Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[Doug Melven]

Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).



Note that other Bible verses show that 1 John 4:17 is conditional (e.g. Hebrews 3:14).

The difference between you and I is I see the Scripture as absolute, you don't.
1 John 4:17 is a perfect example. It is not conditional in any way.
The verse says "As Christ is so are we in this world". Right now, we are just like Christ is right now.
Hebrews 3:14 says we are partakers of Christ. Not even close to matching up.
My experience says I am not like Christ at all.
I still sin. Christ does not.
I don't know everything. Christ is omniscient.

Another example is 1 John 3:6.
This verse says we do not commit sin, in fact we can't sin because the seed of God remains in us.
But, believers still sin. So our experience doesn't match the Scripture.
You think this verse is referring to repentance. As in once we are born-again we do our best to stop sinning.
But, the verse we can't sin. Not we won't or shouldn't sin because we are born-again. It says we can't sin.
There is a big difference between can't and won't.
Sometimes people will be asked to do something and they reply that they can't.
So then they are asked, "Can't or won't"?
Won't means you are capable but you decide not to for whatever reason. Maybe afraid of the consequences.
But, if you can't, that means you are incapable of doing such a thing.
Remember the verse says, "We can't sin".

I accept the Scripture as is. I don't try to change it to match my experience.
My perception of reality can lie to me.
I deny my experience if it doesn't line up with Scripture.
So, how is it that a person who is born of God can't sin.
We are more than just body and soul. We are spirit also.
My body was not reborn when I accepted Christ. I was about 20 pounds overweight when I did. Now 30 years later I am about 50 pounds overweight and balding.
My soul was not made new. I didn't know everything then, and I still don't know everything. 1 John 2:20, 27
My spirit which was dead, has been reborn, made alive. In my spirit which is one with God ( 1 Corinthians 6:17 )
knows everything and is completely righteous and just like Jesus Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The difference between you and I is I see the Scripture as absolute, you don't.
1 John 4:17 is a perfect example. It is not conditional in any way.
The verse says "As Christ is so are we in this world". Right now, we are just like Christ is right now.
Hebrews 3:14 says we are partakers of Christ. Not even close to matching up.
My experience says I am not like Christ at all.
I still sin. Christ does not.
I don't know everything. Christ is omniscient.

Another example is 1 John 3:6.
This verse says we do not commit sin, in fact we can't sin because the seed of God remains in us.
But, believers still sin. So our experience doesn't match the Scripture.
You think this verse is referring to repentance. As in once we are born-again we do our best to stop sinning.
But, the verse we can't sin. Not we won't or shouldn't sin because we are born-again. It says we can't sin.
There is a big difference between can't and won't.
Sometimes people will be asked to do something and they reply that they can't.
So then they are asked, "Can't or won't"?
Won't means you are capable but you decide not to for whatever reason. Maybe afraid of the consequences.
But, if you can't, that means you are incapable of doing such a thing.
Remember the verse says, "We can't sin".

I accept the Scripture as is. I don't try to change it to match my experience.
My perception of reality can lie to me.
I deny my experience if it doesn't line up with Scripture.
So, how is it that a person who is born of God can't sin.
We are more than just body and soul. We are spirit also.
My body was not reborn when I accepted Christ. I was about 20 pounds overweight when I did. Now 30 years later I am about 50 pounds overweight and balding.
My soul was not made new. I didn't know everything then, and I still don't know everything. 1 John 2:20, 27
My spirit which was dead, has been reborn, made alive. In my spirit which is one with God ( 1 Corinthians 6:17 )
knows everything and is completely righteous and just like Jesus Christ.

You still decline to address the scriptures I posted. Why is that?

 

[Bible2+]

Doug Melven said in post #461:

Remember the verse says, "We can't sin".

