Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

And we all know this isn't relevant at all. There is no parallel between humanity and angels. To think so is to error.

Wrong again We see the connection in scripture they are even used as a warning

2 Peter 2 - 1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. ..4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”

And

Jude 1 - 4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

And many are connected to the fallen angel the devil Satan

John 8 - 44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. “

 

[LoveofTruth]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why do you continue to disagree with Jesus in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

Jesus DIDN'T include any conditions in John 10:28 for recipients of eternal life. You keep doing so. Explain yourself.


Not blind. There is nothing to see. Including NO CONDITIONS in John 10:28, which you keep wanting to add.

There's no reason to respond to the rest of your very long and colorful post.

Our argument STOPS at John 10:28 in which you refuse to acknowledge that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to never perish.

I have explained John 10 in detail in a post and I take all of f what Jesus said not just a part of it

Jesus said we must abide and continue in his word or we will not be his disciples and can be cut off and cast into the fire.

John 8 - 31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”

Notic the “if” to believers

Before John 10 and John 15 also clarifies.

As I
said if we continue in the faith we have the hope of eternal life as we abide in Christ who is eternal life .

God is with us as we be with him

2 Chronicles 15 - 2. ...The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"OK, explain to me what "saving faith" means to you."

Why continue to dodge? This isn't anywhere near a definition of saving faith.

So how is not acknowledging truth from the heart going to save anyone? Isn't it from the heart that one believes?

Said the master of dodgeball.

What truth is to be acknowledged? Really?

Just more dodgeball. It's clear you are unable to even explain your own viewpoint.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 6
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

I define truth as Jesus Himself. How about you?

Once again, you've explained nothing. But you've shown yourself to be quite the dodgeball player. Dodging, but never answering questions.

But your answer here does expose the gross lack of understanding of what Scripture says.

This is what Jesus said about truth:
John 18:37 - “You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

So, from your answer, Jesus came into the world to testify to Himself then. Brilliant.

He didn't testify to Himself. That i absurd, but essentially what you think.

But the real issue is your inability to define what saving faith is.

Here's what Peter acknowledged - that Jesus had the words of eternal life, and that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

OK, so what ARE the "words of eternal life" then? Maybe that will help you to define what saving faith is.

No acknowledgement of the cross, His death, nor of His blood is mentioned.

Sure, just more cross mocking. You really take the cake.

But, regardless of your ignorance of the Bible, Jesus DID talk about His death. The Last Supper was ALL ABOUT HIS DEATH. What do you think it was; just a wine tasting party?

Jesus noted HOW he was going to die in John 12:32-33
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

That's how one dies on a cross. They are "lifted up from the earth".

Now consider John 19:31-32
31 Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.” “But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected.
32 This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die.

Roman execution was by hanging on a cross. That's how they executed criminals.

I asked:
"Still not wanting to explain yourself.

You have quoted what Jesus said to a rich man many times about how to "enter life", so I guess that means "saving faith" is keeping the commandments. But I just wanted to e sure that's how you define what saving faith is.

If not, please advise."

Acknowledging the truth of these words is saving faith. You do not acknowledge, nor have faith in these words to enter life.

OK, finally. It is quite clear that your definition of "saving faith" is keeping the commandments.

So, instead of what to believe, you're perverted it into something YOU do. Slick.

And still NON saving, and NON faith. Unless you're thinking of it as faith in what you do.

Then I asked this:
"OK, let's go with this, for staters.

1. How many commandments?
2. How often?
3. What if one commandments is broken? Is that a deal breaker?"

1. Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, and not just some of them.

And you really think you've done all this your entire life? Just that claim is a lie. So, bingo.

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

2. As often as you desire to live in Him and obey His truth

3. No, it's not a deal breaker. If we repent we will receive forgiveness.

From #2, it would seem then that your notion of salvation is kinda like a yo-yo. Only when you're keeping the ENTIRE law (way more than 10 of them) are you saved. But even once if one is broken, down you go. Your theology is dizzying.

Jesus didn't tell the rich man he was wrong; in fact, you are the accuser.

Did I say that about what Jesus told the man? I did note all that Jesus told him, and how he would have eternal life, but the man went away sad, because he loved his bank account more than God.

This is what I actually said:
" But what Jesus did was show that the man had violated the first and greatest commandment. Which is why he left sad."

If you don't understand that Jesus was pointing out that he was breaking the first and greatest command, there's just no hope of you ever understanding anything in the Bible.

