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Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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BNR32FAN

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So your saying that one who has a new heart (ie:saved) can lose the new heart and therefore the heartscry (love) is extinquished? Seems to me that many waters can never quench love. Whenever I have backslide it was never out of His love that a mere turning to Him wouldn't cure.

No I agree that if we turn to God He will accept us back but there are some stipulations. Obviously there were those who cried Lord Lord to Jesus who were rejected by Him. As Jesus said

“But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:23

Jesus is talking about our obedience to Him. If we repent and turn to God we can be saved but if we die without repentance He will reject us when we call on Him. Because we are dead we no longer have the opportunity to repent from sin. The thief on the cross was lucky because he had confessed right before he was going to die and didn’t sin anymore before he died. So because of his confession to Jesus he was saved.
 
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No I agree that if we turn to God He will accept us back but there are some stipulations. Obviously there were those who cried Lord Lord to Jesus who were rejected by Him. As Jesus said

“But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:23

Jesus is talking about our obedience to Him. If we repent and turn to God we can be saved but if we die without repentance He will reject us when we call on Him. Because we are dead we no longer have the opportunity to repent from sin. The thief on the cross was lucky because he had confessed right before he was going to die and didn’t sin anymore before he died. So because of his confession to Jesus he was saved.
Titus 3:5
Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit
1 Peter 1:23
Having been regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God.​
Like the heart that can get cold but not turned to stone again the incorruptible seed can’t become corruptible again either. Can you provide evidence that either of those can occur?
Before even receiving the Holy Spirit from on high disciples received the breath of new life that gave understanding to His words. The downpayment of the Holy Spirit is irreversible. Again supply scripture if that is not so.
Luke 24:45-49
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”​
 
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Titus 3:5
Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit
1 Peter 1:23
Having been regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God.​
Like the heart that can get cold but not turned to stone again the incorruptible seed can’t become corruptible again either. Can you provide evidence that either of those can occur?
Before even receiving the Holy Spirit from on high disciples received the breath of new life that gave understanding to His words. The downpayment of the Holy Spirit is irreversible. Again supply scripture if that is not so.
Luke 24:45-49
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”​

Jesus had many revelations and He was talking to His apostles when He said that so it is very likely that He already had foreseen their destiny. There are many scriptures that give examples of loss of salvation. People are not exempt from these examples just because they are a believer because these examples are only for believers. First I will start with the book of life. Someone can only be written in the book of life if they belong to God.

“Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:27

“And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand. Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8-10

“Now I appeal to Euodia and Syntyche. Please, because you belong to the Lord, settle your disagreement. And I ask you, my true partner, to help these two women, for they worked hard with me in telling others the Good News. They worked along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are written in the Book of Life.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4:2-3

“I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-15

I think it is pretty evident that people can only be written in the book of life if they belong to God. So what about this next verse?

“Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭69:28

The psalms are deemed as inspired writings of the Holy Spirit and here we see an example of someone being blotted out of the book of life. Now this is a request of course but if it is in fact from the Holy Spirit then that would mean that it is possible for someone to be blotted out of the book of life. Which would be a clear indication of someone having salvation and losing it. What are your thoughts on this? I do have more evidence but I don’t have time to post it right now with explanations but I will post the scriptures that deal with loss of salvation in another post because they are very long.
 
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Titus 3:5
Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit
1 Peter 1:23
Having been regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God.​
Like the heart that can get cold but not turned to stone again the incorruptible seed can’t become corruptible again either. Can you provide evidence that either of those can occur?
Before even receiving the Holy Spirit from on high disciples received the breath of new life that gave understanding to His words. The downpayment of the Holy Spirit is irreversible. Again supply scripture if that is not so.
Luke 24:45-49
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”​

Please explain how these verses do not pertain to believers. I’m inclined to believe that all these verses must be pertaining only to believers because if they don’t believe it doesn’t matter how much fruit they produce or how much they’ve refrained from sin. They cannot be saved without believing in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. A tree is identified by its fruit. Figs are never gathered from thornbushes, and grapes are not picked from bramble bushes. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart. “So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say? I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. But anyone who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house right on the ground, without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.


Luke 6:43-49


What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?


James 2:14


“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”

James 2:19-20


So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.


James 2:17


Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.


James 2:21-24


Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road. Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.


James 2:25-26


Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.


Matthew 7:15-20


Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.


Matthew 7:24-27


I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.