Note that 1 John 3:9 must be qualified by other Bible verses which show that we Christians can wrongly employ our free will not only to sin, but even to not repent when we commit a sin (e.g. 2 Corinthians 12:21). And if we do the latter, we will ultimately lose our salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

Therefore, 1 John 3:9 must mean that the initial salvation of Christians will be accompanied by them repenting from their sins, and not continuing in them, at least for a while.

Doug Melven said in post #461:

So, how is it that a person who is born of God can't sin.
We are more than just body and soul. We are spirit also.

Are you thinking of the idea of, for example, Romans 7:17?

If so, note that when the apostle Paul said: "it is no more I that do it" (Romans 7:17,20), by "I" he meant only his "inward" self (Romans 7:22), his spiritual mind (Romans 7:25,23, Ephesians 4:23). He was not denying that it was another, carnal part of himself doing it. For he admitted: "I am carnal" (Romans 7:14), and referred to the sinfulness of "my flesh" (Romans 7:18), and "my members" (Romans 7:23). And so he referred repeatedly to the sin which "I do" (Romans 7:15-16,19).

It is the same with everyone. For everyone sins only after being enticed by his "own" lust (James 1:14-15). So in Romans 7:17,20, the apostle Paul did not mean that Christians are not responsible when they commit a sin. They still have to repent after they commit a sin (2 Corinthians 12:21; 2 Corinthians 7:9, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:19, Revelation 3:3), or they will ultimately lose their salvation (1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Hebrews 10:26-29).

 

[LoveofTruth]

I am amazed at how anyone can think salvation is insecure. God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works. The gospels make this so clear as well as Romans where God contrast the difference between those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by doing works or good deeds or some form of obedience as apposed to faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

Furthermore there are so many examples that make it clear that salvation is secure. We are predestined not to be saved but to become like Jesus. Salvation is eternal, which if you lost it, then God lied. Then there is the fact that we are already buried and raised with Christ. We are already a new creation now, not later if we continue doing good. The fact that God speaks of circumcision of the heart. Circumcision can not be undone, so neither can salvation.

One a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child. Even now the concept is not possible. Even if you don't like your parents you can never change the fact that you will always be the child of your parents.

So, there for the secure salvationist their god is more than willing to take their child that they claim to love to no end and throw them into a horrible burning fire that will never end. I don't know any normal or healthy parent that would ever throw their child into a fire for punishment. So if that is god, then his creation is better the god himself, and that god needs to learn what basic love is.

If Jesus died on the cross and suffered so he can guilt us and make us feel bad, then you can keep it. I have enough without that level of guilt.

But praise God, the true God freely forgives, justifies the ungodly, saves murders, rapist, incest people, adulters, drunkards, those who lived their whole life living for self and more. These categories are people in the Bible. The true God, loves us freely and at a level we could never fully imagine this side of eternity.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted. The insecure condemning god makes me want to live in sin and be as far away from him as possible. The unconditional loving God, makes me want to run to Him and when I sin, to run to Him all the more.

Love is a far better motivation to live right than threats of beatings and the worst torment ever, that being hell. People that love to preach insecure salvation do so because they are full of so much extreme pride because they think themselves perfect or close to it. Those who know salvation is secure realize that their is nothing in them that could ever save them or keep their salvation so they run to love and the God who freely justifies them.

Be Blessed.

Check out my Judas was once saved and lost it post I show clearly that Judas was once saved and lost it a lot of text are from Matthew 10 and Acts 1

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

 

[GodsGrace101]

There are a number of passages, but the best single verse on eternal security is found in John 10:28, where Jesus taught about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Himself, when He said, "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing, when He said, "and they shall never perish."

So, those given eternal life shall never perish.

Paul described 3 gifts of God in Romans;
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

Then he wrote in 11:29 that "the gifts of God are irrevocable".

There are plenty of verses.

There's no such concept as eternal security in the bible.

You're answering to a question I had for the O.P.
The O.P. had made this comment:
Once a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child.

I asked the O.P. to show that in the early church there was no concept of someone becoming unborn. There was no reply because such support does not exist.