Come on, he left sad because Jesus said to sell all that he had and give to the poor.

There you go. He loved his bank account more than God. He totally broke the first and greatest command.

Then I said this:
"How do you or anyone else know that Jesus was more than mere human, but that He was the Son of God, and Deity? You don't. He obviously thought he could be good enough to enter heaven by his own efforts at being good."

To correct myself, I meant to say "how did the rich man know that Jesus was more than mere human? He couldn't have known that. But my initial question to you is still valid. How do you know that Jesus is more than just human? On what basis do you know that?

Here is where your faith is lacking. If you don't know Jesus was more than a mere human, your faith in Him is superficial.

If you had actually read my response, you would have known easily that I DO know that He is God.

Actually, the man answered Jesus' question to him. Let's look at Luke 10 to see what transpired.

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

As we see, eternal life was received in the OT. When asked how to inherit eternal life, Jesus asked him, 'what is written in the law?'. So by Jesus' words, we do know eternal life was in the law.

Wrong. The rich man of Matt 19 is NOT the lawyer in Luke 10. It's easy to see why.

While the rich man loved his riches more than God, meaning he had broken the first and greatest commandment, the lawyer acknowledged the first and greatest commandment.

When asked, the man said, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.'

We see that loving God with all our soul (life) and our neighbor as ourself, we will inherit eternal life. Have you ever noticed that Jesus said, 'you have answered rightly'? This was the right answer, but you won't hear many say that is the right answer today.[/QUOTE]
Are you kidding!!?? Jesus asked him what was written in the law when the lawyer asked him how to inherit eternal life. You make a great leap to assume/presume/guess that Jesus was telling him how to have eternal life.

It's interesting that your quote ended with v.28. So let's dig a little deeper.
v.29 - 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

This is where Jesus told the parable of the "good samaritan". Jesus used a people group that the Jews just hated. And Jesus showed that a samaritan was actually the good neighbor to a Jew, while other Jews avoided the beat-up Jew rather than help him.

I asked this:
"How does Jesus provide salvation? Be specific, please."
I will answer your question later; for now, it's back to work. Have a first and second commandment day.[/QUOTE]
Dodgeball is work??

 

[LoveofTruth]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why do you continue to disagree with Jesus in John 10:28. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

Jesus DIDN'T include any conditions in John 10:28 for recipients of eternal life. You keep doing so. Explain yourself.


Not blind. There is nothing to see. Including NO CONDITIONS in John 10:28, which you keep wanting to add.

There's no reason to respond to the rest of your very long and colorful post.

Our argument STOPS at John 10:28 in which you refuse to acknowledge that there are no conditions for recipients of eternal life to never perish.

Jesus said if we abide in him we will not be cast away or burned. We will never perish if we continue on the faith

Colossians 1 - 21. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; “

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And we all know this isn't relevant at all. There is no parallel between humanity and angels. To think so is to error."

Wrong again We see the connection in scripture they are even used as a warning

Where do we see any connection?

2 Peter 2 - 1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. ..4. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”

And

Jude 1 - 4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

And many are connected to the fallen angel the devil Satan

The only "connection" is judgment. Both men and angels will be judged. But there is no salvation connection or parallel between angels and men.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have explained John 10 in detail in a post and I take all of f what Jesus said not just a part of it

v.28 is a stand alone FACT statement. About the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life. For those who possess eternal life, they shall never perish.

And Jesus already made the point that whoever believes possesses eternal life. So the guarantee of not perishing begins the moment one believes.

Jesus said we must abide and continue in his word or we will not be his disciples and can be cut off and cast into the fire.

The 2 phrases connected by the "and" are not found in any single verse. You're trying to conflate Scripture in order for it to say what you want it to say.

John 8 - 31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”

Correct. But where is the statement about having to continue in order to stay saved?

 

[FreeGrace2]

We will never perish if we continue on the faith

No He didn't. Quote the verse you think says that.

Colossians 1 - 21. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; “

As I thought. This passage does NOT say what you wish it did.

What is the "if" condition tied to?

Let me mansplain it to you. Starting with the condition:

If you continue in the faith, yet now God reconciled in the death of His flesh, TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND UNBLAMEABLE AND UNREPROVABLE IN HIS SIGHT.

The verse is saying that God will present the believer (you) holy and blameless BUT ONLY IF you continue in the faith.

Makes perfect sense. If one does NOT continue in the faith, how can God present them holy and blameless?? He can't.