John 15:1-6


When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10



For the Kingdom of God is not just a lot of talk; it is living by God’s power.


1 Corinthians 4:20


I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit.


Matthew 21:43


But Jesus told him, “Anyone who puts a hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of God.


Luke 9:62


Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.


Ephesians 5:3-6


But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.


Matthew 25:31-46


Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a fishing net that was thrown into the water and caught fish of every kind. When the net was full, they dragged it up onto the shore, sat down, and sorted the good fish into crates, but threw the bad ones away. That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 13:47-50


Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!


Matthew 13:37-43


Here is another story Jesus told: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field. But that night as the workers slept, his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat, then slipped away. When the crop began to grow and produce grain, the weeds also grew. “The farmer’s workers went to him and said, ‘Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds! Where did they come from?’ “An enemy has done this!’ the farmer exclaimed. “‘Should we pull out the weeds?’ they asked. “No,’ he replied, ‘you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn.


Matthew 13:24-30


A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 24:45-51


Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.


Matthew 18:3-10
 
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GodsGrace101 said in post #432:

It was HIS [Augustine's] reasoning that made it absolutely necessary for babies to be baptized as soon as possible because he believed that if they died they would go to hell because of this sin they were born with and sin shall not enter heaven. Revelation 21:27

Note that unless God wants to make an exception for an elect individual (Exodus 33:19b, Romans 9:15), infant baptism is not valid, because baptism is useless for salvation, and is not even allowed, unless the one being baptized is already a believer with all of his heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 8:36-38, Mark 16:16). Also, Christians need to be not just sprinkled with water, as is often done with infant baptism, but water-immersion (burial) baptized (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12), in order to be ultimately saved (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

GodsGrace101 said in post #432:

For instance, even if YOU commit a sin you're not aware of, God could not hold you responsible for it.

Note that the ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists in their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can then repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).
 
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BNR32FAN said in post #433:

Why do people reject what is clearly written?

That brought to mind 2 Timothy 4:3-4, where the original Greek word (G1939) translated as "lusts" can include simple "desires" (cf. Luke 22:15, Philippians 1:23), which would include doctrinal desires: That is, what we want to believe, rather then what is actually the truth. Compare Ephesians 2:3, which refers to when we wrongly fulfill what our own minds want to think.

For example, some people reject the idea of the eternal suffering of non-Christians, because these people want to believe that God's character forbids it. But the truth is that the eternal suffering which God will mete out to non-Christians (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46) will not be against His character, but will express a vital part of it.

For the eternal suffering of non-Christians will not be some evil, capricious act of cruelty on God's part, but an eternal expression of that aspect of His perfect holiness/goodness which is called His righteous judgment and wrath against evil (Romans 2:5, Romans 9:22, Hebrews 12:28b-29, Revelation 14:10-11).

There is no Bible verse which requires the annihilation of non-Christians, just as there is no Bible verse which requires the ultimate salvation of everyone from hell. So there is no reason for anyone to believe in either of these things, beyond their own, personal desire to believe in them.
 
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Doug Melven said in post #438:

Show from Scripture Ultimate salvation and initial salvation.

Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Doug Melven said in post #438:

And you didn't answer 1 John 4:17
As Jesus is, so are we in this world.

Note that other Bible verses show that 1 John 4:17 is conditional (e.g. Hebrews 3:14).
 
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~Cassia~ said in post #442:

The downpayment of the Holy Spirit is irreversible.

That's right, but it does not take away free will. That is why Christians can wrongly quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19).

It is sometimes asked: "But would not Christians losing their salvation require that the Holy Spirit be cast away to suffer in hell?"

The answer is No, the Holy Spirit will never be cast away, for He is God. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) is one God with God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8, John 20:31). For the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:19-20 and Mark 13:11) and the Spirit of the Son (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9). Also, the Holy Spirit is already in hell, just as He is in heaven and everywhere else at the same time. For He is omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-8). And He can be in hell without suffering from it, just as God could cause even some righteous men who were cast into a fiery furnace on the earth not to suffer from it (Daniel 3:23-27).
 
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That's right, but it does not take away free will. That is why Christians can wrongly quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19).

It is sometimes asked: "But would not Christians losing their salvation require that the Holy Spirit be cast away to suffer in hell?"