In the early church it was understood that one had to CONTINUE to do good deeds and believe in Jesus in order to be saved.

Here are some early church writings:

We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life. Barnabas (c. 70-130).

Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Irenaeus (c. 180).

It is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope, nor the endurance of one day; rather, “he that endures to the end will be saved.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195).

God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning the past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out. For only the Father is the one who is able to undo what is done. ...So even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For at the climax of the drama, he has given up his part. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195).

And JESUS said:

You will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. Matt. 10:22.

Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62.

As to John 10:28, Yes. As long as you ARE a sheep of the Lord and HEAR His voice (all present tense) He WILL give you eternal life and NO ONE can snatch you out of God's hand. You may, however, walk out on your own.

1 Timothy 4:15-16
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

You can pick and choose your verses, but the N.T. is clear on the fact that we must endure, continue in our belief, and persevere.

Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Check out my Judas was once saved and lost it post I show clearly that Judas was once saved and lost it a lot of text are from Matthew 10 and Acts 1

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

There is nothing in your OP that Judas believed. That has to be assumed. Nothing more.

In fact, when Jesus asked His 12 disciples if they were going to leave, Peter thought he was speaking for the whole group in his answer in John 6:68,69.

But Jesus' response was actually a correction to Peter. Jesus remined him that Jesus had chosen all 12, and one of them was a devil. So Jesus viewed him as a devil from the beginning, when He chose him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"There are a number of passages, but the best single verse on eternal security is found in John 10:28, where Jesus taught about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Himself, when He said, "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing, when He said, "and they shall never perish."

So, those given eternal life shall never perish.

Paul described 3 gifts of God in Romans;
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

Then he wrote in 11:29 that "the gifts of God are irrevocable".

There are plenty of verses."

To which you responded:

There's no such concept as eternal security in the bible.

Apparently you failed to bother to even read what I posted.

You're answering to a question I had for the O.P.
The O.P. had made this comment:
Once a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child.

I asked the O.P. to show that in the early church there was no concept of someone becoming unborn. There was no reply because such support does not exist.

And none of this is relevant to the issue of eternal security. I am informed by Scripture, not what the "early church" thought.

In the early church it was understood that one had to CONTINUE to do good deeds and believe in Jesus in order to be saved.

OK, it's now clear that you did NOT read anything I posted. I quoted John 10:28 and explained how it is a direct statement of the CAUSE of having eternal life and the EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE is Jesus Christ, the Giver of the gift.
The EFFECT is never perishing.

To deny eternal security is to deny Jesus' statement. Are you prepared to do that?

In John 10:28, Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish. He simply went from the CAUSE to the EFFECT of having eternal life.

Therefore, eternal security is based on being given eternal life.

Those who have eternal life shall never perish.

But go ahead and try to refute these facts.

Here are some early church writings:

We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life. Barnabas (c. 70-130).

Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Irenaeus (c. 180).

It is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope, nor the endurance of one day; rather, “he that endures to the end will be saved.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195).

God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning the past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out. For only the Father is the one who is able to undo what is done. ...So even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For at the climax of the drama, he has given up his part. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195).

None of this is inspired writing. The Bible IS.

And JESUS said:

You will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. Matt. 10:22.

Check the context. It's the 7 year Tribulation that one must endure to the end.

[QUOTE]Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62.[/QUOTE]
This doesn't say anything about losing salvation.

As to John 10:28, Yes. As long as you ARE a sheep of the Lord and HEAR His voice (all present tense) He WILL give you eternal life and NO ONE can snatch you out of God's hand. You may, however, walk out on your own.

Uh, no. Where would one find what you've ADDED to Scripture in that verse? No where.

Those who have to ADD to Scripture in order to push their own theology aren't fit for the kingdom. That's my opinion. But If you really think Luke 9:62 teaches loss of salvation, then all you're doing is pitting the words of Jesus against Himself. Not cool.

John 10:28 is a direct and clear statement of eternal security. Those given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. And NO CONDITIONS, according to Jesus.