You've misread and misunderstood the passage.

 

[LoveofTruth]

v.28 is a stand alone FACT statement. About the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life. For those who possess eternal life, they shall never perish.

And Jesus already made the point that whoever believes possesses eternal life. So the guarantee of not perishing begins the moment one believes.


The 2 phrases connected by the "and" are not found in any single verse. You're trying to conflate Scripture in order for it to say what you want it to say.


Correct. But where is the statement about having to continue in order to stay saved?

Yes it is a statement about continuing in order to be saved.

And

Hebrews 3 - 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”

We must continue in faith and continue in His word until the end to be saved

Mark 13 - 13. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

Matthew 24 - 13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

And read the parable of the sower in Luke notice that the seed was received with joy in the second ground and did believed and were saved for a while but then they fell away and were lost.

 

[LoveofTruth]

No He didn't. Quote the verse you think says that.


As I thought. This passage does NOT say what you wish it did.

What is the "if" condition tied to?

Let me mansplain it to you. Starting with the condition:

If you continue in the faith, yet now God reconciled in the death of His flesh, TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND UNBLAMEABLE AND UNREPROVABLE IN HIS SIGHT.

The verse is saying that God will present the believer (you) holy and blameless BUT ONLY IF you continue in the faith.

Makes perfect sense. If one does NOT continue in the faith, how can God present them holy and blameless?? He can't.

You've misread and misunderstood the passage.

Not you misunderstood it and twist it to try and escape the clear meaning

He will present us Holy and unblamablevand unteproveable IF we continue in the faith. So if we don’t continue in the faith then we have lost the faith , cast off the faith, denied the faith and depart from God through an evil heart of unbelief, not faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God

And without holiness no man shall see the Lord as it says we should be presented holy but there is a condition and that is “if” we continue in the faith

Hebrews 12 - 14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15. Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16. Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears”

 

[LoveofTruth]

d.

What is the "if" condition tied to?

I think my friend, your entire argument is unraveling and falling apart

You have discovered through this talk a very serious aspect of continuing in the faith, and that is to be holy in Christ without which no man shall see the Lord. This is promised if we continue in the faith grounded and settled and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

But some did move away from the God who called them into the grace of Christ unto another gospel, read Galatians 1 and 3 and 4 and 5 rtc. Actually that book has many examples.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
v.28 is a stand alone FACT statement. About the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life. For those who possess eternal life, they shall never perish.

Yes it is a statement about continuing in order to be saved.

That means you are failing to understand the words. There is NOTHING about having to continue in anything in order to not perish.

And

Hebrews 3 - 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”

We must continue in faith and continue in His word until the end to be saved

Nope. We are partners of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence to the end.

And read the parable of the sower in Luke notice that the seed was received with joy in the second ground and did believed and were saved for a while but then they fell away and were lost.

Please point out where the word "lost" is found in Luke 8:13.

I will point out that it doesn't occur. You just like to keep adding your own opinion to Scripture.

The words "fell away" obviously refer back to "believed for a while". So, what they fell away from was their faith. Nothing about their salvation.

But the OSNAS crowd MUST make huge assumptions in order to make verses support their claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Let me mansplain it to you. Starting with the condition:

If you continue in the faith, yet now God reconciled in the death of His flesh, TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND UNBLAMEABLE AND UNREPROVABLE IN HIS SIGHT.

The verse is saying that God will present the believer (you) holy and blameless BUT ONLY IF you continue in the faith.

Makes perfect sense. If one does NOT continue in the faith, how can God present them holy and blameless?? He can't.

You've misread and misunderstood the passage."

Not you misunderstood it and twist it to try and escape the clear meaning

I stand by my statement. And I explained WHY you have misread the verses.

He will present us Holy and unblamablevand unteproveable IF we continue in the faith.

Exactly! That's what I said. It seems you're starting to get it.

So if we don’t continue in the faith then we have lost the faith , cast off the faith, denied the faith and depart from God through an evil heart of unbelief, not faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God

Nope. I guess not. Where in the world do all these words occur in the passage??

Hint: they don't. Only in your imagination.

And without holiness no man shall see the Lord as it says we should be presented holy but there is a condition and that is “if” we continue in the faith

What makes anyone think that being "presented holy" means "stay saved"?

There are a number of verses that command us to be holy. I suppose you take those verses as being commanded to be saved. Is that correct? If you're consistent, the answer must be 'yes'.