The answer is No, the Holy Spirit will never be cast away, for He is God. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) is one God with God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8, John 20:31). For the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:19-20 and Mark 13:11) and the Spirit of the Son (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9). Also, the Holy Spirit is already in hell, just as He is in heaven and everywhere else at the same time. For He is omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-8). And He can be in hell without suffering from it, just as God could cause even some righteous men who were cast into a fiery furnace on the earth not to suffer from it (Daniel 3:23-27).
Ya that would be grieving the Spirit
 
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So you can't supply the verses. Thanks anyway.
So you can't supply the verses. Thanks anyway.
Thanks anyway?
@BNR32FAN provided you with MANY verses; you just don't accept them.

How about YOU provide some verses that say that it's impossible to lose salvation no matter what.

It would be great if you could get Jesus saying this, but any verse will do.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So you can't supply the verses. Thanks anyway.

I did supply the verses. I think the problem is that you can’t deny that they are in fact for believers. Remember your beliefs must coincide with all of the scriptures to be correct. Not just some of them.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Thanks anyway?
@BNR32FAN provided you with MANY verses; you just don't accept them.

How about YOU provide some verses that say that it's impossible to lose salvation no matter what.

It would be great if you could get Jesus saying this, but any verse will do.

Your asking for the impossible. Lol
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I did supply the verses. I think the problem is that you can’t deny that they are in fact for believers. Remember your beliefs must coincide with all of the scriptures to be correct. Not just some of them.
You didn't even attempt to address the scriptures quoted. Debate sections are for debates according to scripture not to your whitewashing techniques. Not gonna win too many souls with that. In fact you'll be judged more harshly than others when He quickens the Holy Spirit may that selfsame spirit be in you. God bless your day.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You didn't even attempt to address the scriptures quoted. Debate sections are for debates according to scripture not to your whitewashing techniques. Not gonna win too many souls with that. In fact you'll be judged more harshly than others when He quickens the Holy Spirit may that selfsame spirit be in you. God bless your day.

Actually I did address the scriptures I quoted. Do I need to post the question how does this verse not pertain to believers on every verse I quoted? What about the evidence I gave in detail about the book of life? You declined to comment on that also. I have produced a ton of evidence and you are refusing to refute my evidence with a logical or biblical explanation. Is it because the evidence I gave is irrefutable?
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Actually I did address the scriptures I quoted. Do I need to post the question how does this verse not pertain to believers on every verse I quoted? What about the evidence I gave in detail about the book of life? You declined to comment on that also. I have produced a ton of evidence and you are refusing to refute my evidence with a logical or biblical explanation. Is it because the evidence I gave is irrefutable?
This scripture
Titus 3:5
Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit
1 Peter 1:23
Having been regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God.​
Like the heart that can get cold but not turned to stone again the incorruptible seed can’t become corruptible again either. Can you provide evidence that either of those can occur?
Before even receiving the Holy Spirit from on high disciples received the breath of new life that gave understanding to His words. The downpayment of the Holy Spirit is irreversible. Again supply scripture if that is not so.
Luke 24:45-49
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”​
 
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BNR32FAN

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This scripture

Yes we are not saved by works I absolutely agree we are saved by having a faith that produces good works and repentance. A faith that leads us to walk in the Spirit not by simply believing. As I pointed out in my previous post James 2 is very clear on this point.

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-20

May I please ask what the definition of faith is?
 
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zoidar

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May I please ask what the definition of faith is?

Will answer this first with your own words:

Faith leads us to walk in the Spirit not by simply believing. :oldthumbsup:

Quoting anonymous:

Faith really means that we have an "obedience/love/believe in relationship" with Jesus.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Not everyone can agree with you.
You've stated a great deal but with no scripture.

You claim your concept above, which I've highlighted, did not even exist,,,I presume when the biblical books were gathered?

In any case, could you show some support for this?
There are a number of passages, but the best single verse on eternal security is found in John 10:28, where Jesus taught about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Himself, when He said, "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing, when He said, "and they shall never perish."

So, those given eternal life shall never perish.

Paul described 3 gifts of God in Romans;
spiritual gifts in 1:11
justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17
eternal life in 6:23

Then he wrote in 11:29 that "the gifts of God are irrevocable".

There are plenty of verses.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Will answer this first with your own words:

Faith leads us to walk in the Spirit not by simply believing. :oldthumbsup:

Quoting anonymous:

Faith really means that we have an "obedience/love/believe in relationship" with Jesus.

Amen the Greek word pistis translated to faith means to believe and to have faithfulness and fidelity.
 
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