1 Timothy 4:15-16
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

You can pick and choose your verses, but the N.T. is clear on the fact that we must endure, continue in our belief, and persevere.

I pick and choose those verses that directly state the principle of eternal security. You HAD to ADD to Scripture in John 10:28 to support your theology, which is not the Bible's theology.

Romans 11:22

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I'm guessing you are not familiar with the purpose of metaphors and figures of speech.

But that's ALL that the OSNAS crowd has to support their views.

But Rom 11:22 is an agricultural metaphor about removing branches that are no longer beneficial. What does the farmer expect from his branches? Fruit. If they don't produce, they are cut off. This is really about being fired from service, not loss of salvation.

Bottom line is that Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

You cannot get around that. But you may deny it, ignore it, ADD to it. But it totally refutes the notion that salvation can be lost.

 

[zoidar]

Then he wrote in 11:29 that "the gifts of God are irrevocable".

Rom 11

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God'schoice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Paul is talking about that the Jews as a people were chosen by God and that calling is irrevocable. Now the gentiles also have been chosen by Christ, since he died for all men, and that calling is also irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rom 11

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God'schoice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Paul is talking about that the Jews as a people were chosen by God and that calling is irrevocable.

Correct. Paul also noted the Roman believers were called as well. Rom 1:6,7

But, you missed the other thing that v.29 speaks about. God's gifts are also irrevocable.

And I listed what 3 gifts Paul specifically mentioned before he wrote 11:29 -
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

Why did you leave these out?

Now the gentiles also have been chosen by Christ, since he died for all men, and that calling is also irrevocable.

And, God's gifts are irrevocable, including eternal life.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Correct. Paul also noted the Roman believers were called as well. Rom 1:6,7

But, you missed the other thing that v.29 speaks about. God's gifts are also irrevocable.

And I listed what 3 gifts Paul specifically mentioned before he wrote 11:29 -
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

Why did you leave these out?


And, God's gifts are irrevocable, including eternal life.

Talents mean what in scripture?

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what I said:
"Paul also noted the Roman believers were called as well. Rom 1:6,7

But, you missed the other thing that v.29 speaks about. God's gifts are also irrevocable.

And I listed what 3 gifts Paul specifically mentioned before he wrote 11:29 -
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

Why did you leave these out?


And, God's gifts are irrevocable, including eternal life."

Talents mean what in scripture?

Before I start answering what appears to be totally irrelevant questions, how about addressing anything in my post that you disagree with?

You left out "the gifts of God" which are irrevocable. Was that intentional? Or what?

I'll answer your irrelevant question after you address my post.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

....
Before I start answering what appears to be totally irrelevant questions, how about addressing anything in my post that you disagree with?

You left out "the gifts of God" which are irrevocable. Was that intentional? Or what?

I'll answer your irrelevant question after you address my post.

Nm I'll withdraw the question.

 

[zoidar]

Correct. Paul also noted the Roman believers were called as well. Rom 1:6,7

But, you missed the other thing that v.29 speaks about. God's gifts are also irrevocable.

And I listed what 3 gifts Paul specifically mentioned before he wrote 11:29 -
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

Why did you leave these out?


And, God's gifts are irrevocable, including eternal life.

It wasn´t my purpose to leave that out. The gifts from God are irrevocable as well. He has given his life for us, it is given, and it´s irrevocable, He doesn´t take it back. But we can refuse to accept this gift, so even the gifts are given, we can turn away from them, as many people do.

A better translation of the word "ametamélētos" (irrevocable) could be "unregretted".

 

[GodsGrace101]

I said this:
"There are a number of passages, but the best single verse on eternal security is found in John 10:28, where Jesus taught about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Himself, when He said, "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing, when He said, "and they shall never perish."

So, those given eternal life shall never perish.

Paul described 3 gifts of God in Romans;
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

Then he wrote in 11:29 that "the gifts of God are irrevocable".