Hebrews 12 - 14. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that this verse encourages believers to be holy in order for others to see Christ in us.

Ever heard the phrase "to be Christ-like"? That's what this verse is speaking about.

If a believer isn't holy, then no one will see Christ in him/her. Quite simple, really.

15. Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16. Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears”

OK, so where are the words "lose salvation" here? I sure don't see them.

But I know one MUST assume a great deal in order to insert such an idea into these verses.

But they don't occur here. Or anywhere else.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"What is the "if" condition tied to?"

I think my friend, your entire argument is unraveling and falling apart

How does one get "unravelling/falling apart" from my question?

Oh, right. Lots and lots of huge assumptions and presumptions.

You have discovered through this talk a very serious aspect of continuing in the faith, and that is to be holy in Christ without which no man shall see the Lord.

Of course this is obvious. And that's exactly James' point in ch 2. Demonstrate your faith by deeds so others can see your faith.

iow, without deeds, no one will see your faith.

This is promised if we continue in the faith grounded and settled and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

OK, and no mention at all about losing salvation. So it's really a mystery to me why you continue to think salvation can be lost.

But some did move away from the God who called them into the grace of Christ unto another gospel, read Galatians 1 and 3 and 4 and 5 rtc. Actually that book has many examples.

Yes, they sure did. But Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. No conditions. But you have to add conditions to make your theory work.

 

[EmSw]

I asked:
"OK, explain to me what "saving faith" means to you."

Why continue to dodge? This isn't anywhere near a definition of saving faith.

Said the master of dodgeball.

Just more dodgeball. It's clear you are unable to even explain your own viewpoint.

If you don't acknowledge truth from the heart, is faith just a mental assent to you?

Once again, you've explained nothing. But you've shown yourself to be quite the dodgeball player. Dodging, but never answering questions.

But your answer here does expose the gross lack of understanding of what Scripture says.

Luke 18
10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—GROSSLY LACKING UNDERSTANDING, WANTING TO KEEP YOUR HOLY COMMANDMENTS, PLAYING DODGEBALL, or even as this ONE WHO BELIEVES YOUR WORD ABOUT KEEPING YOUR COMMANDMENTS TO ENTER LIFE. 12 I HAVE ALL UNDERSTANDING; I DO NOT NEED ALL YOUR WORD, JUST THE PARTS I LIKE, and I SURELY DON'T NEED TO OBEY YOU NOR ABIDE IN YOU TO HAVE LIFE.

This is what Jesus said about truth:
John 18:37 - “You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

So, from your answer, Jesus came into the world to testify to Himself then. Brilliant.

He didn't testify to Himself. That i absurd, but essentially what you think.

You speak against God's word long enough, and the truth in your heart will eventually come out. Every true believer knows in his heart that Jesus is the Truth.

Perhaps you just don't know what 'testify' means, and if so, you will find out now and maybe change your mind about 'testifying to the truth'.

It means to bear record, be a witness, to give testimony, and to conjure (to bring to mind). So Jesus was a witness to the truth, He gave testimony to the truth, and He was a witness to the truth.

John 5:33
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

John the Baptist testified unto the truth, that is, Jesus.

John 5:37
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

The Father testified of Jesus, Who is Truth Itself.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The scriptures testified of Jesus, Who is Truth Itself.

John 5:18
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Jesus testified of Himself, and did the Father. So tell us how brilliant this is.

But the real issue is your inability to define what saving faith is.

OK, so what ARE the "words of eternal life" then? Maybe that will help you to define what saving faith is.

I did define saving faith; what is it that you don't believe?

Any word which came from Jesus are words of eternal life, just as Peter said.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Do believe His words are life?

Sure, just more cross mocking. You really take the cake.

I'll take you have no idea what mocking is.

But, regardless of your ignorance of the Bible, Jesus DID talk about His death. The Last Supper was ALL ABOUT HIS DEATH. What do you think it was; just a wine tasting party?

"Oh yeah God, one more thing, I am thankful I am not ignorant like this man", said the free gracer.

Jesus noted HOW he was going to die in John 12:32-33
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

That's how one dies on a cross. They are "lifted up from the earth".

Please note the reason He was lifted up. It wasn't for forgiveness, eternal life, nor for salvation; it was to draw all people to Himself; therefore reconciliation or atonement.

Now consider John 19:31-32
31 Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.” “But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected.
32 This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die.

