Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[Dig4truth]

What did He mean by being "born again", in the passage below?

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Those who have placed their faith in Christ have been "born again" of the Spirit of God.

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

Nicodemus was supposed to have known what being born again was since he was a teacher in Israel. So this would not have been a new teaching.

13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

No one has ascended into heaven except Yeshua including Moses, Elijah, King David or even Adam.

I find it interesting that Yeshua put these topics together.

Being born again certainly includes what you have said. But it will not be realized until the resurrection. We have the Holy Spirit of Promise within us and when we are resurrected we will be born again with our new spiritual bodies. Then we can be with Yeshua. Before that point we are asleep, i.e., dead. Without a body we cannot be alive.

Many wil say that sin does not cause death. The serpent in the Garden said that. But Scripture says that we will die. In fact it is appointed for man to die once.

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

When Yeshua spoke of believers not dying He was speaking about our ultimate condition, everlasting life. He would not contradict Scripture or say something that is demonstrably false.

 

[Dig4truth]

From the book Immortal by Lex Meyer

pp.96,97
Some argue that we are already born of the spirit when we receive the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, but Paul describes the spiritual birth as an event that will take place in the future.

“as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man”iv

This is spoken about in a future tense. “We shall” bear the image of Yeshua in the future. He is making his case for the resurrection, when we will be given a spiritual body. In fact, he began his argument with the phrase, “So also is the resurrection of the dead.” Therefore, we cannot claim we are currently born again, because this event will take place at the resurrection.

So, what is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and what is its purpose in the life of a believer? Paul explains that the Spirit was given as a “guarantee” of the heavenly body we will receive.

"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee."i

The Holy Spirit is given to believers as a guarantee that we will be born of the Spirit, when we are “clothed” with the spiritual body that is “from heaven”. Right now, we have the Spirit dwelling in us, but at the resurrection, we will be born of the spirit. (emphasis original)


http://www.immortalthebook.com/docs/Immortal-Book.pdf

 

[Douggg]

I prefer to believe the Bible and any publication that speaks truth about the scriptures gets my attention. It's not about dogma or affiliation, it's about truth.

You assert that the soul goes to be with God at death but the Scripture clearly says that the "spirit" returns to the Lord which gave it.

then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

Look also at Psalms 146:4

You have stated that the soul goes to be with God but the scriptures say that the spirit goes to be with God. You do not have an issue with me but with the Scripture.

Hi Dig4truth. the spirit you are referring to is the life giving spirit God imparts on all living creatures, equal in all living beings. It could be thought of as a force I suppose - for lack of a better word.

Differently, the soul is our core being which differs each of us from each other inwardly, living within our bodies, also differing each of us, outwardly. Our souls are infused to our body... while we all alive.

When a person dies, that infusion is broken, as the life force of the body, the spirit, is taken away.

Being born again applies to the condition of the soul being repaired from the consequences of sin, that entered the world and the human race when Adam first sinned. Jesus's death on the cross his shed blood, his life for ours, washes away our sins as though they never happened, God declares.

Upon receiving Christ, believing upon him, a person is born again, a new creation in Christ. The body at that time is not born again - it is the soul that is born again, redeemed from the power of sin to inflict eternal destruction.

So the soul of someone who has been saved, born again, is appointed to go to be with the Lord upon physical death - as Paul stated to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

The resurrection of the dead is to redeem our destroyed bodies made of dust in exchange for spiritual bodies, also called heavenly - which it seems to be saying bodies in similitude to those of the angels - given that Jesus said in the resurrection, them resurrected will be like the angels.

We thus will have the Holy Spirit's presence in our soul infused into an incorruptible body.

In the rapture, our bodies are instantly transformed into the spiritual bodies - which does not mean ghostly - but in similitude to the angels. Ultimately, being both our souls and bodies redeemed.

Basically, I don't think we can comprehend our eternal incorruptible bodies - so I think we have to trust God and leave it up to Him - and knowing Him what He did into creating our current world - it is going to be awesome !

1Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[BABerean2]

Being born again certainly includes what you have said. But it will not be realized until the resurrection. We have the Holy Spirit of Promise within us and when we are resurrected we will be born again with our new spiritual bodies.

You seem to be denying the ministry of the Holy Spirit which is a present reality in the life of believers, who are a part of the New Covenant Church.


Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.


2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


Do you deny that the Apostles were indwelled with the Holy Spirit, during their lifetime?

Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(Those who are of the world cannot know the Holy Spirit, who dwells in believers.)


Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Act_2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."


The Holy Spirit is a present reality in the lives of those who belong to Christ, as found in the scripture above.
It is not waiting on the resurrection.

How much clearer could it be?

.

 

[Dig4truth]

Hi Dig4truth. the spirit you are referring to is the life giving spirit God imparts on all living creatures, equal in all living beings. It could be thought of as a force I suppose - for lack of a better word.

I suppose so.

Differently, the soul is our core being which differs each of us from each other inwardly, living within our bodies, also differing each of us, outwardly. Our souls are infused to our body... while we all alive.

Ok, but you bring up a great point; that our souls are linked to "infused" to our bodies.

When a person dies, that infusion is broken, as the life force of the body, the spirit, is taken away.

Ok. That is the way I see it also based on the scriptures.

Being born again applies to the condition of the soul being repaired from the consequences of sin, that entered the world and the human race when Adam first sinned. Jesus's death on the cross his shed blood, his life for ours, washes away our sins as though they never happened, God declares.

I would rather say that being born again is receiving the Holy Spirit as a promise that one day we will rise incorruptible and in an umpershible body to be with Messiah.

Upon receiving Christ, believing upon him, a person is born again, a new creation in Christ. The body at that time is not born again - it is the soul that is born again, redeemed from the power of sin to inflict eternal destruction.

I don't know that I would express it that way. I would say that our soul is sealed for our resurrection. It is guaranteed to be raised incorruptible and unperishable.

So the soul of someone who has been saved, born again, is appointed to go to be with the Lord upon physical death - as Paul stated to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

But you are forgetting about the point you made, the connection of the soul to the body. We cannot "live" without s body.

The resurrection of the dead is to redeem our destroyed bodies made of dust in exchange for spiritual bodies, also called heavenly - which it seems to be saying bodies in similitude to those of the angels - given that Jesus said in the resurrection, them resurrected will be like the angels.
We thus will have the Holy Spirit's presence in our soul infused into an incorruptible body.

Listen to what you just said; "the resurrection of the dead". Remember that this is covered in the scriptures, "how are the dead raised"? I Cor 15 (see below)

We thus will have the Holy Spirit's presence in our soul infused into an incorruptible body.

In the rapture, our bodies are instantly transformed into the spiritual bodies - which does not mean ghostly - but in similitude to the angels. Ultimately, being both our souls and bodies redeemed.

Basically, I don't think we can comprehend our eternal incorruptible bodies - so I think we have to trust God and leave it up to Him - and knowing Him what He did into creating our current world - it is going to be awesome !

1Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

We will not receive our new "resurrection" bodies until the resurrection. Until then we sleep.


20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


I hope that all can see there is an appointed time for the resurrection. At that time the "dead" will be raised incorruptible and given their new bodies.

 

[Postvieww]

Obviously the dead will be raised from the grave and they will just walk around drinking coffee and talking about the last several super bowls.

Or you could read 1 Thess. 4:16-17 for context...........
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words".

Of course the word heaven is not there either so I guess the resurrected saints will come up, and Jesus will come down and meet them in the air and they will just hang around there in the clouds. I just can not figure out what else those verses could possibly imply.

To find out what they imply maybe we should just look at all of the verses that talk about His coming and see if we can find just one that says He comes resurrects the saints and takes them back to heaven. I’m still looking when you find one please point it out.

The problem here is many see what they want to see or need to see in order to support the doctrine.

Matthew 24 has a lot about his coming but nothing about His “going” back to heaven.

Matthew 25:64 speaks of His coming but not His going.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 talks of His coming and what He does but nothing about His going.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 really doesn’t mention His coming but from other passages we know this is what happens when He comes, no mention of His going.

1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 His coming no going.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 His coming no going.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 His coming no going. Tells us we shall ever be with the Lord but no where says He goes back to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 His coming no going

James 5:7-8 His coming no going

1 John 2:28 His coming no going

Zechariah 14 has a lot to say about what happens when He comes but is silent about any return to heaven.

Could it just be when He comes He stays?