There are plenty of verses."

To which you responded:

Apparently you failed to bother to even read what I posted.


And none of this is relevant to the issue of eternal security. I am informed by Scripture, not what the "early church" thought.


OK, it's now clear that you did NOT read anything I posted. I quoted John 10:28 and explained how it is a direct statement of the CAUSE of having eternal life and the EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE is Jesus Christ, the Giver of the gift.
The EFFECT is never perishing.

To deny eternal security is to deny Jesus' statement. Are you prepared to do that?

In John 10:28, Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish. He simply went from the CAUSE to the EFFECT of having eternal life.

Therefore, eternal security is based on being given eternal life.

Those who have eternal life shall never perish.

But go ahead and try to refute these facts.


None of this is inspired writing. The Bible IS.

Check the context. It's the 7 year Tribulation that one must endure to the end.

Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62.
This doesn't say anything about losing salvation.


Uh, no. Where would one find what you've ADDED to Scripture in that verse? No where.

Those who have to ADD to Scripture in order to push their own theology aren't fit for the kingdom. That's my opinion. But If you really think Luke 9:62 teaches loss of salvation, then all you're doing is pitting the words of Jesus against Himself. Not cool.

John 10:28 is a direct and clear statement of eternal security. Those given eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. And NO CONDITIONS, according to Jesus.


I pick and choose those verses that directly state the principle of eternal security. You HAD to ADD to Scripture in John 10:28 to support your theology, which is not the Bible's theology.


I'm guessing you are not familiar with the purpose of metaphors and figures of speech.

But that's ALL that the OSNAS crowd has to support their views.

But Rom 11:22 is an agricultural metaphor about removing branches that are no longer beneficial. What does the farmer expect from his branches? Fruit. If they don't produce, they are cut off. This is really about being fired from service, not loss of salvation.

Bottom line is that Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

You cannot get around that. But you may deny it, ignore it, ADD to it. But it totally refutes the notion that salvation can be lost.

Your reply is very personal. I'm not here to be attacked by you. Just stick to scripture please.

I not only read your entire post, I also explained John 10:28,
perhaps you missed it. You could repeat cause and effect forever, it will not change what the bible teaches us. It teaches us whether or not we want to be saved or lost and that salvation can be lost.

I agree that as long as we remain in Christ, we will never perish.

Could YOU now explain John 15:1-6 to me? Like I did with John 10:28...
Jesus is telling us that HE is the vine and WE are the branches. IF we abide in Him, we bear much fruit. IF WE DO NOT ABIDE in Him, we are thrown away as a branch, we dry up because we have been removed from the SOURCE of our LIFE, we are gathered and cast into the fire and burned.

How does one get around that? Have YOU added to it??

You don't care for what the early church fathers stated because they are not inspired? Do you suppose John Calvin was inspired when he INVENTED Perseverance of the saints in the year 1,500? Or do you suppose the persons who were closest to Jesus after his ascension might know a bit more than John Calvin did?

Jesus gave MANY CONDITIONS if we do not want to perish.
John 15:14
John 14:15
John 15:1-6
Mathew 5:3-10
Mathew 5:48
Mathew 7:23
Romans 13:9-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-12
Galatians 5:17-21
1 Thessalonians 4:1-6

Pick a few and please explain the verse.

Luke 9:62 If, after becoming saved, we look back upon our past and just even WONDER if we made a mistake, WE ARE NOT FIT FOR THE KINGDOM. Jesus said this, not me.
We must count the cost beforehand...
Luke 14:28-30

Your doctrine is a rather very dangerous one.
If someone is reading along and believes they could not lose their salvation by not adhering to all the scripture I posted, do YOU accept the responsibility of their loss of salvation?
James 3:1

2 Timothy 4:7
It sounds like Paul believes it is very important to KEEP THE FAITH.

 

[Doug Melven]

Note that 1 John 3:9 must be qualified by other Bible verses which show that we Christians can wrongly employ our free will not only to sin, but even to not repent when we commit a sin (e.g. 2 Corinthians 12:21). And if we do the latter, we will ultimately lose our salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

You say you arre qualifying the verse, but actually you are altering the verse to suit your doctrine.
My question was how can this verse be true with us believers still sinning.
My answer was that it is our spirit which is born of God that does not sin. Our flesh still sins.
My flesh is not born of God.
My answer did no damage to the Scripture.
Your answer altered what God said.