Roman execution was by hanging on a cross. That's how they executed criminals.

As I have said before, His death was not the Paschal sacrifice; it was a heathen, godless sacrifice of the Romans, as you noted. Executing criminals on a cross has nothing to do with the OT sacrifice...absolutely nothing! Thanks for pointing that out above.

I asked:
"Still not wanting to explain yourself.

You have quoted what Jesus said to a rich man many times about how to "enter life", so I guess that means "saving faith" is keeping the commandments. But I just wanted to e sure that's how you define what saving faith is.

If not, please advise."

OK, finally. It is quite clear that your definition of "saving faith" is keeping the commandments.

I've told you before what a saving faith is, yet you fail to admit I said it.

So, instead of what to believe, you're perverted it into something YOU do. Slick.

And still NON saving, and NON faith. Unless you're thinking of it as faith in what you do.

Is your faith an idle faith?

Then I asked this:
"OK, let's go with this, for staters.

1. How many commandments?
2. How often?
3. What if one commandments is broken? Is that a deal breaker?"

And you really think you've done all this your entire life? Just that claim is a lie. So, bingo.

Where in the world did you get that I said I've done all this my entire life?

(Announcer over the loud speaker) Would someone tell that person who yelled 'bingo' that we are playing chess, and he needs to be quiet!

From #2, it would seem then that your notion of salvation is kinda like a yo-yo. Only when you're keeping the ENTIRE law (way more than 10 of them) are you saved. But even once if one is broken, down you go. Your theology is dizzying.

Your lack of OT salvation is quite obvious. I don't think I would announce to the world of your uninformed view of OT salvation. It is better to keep your mouth shut and just let others think you don't know about OT salvation, than to open your mouth and prove you don't know.

Did I say that about what Jesus told the man? I did note all that Jesus told him, and how he would have eternal life, but the man went away sad, because he loved his bank account more than God.

This is what I actually said:
" But what Jesus did was show that the man had violated the first and greatest commandment. Which is why he left sad."

Keeping His commandments is the entrance to eternal life; giving all he had and give to the poor is the entrance to being perfect. There is a difference you know?

If you don't understand that Jesus was pointing out that he was breaking the first and greatest command, there's just no hope of you ever understanding anything in the Bible.

'Dear God, as a free gracer, I would like to thank you I am not like that other man, who has no hope of ever understanding anything in the Bible. Thank you God that I am much better than he is.'

There you go. He loved his bank account more than God. He totally broke the first and greatest command.

Do you have a bank account? Would you give all you had to the poor? Where would you stand? Would you go away sad? Would you break the first and greatest commandment? Do you love your money more than God?

Then I said this:
"How do you or anyone else know that Jesus was more than mere human, but that He was the Son of God, and Deity? You don't. He obviously thought he could be good enough to enter heaven by his own efforts at being good."

To correct myself, I meant to say "how did the rich man know that Jesus was more than mere human? He couldn't have known that. But my initial question to you is still valid. How do you know that Jesus is more than just human? On what basis do you know that?

If you had actually read my response, you would have known easily that I DO know that He is God.

Why couldn't he have known Jesus was more than mere human? Plenty of people knew Jesus was more than mere human. Since it seems you don't know if He was more than mere human, how do you know He is the Savior?

Wrong. The rich man of Matt 19 is NOT the lawyer in Luke 10. It's easy to see why.

While the rich man loved his riches more than God, meaning he had broken the first and greatest commandment, the lawyer acknowledged the first and greatest commandment.

When asked, the man said, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.'

Are you kidding!!?? Jesus asked him what was written in the law when the lawyer asked him how to inherit eternal life. You make a great leap to assume/presume/guess that Jesus was telling him how to have eternal life.

Of course not, Jesus wasn't talking about eternal life, He was talking about buying an elephant from the Bronx zoo.

It's interesting that your quote ended with v.28. So let's dig a little deeper.
v.29 - 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

This is where Jesus told the parable of the "good samaritan". Jesus used a people group that the Jews just hated. And Jesus showed that a samaritan was actually the good neighbor to a Jew, while other Jews avoided the beat-up Jew rather than help him.

I asked this:
"How does Jesus provide salvation? Be specific, please."

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee (please notice, no cross, no blood, and no death is mentioned in saving her).

Luke 18
29 And he said unto them, verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

John 5
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved,

Are these words of Jesus specific enough for you?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Please point out where the word "lost" is found in Luke 8:13.