The point here is the idea Jesus comes and takes the resurrected and glorified church back to heaven for 7 years is a fantasy not found in scripture.

 

[seventysevens]

If you have trouble speaking to me as an adult then I can find other people who will.

Wonderful ! I gave you the answer at the time you asked , you disagreed then you give me as the answer what I told you to begin with - it not my fault that you choose to be blind

 

[Douggg]

We will not receive our new "resurrection" bodies until the resurrection. Until then we sleep.

The body sleeps.

But you are forgetting about the point you made, the connection of the soul to the body. We cannot "live" without s body.

The soul, even after death of the body, is alive in Christ and with Christ.

Matthew 22:
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


John 11:
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

__________________________________________________________________

Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus to Peter, James, and John on the Mt of Transfiguration.

Matthew 17:1-9

_________________________________________________________
Revelation 6:9-10

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So their souls are in heaven, and have some sort of form, to be cloaked in white robes.

 

[Major1]

To find out what they imply maybe we should just look at all of the verses that talk about His coming and see if we can find just one that says He comes resurrects the saints and takes them back to heaven. I’m still looking when you find one please point it out.

The problem here is many see what they want to see or need to see in order to support the doctrine.

Matthew 24 has a lot about his coming but nothing about His “going” back to heaven.

Matthew 25:64 speaks of His coming but not His going.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 talks of His coming and what He does but nothing about His going.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 really doesn’t mention His coming but from other passages we know this is what happens when He comes, no mention of His going.

1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 His coming no going.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 His coming no going.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 His coming no going. Tells us we shall ever be with the Lord but no where says He goes back to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 His coming no going

James 5:7-8 His coming no going

1 John 2:28 His coming no going

Zechariah 14 has a lot to say about what happens when He comes but is silent about any return to heaven.

Could it just be when He comes He stays?

The point here is the idea Jesus comes and takes the resurrected and glorified church back to heaven for 7 years is a fantasy not found in scripture.

Yes. He comes and stays. He does that 7 years after He comes and removes the church from God's wrath.

At that time He stands on the Mt. of Olives.

Did Jesus return to Heaven after He rose from the dead?

 

[Major1]

As is the word "computer" is not found in the Bible but it is a reality as well. The challange is to find the doctrine in the Bible that we go to heaven when we die. So far I have not seen any evidence in the scriptures.

You can not find the Scriptures which say we go to heaven when we die?????

That is your question???

Luke 23:43.......
“Truly I say to you. Today you will be with me in Paradise”.

Acts 7:55-60.....“But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

2 Corinthians 5: 1- 6, 8 .........
“For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord” and “We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

 

[Dig4truth]

The body sleeps.

The soul, even after death of the body, is alive in Christ and with Christ.

Matthew 22:
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I would first point out that what is in view is the "resurrection of the dead".

I would also point out that it is said of Abraham that he has not received the promise.

Heb 11:39-40 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They have not received the promise but they will. They will live an everlasting life beginning at the resurrection. God is certainly a God of the living. As Job said; "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;"

John 11:
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
_________________________________________________________________

Notice what Yeshua said; "though he were dead, yet he shall live".

Also, if you are alive when Yeshua returns you will not die but you will be changed.

Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus to Peter, James, and John on the Mt of Transfiguration.

Matthew 17:1-9

_________________________________________________________

This was called a "vision". A vision is not something real but does have significant meaning.

Revelation 6:9-10

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So their souls are in heaven, and have some sort of form, to be cloaked in white robes.

It is clear that they do not have their glorified bodies yet which disqualifies them from entering heaven.
This is likely similar to Abel's blood as it "spoke" to God from the ground. Likewise they will be avenged but they have to rest (sleep) a while longer. Remember that it is in Revelation which uses much apocalyptic language and much symbolic language.

 

[Postvieww]

Yes. He comes and stays. He does that 7 years after He comes and removes the church from God's wrath.

The question here is can you show from scripture that He takes anyone back to heaven for 7 years? We both know there is not one passage in the entire Bible that says that. To arrive at that conclusion one has to interpret that scenario into multiple passages. The only way to show multiple future comings of the Lord is to separate all coming passages based on the differences in information given in each. The problem with that there are no 2 coming of the Lord passages with the same set of facts. All of those facts will harmonize nicely into one future coming if allowed to.