We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life. Barnabas (c. 70-130).

This denies John 10:28.

Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Irenaeus (c. 180).

Show me a verse that says God will disinherit a son.
Even the prodigal son did not stop being a son.

It is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope, nor the endurance of one day; rather, “he that endures to the end will be saved.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195).

Denies John 3:16

God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning the past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out. For only the Father is the one who is able to undo what is done. ...So even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For at the climax of the drama, he has given up his part. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195).

When Jesus forgave me, all my sins were future.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It wasn´t my purpose to leave that out. The gifts from God are irrevocable as well. He has given his life for us, it is given, and it´s irrevocable, He doesn´t take it back. But we can refuse to accept this gift, so even the gifts are given, we can turn away from them, as many people do.

Yes, people can refuse to accept the gift of eternal life, which is by not believing the gospel message.

But your claim that we can "give them back, once given" is false. There are no verses that make such a claim.

A better translation of the word "ametamélētos" (irrevocable) could be "unregretted".

Doesn't change anything. The Bible does not teach that the gift of eternal life can be given back, thrown away, misplaced, etc.

And Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish means just that. Once given, the recipient will never perish.

This proves that no one can get rid of their gift.

Without the gift, one WILL perish. But with the gift no one will perish.

 

[GodsGrace101]

This denies John 10:28.

Show me a verse that says God will disinherit a son.
Even the prodigal son did not stop being a son.

Denies John 3:16

When Jesus forgave me, all my sins were future.

One verse, John 10:28.
I listed about 10 up above, could YOU list 10 to support your view? No. Because your view is not biblical.

John 10:28 is correct for as long as we abide in Jesus.
Jesus is the life force. When you leave the life force, you lose it.

The Prodigal Son:
How did it profit the prodigal son to leave his home?
Had he not gone back he would have attended to the pigs forever. And, I hope you know that he would have received no further inheritance. He received what he was to receive before he left and he would have received NO MORE. IOW, that would be like losing salvation since he was living in misery and his inheritance was forfeited from any FUTURE gain.

Also, if you read Revelation 3:5 it clearly states, Jesus' words,
that those who OVERCOME shall be dressed in white garments and Jesus will not erase his name from the book of LIFE.
IF you are not clothed in white and if you do not overcome, you will be blotted out from the book of life.

As to your sins: God forgives us all our sins as long as we are sorry for them and ask Him for forgiveness.

As to John 3:16, please notice that it is written in the present tense. Those who BELIEVE will not perish. If you STOP BELIEVING you WILL perish.

Jesus goes on to say in John 3:20 that everyone who does evil hates the light. Jesus is the light. If someone ABANDONS Jesus and goes back to a life of sin and evil, he HATES Jesus.
Jesus said this, not me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your reply is very personal. I'm not here to be attacked by you.

Since my post was addressed to you, in response to your post responding to my post, how can it not be personal. But please don't err in thinking that being personal means attacking. An attack uses ad hominems, which I don't use.

Just stick to scripture please.

What I posted included much Scripture, so that's what I'm doing; sticking with Scripture.

I not only read your entire post, I also explained John 10:28,
perhaps you missed it. You could repeat cause and effect forever, it will not change what the bible teaches us.

Your first post to me was #465, and your second post to me is the one I'm now responding to, which is #474. There is nothing in the first post about John 10:28 in your response. So, no you didn't explain anything about John 10:28.

But the FACT that Jesus DID state the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life cannot be refuted, nor changed by any other verse.

