel

If we do not depart from the faith and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils

If we through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body

If we die to the Spirit we shall reap life everlasting

If we lay hold of eternal life

If we walk in the light and not in darkness

If we believe until the end

If we endure TIL the end

If we look diligently left any man fail of the grace of God

If we are not brought back into bondage and fall from grace

If we look into Jesus

If we continue in his words

If we watch and pray that we enter not into temptation

If we guard our warts

Etc etc etc

Wow. You phony list just keeps getting longer and longer.

Why didn't Jesus include ANY of your list into John 10:28?

I know you sure want your list IN that verse.

But Jesus just didn't take your suggestion.

I'm not rejecting ANY of these "ifs..." statements. But I DO reject the notion that any of them are conditions for keeping eternal life, or not perishing.

In order to "never perish", there is only one condition. And that is to receive the free gift of eternal life. John 10:28

The Bible is very clear about encouraging believers to continue in the faith and continue in fellowship with the Lord, which is intimacy with the Lord.

But your biased opinion cannot be found in Scripture.

However, since you don't believe me, please pick just one of your "if" conditions above that actually links the condition for the believer, who already HAS eternal life, needs to meet in order to never perish.

This is a challenge.

 

[Geralt]

judas wasnt saved, he wasnt given (by the Father) to christ.

and like the rest of those who 'wasnt given', like Judas, they are there to serve their purpose, God;s purpose.

 

[LoveofTruth]

In order to "never perish", there is only one condition. And that is to receive the free gift of eternal life. John 10:28.

Where is the words you said and added to that verse “to receive the free gift”

I don’t see those words in John 10:28

Now I think you understand that that verse does have conditions attached to it Jesus just doesn’t say all of them in every statement

However, since you don't believe me, please pick just one of your "if" conditions above that actually links the condition for the believer, who already HAS eternal life, needs to meet in order to never perish.

This is a challenge.

Read 1 John 2:24,25 which show another “if” there and connected to abiding and continuing in the Son and in the Father. And then and only then do they have the promise of eternal life which is Jesus Christ in them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus was clear about the CAUSE of having eternal life an the EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28.

He is the CAUSE of having eternal life by His words, "I give them (believers) eternal life"

Never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life by His words, "and they (believers) shall never perish".

What is missing from His statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life is that Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

Those who think that salvation can be lost MUST ADD a condition into what Jesus said.

Something like this:
"I give them (My sheep) eternal life, AND AS LONG AS... or IF... they shall never perish."

That's what the OSNAS crowd MUST do to the verse in order to get it in line with their bias.

But there are NO CONDITIONS in the verse for never perishing.

iow, once eternal life is received, that recipient shall never perish. Period.

We’ve been over this a hundred times. His sheep hear and follow Him as stated in verse 27. If someone doesn’t hear or follow they are not his sheep. Lol

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, I never said that. But you can believe whatever you want.

First, the Bible contains NO examples of anyone being "blotted out of the book of life".

But since it seems you disagree, what verse says so?

The phrase is a literary technique called a "litotes". I'll let you do some research to learn what it means and how it is used.

Is Psalms 69:28 an inspired writing? Yes it was canonized in the Hebrew Bible and by the Catholic Church. All of the Catholic Churches also believe that people can be blotted out of the book of life. Sorry my friend John Calvin was wrong in so many ways.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where is the words you said and added to that verse “to receive the free gift”

I don’t see those words in John 10:28

Don't be silly. When Jesus said "I give them eternal life", do the "them" receive something or not? Get real. Now, you're just playing word games.

By saying "I give them..." means "them" are now recipients. And we know that eternal life is a free gift, per Rom 6:23.

You're just trying to be difficult.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We’ve been over this a hundred times. His sheep hear and follow Him as stated in verse 27. If someone doesn’t hear or follow they are not his sheep. Lol

All of this is immaterial. The point of v.28 is that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

iow, once given the gift of eternal life, that person, or recipient, shall never perish.

So, why do you continue to resist what Jesus said?

 

[BNR32FAN]

All of this is immaterial. The point of v.28 is that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

iow, once given the gift of eternal life, that person, or recipient, shall never perish.

So, why do you continue to resist what Jesus said?

Verse 28 ONLY applies to His sheep it doesn’t apply to everyone ONLY to those who hear and follow.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Well, I never said that. But you can believe whatever you want.

First, the Bible contains NO examples of anyone being "blotted out of the book of life".

Is Psalms 69:28 an inspired writing? Yes it was canonized in the Hebrew Bible and by the Catholic Church. All of the Catholic Churches also believe that people can be blotted out of the book of life. Sorry my friend John Calvin was wrong in so many ways.

I'm no fan of John Calvin nor his theology. It's full of problems, just like the Arminians.

However, did you actually read any of Psa 69?

Here's one verse: 21 - They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

Sounds like David was inspired to write what Jesus would experience. What I don't find anywhere in Psa 69 is the idea that anyone David was writing about were former believers in the Messiah.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Verse 28 ONLY applies to His sheep it doesn’t apply to everyone ONLY to those who hear and follow.

No, it applies only to those who receive eternal life, which is all who believe in Him.

John 3:16, 36, 5:24, 6:47.