You play chess?I was aware of that but that is between you and him. En passant so to speak I noticed while he was trying to prove one thing his proof text actually disproved one of his major arguing points.
Upvote
0
You play chess?I was aware of that but that is between you and him. En passant so to speak I noticed while he was trying to prove one thing his proof text actually disproved one of his major arguing points.
You know how your most important proof text, 1 Corinthians 15:22 seems to say that every last human will be saved? If you read it from a Universalist view it must also mean that every last human dies as well. But that isn't the case.May God bless your life.
24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
This verse does not support UR but contradicts it. If salvation was a done deal why did the writer say "perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth? Instead of "God will certainly grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth?"
You know how your most important proof text, 1 Corinthians 15:22 seems to say that every last human will be saved? If you read it from a Universalist view it must also mean that every last human dies as well. But that isn't the case.
Enoch and Elijah never died. Neither will those who are still living for the rapture.
So that verse can't mean that every last person dies. Instead it must be speaking about our race as a general whole.
The same thing must then be true of the second half that talks about all being made alive.
Yeah, so you have still miserably failed to actually put it on a timeline. It doesn't seem as though you've even attempted to prove that verse 5 happens at a specific time. Because it mentions "the lamb that was slain" it must be talking about something occurring after the lake of fire, and by this same verse we also know that every single human that ever lived must certainly be conscious and must still exist?
Does Revelation 5 say that everyone is saved? No.
Does it say that every creature on planet earth will praise God? Yes.
Does it say that birds and lizards will praise God? Pretty much.
If you can somehow twist your mind enough to use this verse to prove Universalism, you must also believe that God will "save" birds and lizards as well. Or else you must concede what it painfully obvious to everyone with a clear mind - that you don't have to be a saved Christian to praise God.
Uh... Chuck? None of those verses talk about life after the lake of fire.
So you completely reject the idea that the burden of proof is on you? Are you out of your mind?
How exactly do any of these verses "refute my theory"? Is it because of the words for eternal? Are you out of your mind? WE HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Eternal" has ZERO bearing on this discussion because ALL THREE Greek words can be used to describe FINITE and INFINITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you honesty not yet grasp this incredibly simple concept?
A long time ago. Never was very good at it. Can't think far enough ahead.You play chess?
Each time the "Lord's bond-servant" does what 2 Tim.2:24-25 says, it is possible "God may grant them repentance". The verse puts no time limit on when one may repent or the number of opportunities Love Omnipotent will grant people to repent, either in this life or postmortem.begin
Please show me one verse God or Jesus speaking which categorically states that even one person will be reconciled after death?Therefore it does not contradict UR (universalism) & is perfectly in harmony with it as taught elsewhere in the Scriptures. God has all eternity & unlimited love & opportunities for repentance & salvation for His created beings. It's mathematically impossible anyone could reject him forever.
What would the former pagan Christians, who had been taught about "hell," understand when Timothy read this letter to them? They did not have several Bibles on a laptop or tablet which they could whip out and look up all the verses which are usually thrown together to prove UR. In fact very few would even have a copy of this letter to refer to. Many of them could not even read. What would they understand when Timothy read "correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."2 Timothy 2:24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach,
patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
The flaw in your logic is that the phrase "the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night," describes the 4 beasts and the phrase "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." is what they were saying when John saw them. He didn't hang around heaven for ever and ever to hear them.Here is something for the ECT camp to consider, though they probably won't.
Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Forgot about this verse. This is an argument I have made in the past. Almost forgot about it until I was reminded when I was looking at the above verse just recently, in regards to another discussion not having to do with the topic of this thread. Notice that it says this---and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Should one take that to mean forever without ceasing? What about this part? and is to come. If that is meaning the 2nd coming, wouldn't it be rather silly to still be saying this same phrase forever, after the 2nd coming has already occurred?
Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
What about this passage? Does not one of the four beasts say, Come and see? But if one takes Revelation 4:8 to literally mean without ceasing, how was one of the beasts able to say Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come, while at the same time also saying---Come and see?
With the correct understanding of Rev 4:8 we can correctly understand Rev 14:11 to mean exactly what it says ":the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night." The phrase "no rest day and night" emphasizes the eternal nature of the for ever and ever torment.What's my point then?
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
When Revelation 4:8 indicates--and they rest not day and night--and that this apparently isn't meant to be understood as forever without ceasing, why should one assume, per Revelation 14:11---and they have no rest day nor night---that that literally has to mean forever without ceasing?
How exactly do any of these verses "refute my theory"? Is it because of the words for eternal? Are you out of your mind? WE HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Eternal" has ZERO bearing on this discussion because ALL THREE Greek words can be used to describe FINITE and INFINITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you honesty not yet grasp this incredibly simple concept?