So maybe now would be a good time to explain why John 10:28 cannot be about eternal security, given what Jesus said. This is called exegesis.

It teaches us whether or not we want to be saved or lost and that salvation can be lost.

The Bible doesn't teach this or many people would have shoved the verses down my throat by now. But no one has.

Please provide just one verse that says plainly, without metaphors or figures of speech, that salvation can be lost.

I agree that as long as we remain in Christ, we will never perish.

OK, please provide just one verse that says plainly, without metaphors or figures of speech, that one can be UN-sealed from the Holy Spirit and be "removed from Christ".

My challenge comes from Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

with Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I've bolded the key to being "in Christ". We read that we are "included IN Christ" when "having believed". That is the aorist tense, meaning a point in time completed action. So, from that moment we are sealed IN HIM, which is the promised Holy Spirit. Who is a deposit which GUARANTEES our inheritance for the day of redemption as God's own possession.

So, from these 3 verses, all written in the same letter, by the same author, we know that once sealed, always sealed. OSAS for short.

Now, in order to refute what I've explained here, you'll need to find a verse that directly speaks to a NT believer losing the Holy Spirit. But you'll never find one.

Could YOU now explain John 15:1-6 to me? Like I did with John 10:28...

Uh, like you DIDN'T with John 10:28. I even made it easy to find your first post to me.

However, Jesus spoke to His 11 remaining disciples by using an agricultural metaphor. First, He already assured them that they were "clean", meaning saved. So the state of salvation is NOT in view here, per v.3.

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

v.4-5 speak of bearing fruit, not staying or getting saved. It requires to remain or abide, as some translations render it.

This speaks of fellowship. Consider a married couple. Though the marital relationship is intact, is there always fellowship between them? Of course not. They can be either IN fellowship or OUT of fellowship. The same can occur with believers in their spiritual lives.

Or take the parent-child relationship. Though permanent, it is obvious to everyone that there isn't always fellowship between parent and child. In fact, there may be not much or even none at all. But the relationship cannot be broken.

So both of these examples prove that a permanent relationship can have fellowship or not. The parable of the prodigal is just such a one. The son remained the son throughout, but his asking for his inheritance while dad was still alive was akin to telling his father that he wished he were dead. So it's obvious that the son left out of fellowship with his father. But after confessing his sin and repenting (returning to his father) fellowship was restored.

But it seems many want to spiritualize this parable into the son losing (or never having) a relationship with the father, and getting saved at the end of the parable. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

So, the point of John 15:1-6 is that in order to bear fruit, one MUST be IN fellowship with the Lord.

There are 4 specific commands that related to the Holy Spirit:
1. be filled with the Spirit Eph 5:18
2. walk by the Spirit Gal 5:16
3. stop grieving the Spirit Eph 4:30
4. stop quenching the Spirit 1 Thess 5:19

The first 2 reflect being IN fellowship with the Lord. The last 2 reflect being OUT of fellowship with the Lord.

Jesus is telling us that HE is the vine and WE are the branches. IF we abide in Him, we bear much fruit. IF WE DO NOT ABIDE in Him, we are thrown away as a branch, we dry up because we have been removed from the SOURCE of our LIFE, we are gathered and cast into the fire and burned.

The word "fire" is used throughout Scripture to speak of God's discipline during the believer's life on earth and has NO connection with hell or the lake of fire.

It also speaks of judgment. Consider 1 Cor 3:14,15
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This shows that believers may suffer loss (of reward) but YET WILL BE SAVED.

How does one get around that? Have YOU added to it??

No, I've explained it.

You don't care for what the early church fathers stated because they are not inspired?

I care much more what the Bible says.

Do you suppose John Calvin was inspired when he INVENTED Perseverance of the saints in the year 1,500?

No, I don't, since Paul and Jesus taught otherwise. Luke 8:13 and 1 Tim 4:1 refute what John Calvin said in 1500 AD.

Or do you suppose the persons who were closest to Jesus after his ascension might know a bit more than John Calvin did?