At that time He stands on the Mt. of Olives.

There is only one coming of the Lord yet future. Before He stands on the Mt. of Olives we will meet Him in the air. It’s one coming.

Did Jesus return to Heaven after He rose from the dead?

Of course He did and that in no way supports the notion that He takes anyone back when He comes again.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Things that harmonize in these two passages.


1. The Lord coming


2. Clouds


3. angels / archangel


4. trumpet/ trump of God


5. gather His elect / meet the Lord in the air



1 Corinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Things which are different between 1 Corinthians 15 & 1 Thessalonians 4, which most pre-tribbers acknowledge as the same coming.

1. No mention of the Lord coming in 1 Corinthians 15 as is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4

2. No mention of a gathering in 1 Corinthians 15 when it is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.

3. No mention of any angels in 1 Corinthians 15 as mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.

4. No mention of those alive being changed in 1 Thessalonians 4 as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15.


The point here is that to take the differences in passage to build a case for a pre-trib and a separate second, second coming is not sound exegesis IMHO.

 

[iamlamad]

The question here is can you show from scripture that He takes anyone back to heaven for 7 years? We both know there is not one passage in the entire Bible that says that. To arrive at that conclusion one has to interpret that scenario into multiple passages. The only way to show multiple future comings of the Lord is to separate all coming passages based on the differences in information given in each. The problem with that there are no 2 coming of the Lord passages with the same set of facts. All of those facts will harmonize nicely into one future coming if allowed to.



There is only one coming of the Lord yet future. Before He stands on the Mt. of Olives we will meet Him in the air. It’s one coming.




Of course He did and that in no way supports the notion that He takes anyone back when He comes again.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Things that harmonize in these two passages.


1. The Lord coming


2. Clouds


3. angels / archangel


4. trumpet/ trump of God


5. gather His elect / meet the Lord in the air



1 Corinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Things which are different between 1 Corinthians 15 & 1 Thessalonians 4, which most pre-tribbers acknowledge as the same coming.

1. No mention of the Lord coming in 1 Corinthians 15 as is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4

2. No mention of a gathering in 1 Corinthians 15 when it is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.

3. No mention of any angels in 1 Corinthians 15 as mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.

4. No mention of those alive being changed in 1 Thessalonians 4 as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15.


The point here is that to take the differences in passage to build a case for a pre-trib and a separate second, second coming is not sound exegesis IMHO.

Since you have it all figured out, all I can say is, you are going to be very shocked when He comes pretrib. Now, whether or not posttrib believers will be ready is another question.

 

[iamlamad]

I would first point out that what is in view is the "resurrection of the dead".

I would also point out that it is said of Abraham that he has not received the promise.

Heb 11:39-40 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

They have not received the promise but they will. They will live an everlasting life beginning at the resurrection. God is certainly a God of the living. As Job said; "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;"





Notice what Yeshua said; "though he were dead, yet he shall live".

Also, if you are alive when Yeshua returns you will not die but you will be changed.



_________________________________________________________

This was called a "vision". A vision is not something real but does have significant meaning.

It is clear that they do not have their glorified bodies yet which disqualifies them from entering heaven.
This is likely similar to Abel's blood as it "spoke" to God from the ground. Likewise they will be avenged but they have to rest (sleep) a while longer. Remember that it is in Revelation which uses much apocalyptic language and much symbolic language.

What a STARK contrast between your beliefs and what Paul believed. He believed (and wrote) that as soon as a saved human being dies, they are present with the Lord. That means where the Lord is - in His presence. And over the past few years, many have been taken to heaven to SEE IT, and allowed to come back and tell others. Some of these people have SEEN Abraham. He was, without much doubt, one of the elders raised when Jesus raised. He now has his resurrection body.

Did you just not know or not believe that when Jesus arose He took all those captive in Hades to heaven with Him? Where do you imagine the spirits of the righteous who have died ARE? Maybe hiding in the cloud?

 

[Dig4truth]

The question here is can you show from scripture that He takes anyone back to heaven for 7 years? We both know there is not one passage in the entire Bible that says that. To arrive at that conclusion one has to interpret that scenario into multiple passages. The only way to show multiple future comings of the Lord is to separate all coming passages based on the differences in information given in each. The problem with that there are no 2 coming of the Lord passages with the same set of facts. All of those facts will harmonize nicely into one future coming if allowed to.



There is only one coming of the Lord yet future. Before He stands on the Mt. of Olives we will meet Him in the air. It’s one coming.




Of course He did and that in no way supports the notion that He takes anyone back when He comes again.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Things that harmonize in these two passages.


1. The Lord coming


2. Clouds


3. angels / archangel


4. trumpet/ trump of God


5. gather His elect / meet the Lord in the air



1 Corinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Things which are different between 1 Corinthians 15 & 1 Thessalonians 4, which most pre-tribbers acknowledge as the same coming.

1. No mention of the Lord coming in 1 Corinthians 15 as is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4

2. No mention of a gathering in 1 Corinthians 15 when it is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.

3. No mention of any angels in 1 Corinthians 15 as mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.

4. No mention of those alive being changed in 1 Thessalonians 4 as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15.


The point here is that to take the differences in passage to build a case for a pre-trib and a separate second, second coming is not sound exegesis IMHO.

Good points.
I did a study a while back and what I found was that in every instance where Yeshua's coming is spoken of it is in the singular sense.


"I have come to the conclusion that all the passages using the word parousía, point to a single event yet to come at the end of the age. Each time it appears in the Greek New Testament the Definite Article appears with it, making it theparousía. This lends emphasis that there will be one grand parousía of the Lord Jesus Christ."

The Parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ

I John 2:28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. (parousia)

 

[iamlamad]

This is a posttrib viewpoint on John 14:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

Is this really the intent of the author here? I doubt it seriously!

No, Jesus went to heaven to build mansions and He will be in heaven for all of the 70th week. Therefore, IF He returns pretrib FOR His saints, it is very obvious that He will return to heaven for those 7 years.

Millions of believers believe He will return pretrib. I think scriptures prove He will. The great crowd seen in heaven are in chapter 7, not is chapter 20.

 

[Postvieww]

This is a posttrib viewpoint on John 14:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

Is this really the intent of the author here? I doubt it seriously!

No, Jesus went to heaven to build mansions and He will be in heaven for all of the 70th week. Therefore, IF He returns pretrib FOR His saints, it is very obvious that He will return to heaven for those 7 years.

Millions of believers believe He will return pretrib. I think scriptures prove He will. The great crowd seen in heaven are in chapter 7, not is chapter 20.

Jesus has not been building temporary (7 years) housing for the last 2000 years. The mansions He has for us are for eternity described in Revelation 21, brought down FROM heaven to the new earth.

 

[Postvieww]

Since you have it all figured out, all I can say is, you are going to be very shocked when He comes pretrib. Now, whether or not posttrib believers will be ready is another question.

No scriptural rebuttal to the substance of my post?

 

[seventysevens]

It truly is astonishing when people insist and demand that the scripture has to say things like " I will take to to heaven then return to earth " before they begin to understand

Jesus has not been building temporary (7 years) housing for the last 2000 years. The mansions He has for us are for eternity described in Revelation 21, brought down FROM heaven to the new earth.

So where is the scriptural proof that Jesus said that he is not taking people to heaven ?
There is none at all as that is just mere assumption.
Refusing to acknowledge all three harvests and forcing it into a onetime event is not supported by scripture as scripture clearly teaches 3 harvests
Ask God why did he take the extreme method of having Issac as a human sacrifice up until Abram chose to believe that almighty God had a better plan than what Abram could understand ?
Think about this now - don't just rush to assumptions
Why did God command very specific methods of harvest ?
It is in the same strategy as God uses to fill His ways .
Why did God tell them to march around the walls at Jericho for 7 days if God could cause the wall to fall in mere minutes
There is a knowing of sorts when people can look at each other and know what the other is thinking , or the look in a persons eye that reveal they are angry "if looks could kill"
Why not truly study Gods Holy Feasts days and learn what God has taught about them rather than just making assumptions that bend scripture in the way you prefer ?

 

[BABerean2]

No, Jesus went to heaven to build mansions and He will be in heaven for all of the 70th week.

The 70th week followed the 69th week, since the angel Gabriel did not mention a "gap" in timeline.

Gospel to the Jew “first”:

Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.




The fact that the Gospel went first to the Jews is confirmed by the verses below.


Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


Rom_2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

.