.....I posted this before but to my knowledge it has not been addressed. The recidivism rate for american prisoners is 66+%, out of every 100 prisoners more than 66 will return to prison. The corrective aspect of punishment is not correcting And many of them blame others for their fate; judges, juries, lawyers, witnesses etc. And some even seek retribution from those they blame.
.....Knowing that, what happens to that 66+% when God punishes them in fire for some period of time, for their actions here on earth? Will they be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God or will they revert to type?
John 9:4
(4) As long as it is day, we [including Jesus] must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.
Please show me one verse God or Jesus speaking which categorically states that even one person will be reconciled after death?
....
What would the former pagan Christians, who had been taught about "hell," understand when Timothy read this letter to them? They did not have several Bibles on a laptop or tablet which they could whip out and look up all the verses which are usually thrown together to prove UR. In fact very few would even have a copy of this letter to refer to. Many of them could not even read. What would they understand when Timothy read "correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."
.....If UR is true should there not be verses in all the letters to the widely dispersed churches, Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika etc. telling all of them don't worry Love Omnipotent has no expiry date and will reach beyond the grave and save everyone no matter what.
.....As for the "Is God a monster" nonsense. Was God a monster when He destroyed all life on earth; men, women, young, old, children, infants except for Noah and his family? Was God a monster when He destroyed all the inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain; men, women, young, old, children, infants except for Lot and his family? Was God a monster when He commanded Israel to go into certain cities and kill all the inhabitants; men, women, young, old, children, infants?
Then how could he know it lasted for trillions of years?He didn't hang around heaven for ever and ever to hear them.
Take it from me then, an Annihilationist:No, almost everyone suffers and dies. Paul spoke of his sufferings as light & momentary. How do yours compare to his? How do light, momentary sufferings compare to endless sadistic tortures in hell? That's a long time. Even a trillion X trillion X trillion millenniums is nothing next to an eternity of sufferings. Unbelievers consider that insane & it has driven many Christians to the nut house where they lost their minds.
I don't see any verses stating that anyone will be reconciled after death. Not one. Sorry. How about a verse that says something like,
I am genuinely saddened by this.Where is there any - definitive - use of AIDIOS in Scripture that doesn't mean "eternal"?
Until you can find that, AIDIOS is the superior word (vs AION/IOS) to express endlessness.
Since AIDIOS is never used of punishment, endless punishment is a myth.
As they say in Manila, "Walang problema." The same way John got the vision and knew all the other otherwise unknowable things.Then how could he know it lasted for trillions of years?
Hmmm.
... Where is there a verse that uses aidiois to express a finite period of time? Well, there are only TWO instances in the entire bible, so it is virtually impossible to know for sure what it means, because it is already such a rare word and we don't have many examples of it being used to tell us what it means and what it doesn't mean.begin
I have posted this before. The definition of aidios from BAGD one of, if not, the most highly regarded Greek lexicons available. While this word only occurs twice in the NT there are other contemporary sources from which the meaning can be known. See e.g. blue highlights. "Aidios" means eternal.
An infinite period of time cannot be observed in a finite period of time.As they say in Manila, "Walang problema." The same way John got the vision and knew all the other otherwise unknowable things.
Once again since you did not answer this what would the former pagan Christians, who had been taught about "hell," understand when Timothy read 2 Tim.2:24-25 to them? They did not have several Bibles on a laptop or tablet which they could whip out and look up all the verses which are usually thrown together to prove UR. .....In fact very few would even have a copy of this letter to refer to. Many of them could not even read. What would they understand when Timothy read "correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."So no graveyard shift in those days? And...your point was...what?How about a few dozen:
Certainly not endless sadistic tortures. If they were of a sound mind.
Vague platitudes, which mere;ly show your biases, that don't really address anythingThere's a balance in the Scriptures. It includes the teaching of universalism & warnings about a just (not unjust sadistic) "hell".
A whole lot of folderol but how does this address my question about how most, 66%+, criminals today act when they have been punished for their crimes and how these same people will react when God punishes them for their sins. Will those who hate and reject God now be filled with warm fuzzies and love when God punishes them in fire for any period of time?No, almost everyone suffers and dies. Paul spoke of his sufferings as light & momentary. How do yours compare to his? How do light, momentary sufferings compare to endless sadistic tortures in hell? That's a long time. Even a trillion X trillion X trillion millenniums is nothing next to an eternity of sufferings. Unbelievers consider that insane & it has driven many Christians to the nut house where they lost their minds
John could not see God living and reigning for ever and ever but he said that God did live and reign for ever and ever. Those are some of the unknowable things God revealed to John.An infinite period of time cannot be observed in a finite period of time.
But a dragon and a lake of fire can be.