It's what the Bible says that counts the most.

Jesus gave MANY CONDITIONS if we do not want to perish.
John 15:14
John 14:15
John 15:1-6
Mathew 5:3-10
Mathew 5:48
Mathew 7:23
Romans 13:9-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-12
Galatians 5:17-21
1 Thessalonians 4:1-6

I'm going to let you quote ANY of these verses that actually lists ANY condition for a believer to not perish.

All this just reveals that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28. He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients (believers) of eternal life to not perish.

Pick a few and please explain the verse.

Nope. You pick ANY one that actually says there are conditions for believers to meet in order to never perish.

Luke 9:62 If, after becoming saved, we look back upon our past and just even WONDER if we made a mistake, WE ARE NOT FIT FOR THE KINGDOM. Jesus said this, not me.

I know He did. But guess what. What makes you think that anyone IS "fit for the kingdom"? Are we all not sinners? Of course we are. 1 John 1:8,10 says so.

We must count the cost beforehand...
Luke 14:28-30

What cost did Jesus give us to count in order to never perish?

Your doctrine is a rather very dangerous one.

Since Jesus taught it, along with Paul, Peter (1:23) and other inspired writers of Scripture, I don't think so.

otoh, those who teach doctrines that contradict Scripture are doing that.

If someone is reading along and believes they could not lose their salvation by not adhering to all the scripture I posted, do YOU accept the responsibility of their loss of salvation?

First, dear woman, they WON'T lose salvation.
Second, every believer is responsible for their own actions, if you didn't know that.

But I do know what's on your mind here. The teaching of GRACE leads to this so-called "license to sin" nonsense.

Its nonsense since we ALL have our original sinful flesh or nature. So we don't need any license to sin.

But what your thoughts also reveal is your woeful lack of understanding about God's discipline towards His wayward children.

Consider Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Couple of things to note here.
1. God's discipline is PAINFUL. Got that? So, no one "gets away with" anything, even though that seems to be the battle cry of the OSNAS crowd when they come to the teaching of GRACE.
2. The goal of God's painful discipline is to produce a harvest of righteousness, which is a holy lifestyle.
3. However, such production is realized ONLY by those who have been "trained by it".

Question: is everyone who receives discipline trained by it? Of course not.

James 3:1

2 Timothy 4:7
It sounds like Paul believes it is very important to KEEP THE FAITH.

It IS. But not to keep one's salvation.

Consider Col 1:
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

So, instead of occurring after v.22, let's state the red words FIRST:

"if you continue in your faith". Then what? The answer is in v.22

"God reconciled you by Christ's death to present you holy in His sight, wihtout blemish and free from accusation".

iow, the ONLY WAY for God to present any of His children (believers) holy and blameless is IF you continue in your faith.

What isn't found in this context is any mention of continuing in your faith to stay saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bible2+ said: ↑
Note that 1 John 3:9 must be qualified by other Bible verses which show that we Christians can wrongly employ our free will not only to sin, but even to not repent when we commit a sin (e.g. 2 Corinthians 12:21). And if we do the latter, we will ultimately lose our salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

My question was how can this verse be true with us believers still sinning.
My answer was that it is our spirit which is born of God that does not sin. Our flesh still sins.
My flesh is not born of God.
My answer did no damage to the Scripture.
Your answer altered what God said.

Amen!!

This denies John 10:28.

Show me a verse that says God will disinherit a son.
Even the prodigal son did not stop being a son.

Denies John 3:16

When Jesus forgave me, all my sins were future.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 10:28 is correct for as long as we abide in Jesus.

Then please show me exactly where in that verse Jesus mentioned anything about abiding. I've already explained John 15, so by now, I expect that you've read it. So please don't bring it up again. It's irrelevant to the issue of salvation.

Jesus is the life force. When you leave the life force, you lose it.

But no one can. I also shared Eph 1:1314, with 4:30 to prove that you can't.