I will point out that it doesn't occur. You just like to keep adding your own opinion to Scripture.

The words "fell away" obviously refer back to "believed for a while". So, what they fell away from was their faith. Nothing about their salvation.

While I agree that the word "lost" is not in the text the meaning is very clear from the text and I disagree with you again here,

it says

"11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts,[first point, the word is the seed sown in their hearts. This doe not mean the seed is in union with their hearts at the new birth yet, for they have to receive the word first to be saved]

"...lest they should believe and be saved.[next point, if they had believed in this first part they would have been saved. This is very clear from the text]

"13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy;[here we see that they received the word read John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

"..and these have no root, which for a while believe,[here we see that the ones with this heart receive the word and believe for a while. That CLEARLY means they were SAVED for a while. We already saw that if the ones on the previous ground had believed they would be saved. These ones believed and were saved. But they only believed for a while. In the time of temptation they fell away. Perhaps many that followed Jesus were like this believing for a while then fell away. And Jesus knew who they were.]

"..and in time of temptation fall away."[here we see the end of those who only believe for a while, and who are only saved for a while, they fall away. This is to fall away from Salvation as the text shows. For they only believed ( and were saved) for a while. This is very clear to the unbiased reader. The word "fall away, means to depart, be removed, to desist, to revolt And as we read in Hebrews 3;12 believers are warned not to have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. ](Luke 8:11-13 KJV)

So, as you can see i was correct in my wording even though the word "lost" was not in the text. The text shows clearly that these only had salvation for a while and then fell away ) departed) from God and the word in their heart. They did not continue in His word and abide in him.

 

[LoveofTruth]

OK, so where are the words "lose salvation" here? I sure don't see them.

to "fail of the grace of God" is to be lost, for by grace are we saved. if we do despite the spirit of grace and fail of the grace and if we are removed from him that called us into the grace of Christ then we are lost.

"The grace of God that bringeth salvation..."

some are in danger of "falling from grace and then if they do Christ shall profit them nothing.

"2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.[what profit does Christ have to us? salvation and life and he gives us eternal life as we abide in him. Of he profits us nothing them the person is in danger of being lost in the end if they die in that state.] 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you,[what effect does Christ have to believers? salvation and all good things, without him we can do nothing and are withered and die spiritually] whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[in this case they were not in the grace of salvation, or the gospel of grace they were removed from Him that called them into the grace of Christ unto another gospel and accursed as Paul said in chapter 1](Galatians 5:2-4 KJV)

 

[FreeGrace2]

If you don't acknowledge truth from the heart, is faith just a mental assent to you?

You just can't seem to resist asking such stupid questions, huh.

Apparently you've never actually studied how the Bible uses the word "heart".

You speak against God's word long enough, and the truth in your heart will eventually come out.

Oh, this is rich. Who's the one who disrespects the apostle Paul, and who mocks the cross of Christ.

Every true believer knows in his heart that Jesus is the Truth.

I've never ever doubted that.

John the Baptist testified unto the truth, that is, Jesus.

So why have you rejected the Truth that Jesus had to die for the sins of mankind on a cross, you know, the cross that you have mocked?

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The scriptures testified of Jesus, Who is Truth Itself.

This verse directly refutes your unbiblical view of keeping the law for eternal life.

I did define saving faith; what is it that you don't believe?

I don't believe your claim that you defined it.

Any word which came from Jesus are words of eternal life, just as Peter said.

Where did Peter say "ANY" word?

Do believe His words are life?

Of course.

Please note the reason He was lifted up. It wasn't for forgiveness, eternal life, nor for salvation; it was to draw all people to Himself; therefore reconciliation or atonement.

What ignorance. The reconciliation or atonement was accomplished ON THE CROSS, the one you keep mocking.

As I have said before, His death was not the Paschal sacrifice; it was a heathen, godless sacrifice of the Romans, as you noted. Executing criminals on a cross has nothing to do with the OT sacrifice...absolutely nothing! Thanks for pointing that out above.

Go ahead and mock all you want. Everyone will be judged on EVERYTHING they say.

I've told you before what a saving faith is, yet you fail to admit I said it.

Your vagueness made it impossible to decipher anything clear.

Your lack of OT salvation is quite obvious. I don't think I would announce to the world of your uninformed view of OT salvation. It is better to keep your mouth shut and just let others think you don't know about OT salvation, than to open your mouth and prove you don't know.

You've certainly announced to this forum of your uninformed view of much of Scripture.

Keeping His commandments is the entrance to eternal life

Please go back and read John 5:39 again, and again, until it actually soaks in.

 

[FreeGrace2]

While I agree that the word "lost" is not in the text the meaning is very clear from the text you and you are wrong again here,

You are free to think whatever you want.

it says

"11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts,[first point, the word is the seed sown in their hearts. This doe not mean the seed is in union with their hearts at the new birth yet, for they have to receive the word first to be saved]

"...lest they should believe and be saved.[next point, if they had believed in this first part they would have been saved. This is very clear from the text]

"13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy;[here we see that they received the word read John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

"..and these have no root, which for a while believe,[here we see that the ones with this heart receive the word and believe for a while. That CLEARLY means they were SAVED for a while. We already saw that if the ones on the previous ground had believed they would be saved. These ones believed and were saved. But they only believed for a while. In the time of temptation they fell away. Perhaps many that followed Jesus were like this believing for a while then fell away. And Jesus knew who they were.]

"..and in time of temptation fall away."[here we see the end of those who only believe for a while, and who are only saved for a while, they fall away. This is to fall away from Salvation as the text shows. For they only believed ( and were saved) for a while. This is very clear to the unbiased reader. The word "fall away, means to depart, be removed, to desist, to revolt And as we read in Hebrews 3;12 believers are warned not to have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. ](Luke 8:11-13 KJV)

So, as you can see i was correct in my wording even though the word "lost" was not in the text.

So, as I DO see, you are still incorrect. Jesus said nothing about losing salvation. That's just your hopeful opinion about what He did say.

The "falling away" refers to "believed for a while". They fell away from believing. That should be obvious, and it is, except to those with an unbiblical agenda.

The text shows clearly that these only had salvation for a while and then fell away ) departed) from God and the word in their heart.

No, they believed for a while and then didn't believe. That is EXACTLY what Jesus said.

You've distorted His words way out of shape.

They did not continue in His word and abide in him.

That is correct, however. And what was the result? Hell, as you presume? No, they bore no fruit. Which was the point of the parable.

Hm. The SAME POINT Jesus made to His 11 disciples in John 15. Only those who abide in Him will bear fruit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

to "fail of the grace of God" is to be lost, for by grace are we saved.

I will again point out the problem with your understanding of this phrase. If it did mean that, then Jesus was WRONG in John 10:28. He would have HAD TO include this condition for recipients to not perish.

He didn't because there are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to not perish.

Which is in direct opposition to your view.

"The grace of God that bringeth salvation..."

What you fail to understand is that though humans can fail the grace of God, God's grace NEVER fails us. We are saved by grace and kept by that same grace.

some are in danger of "falling from grace and then if they do Christ shall profit them nothing.

Do you have any understanding at all about blessings? Apparently not.

Again, if "profiting nothing" did refer to losing salvation, then Jesus was WRONG in John 10:28.

I just don't know WHY this isn't sinking into your head.

 

[EmSw]

You just can't seem to resist asking such stupid questions, huh.

Apparently you've never actually studied how the Bible uses the word "heart".

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Matthew 9:4
And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

Matthew 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 15:8
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Matthew 18:35
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Oh, this is rich. Who's the one who disrespects the apostle Paul, and who mocks the cross of Christ.

And it is okay for you to disrespect men?

And it is okay for you to worship and idolize the Roman wooden cross?

So why have you rejected the Truth that Jesus had to die for the sins of mankind on a cross, you know, the cross that you have mocked?

Why have you rejected the truth of keeping the commandments to enter life, you know the commandments you have mocked?

This verse directly refutes your unbiblical view of keeping the law for eternal life.

Isn't it Jesus and the truth He spoke, by which we enter eternal life?

I don't believe your claim that you defined it.

Where did Peter say "ANY" word?

John 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

I see you don't believe all words from Jesus are eternal life. Jesus is Life and Truth Itself, so that which proceeds from His is Life and Truth.

What ignorance. The reconciliation or atonement was accomplished ON THE CROSS, the one you keep mocking.

'Thank you God that I am not ignorant like this other man.'

Proverbs 16:18

Go ahead and mock all you want. Everyone will be judged on EVERYTHING they say.

Your vagueness made it impossible to decipher anything clear.

You've certainly announced to this forum of your uninformed view of much of Scripture.

Please go back and read John 5:39 again, and again, until it actually soaks in.

John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone...