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Do all Fundamentalist believe in a Pre Trib Rapture

JLB777

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No.

Because you haven't said which coming.

Of course I did, and provided the scripture for you that refers to His coming.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


The coming by which we are gathered together unto Him, is the coming by which the antichrist is destroyed.



JLB
 
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DeaconDean

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Of course I did, and provided the scripture for you that refers to His coming.


Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


The coming by which we are gathered together unto Him, is the coming by which the antichrist is destroyed.



JLB

So, according to your view, the "Church" His "Bride", the five wise virgins, endure the tribulation period. Or God's wrath on an unrepentant, unsaved world?

The righteous suffer along with the unrighteous.

And it still does not answer which coming. Unless you view the Gospel accounts, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 1 & 2, Rev. 19 as one coming.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JLB777

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So, according to your view, the "Church" His "Bride", the five wise virgins, endure the tribulation period. Or God's wrath on an unrepentant, unsaved world?

The righteous suffer along with the unrighteous.

And it still does not answer which coming. Unless you view the Gospel accounts, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 1 & 2, Rev. 19 as one coming.

God Bless

Till all are one.


I believe what 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 says about His coming.

Our gathering together unto Him and the destruction of the antichrist occur at His coming, which is so plainly written in this passage.



Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



  • the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him

  • and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


I didn’t mention enduring the tribulation or suffering or five virgins or anything else, just read what the scripture says.

At His coming, we will be gathered together and the antichrist will be destroyed.



JLB
 
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Copperhead

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Yet, in all that, you have not really addressed the resurrected saints event that occurred at Yeshua's death. The scripture is pretty clear... they are called saints (Mat 27:52) which means they are righteous. And they were resurrected from the dead and seen by many.

I would contend that looking at the example of the harvest (Lev 23) that Yeshua pointed us to in many places in the Gospels is critical to put these things in perspective.

Yeshua was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits (per Lev 23, the day following the Sabbath following the Passover). He is our High Priest. The High Priest's job was to wave the first fruits of the harvest before the Lord (Lev 23). Those saints that were resurrected at His death were the first fruits of the harvest of the righteous. Yeshua told Mary not to touch Him (John 20:17) for He had not yet ascended to the Father. As High Priest, he needed to still deliver the first fruits resurrected saints to the Father and present them to Him. The High Priest is not to be handled or touched and remain ceremonially pure until this is accomplished.

The first fruits must be harvested and presented to the Lord BEFORE the main harvest can happen.

The rest of the harvest details lay out the future. There will be the main harvest (resurrection), which I believe will occur at or just before the Tribulation period of Daniel's 70th week and include both resurrected righteous and those righteous that are alive.

But there will still be the corners of the field left (Lev 23) that will be gleaned and harvested later. That will be those that come to faith in Yeshua during the Tribulation period. Just like gleaning of a harvest field does not occur all at once, their resurrection and removal will occur at various stages during the Tribulation period, not in one clump. These are the saints that come out of the Tribulation (Rev 7:14). Part of these events of the Tribulation period will be the resurrection and removal of the Two Witnesses (Rev 11:11). They will be part of the harvest gleanings.

We are taught that when Yeshua does indeed fully return to the earth, He will do so with His saints (Zech 14:4 and Jude 1:14) and there will be the separation of the living that remain on the earth at the end of the Great Tribulation. The separation of the sheep from the goats (Mat 25:32). The Sheep (righteous living) will go into the Messianic Kingdom to repopulate the earth and the Goats will be removed to await punishment.

I think we are remiss to not see how these things are laid out in scripture. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures daily to see it what Paul taught them was true. That meant that anything Paul taught them had to be confirmed in the Tanakh (OT). It might be to our advantage to follow that example.
 
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Hank77

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Yeshua was resurrected on the Feast of First Fruits (per Lev 23, the day following the Sabbath following the Passover). He is our High Priest. The High Priest's job was to wave the first fruits of the harvest before the Lord (Lev 23). Those saints that were resurrected at His death were the first fruits of the harvest of the righteous. Yeshua told Mary not to touch Him (John 20:17) for He had not yet ascended to the Father. As High Priest, he needed to still deliver the first fruits resurrected saints to the Father and present them to Him. The High Priest is not to be handled or touched and remain ceremonially pure until this is accomplished.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
 
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Copperhead

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Indeed. The key words in that passage are "that slept". That is past tense. A reference to the saints that were resurrected at the time of Yeshua's death.

And "become" in that passage, ginomai in Greek, has a broad meaning that can include fulfill, assembled, partake, ordained to be, etc. So it would support what I stated in my previous. It could rightly be translated... and assembled the first fruits of them that slept. He would have done that to present them to the Father.

Thanks for posting that.
 
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DeaconDean

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I wonder how JLB777, accounts for the "first" resurrection.

Scripture tells us also that Jesus and the resurrected saints were seen and heard, and this event lasted perhaps 40 days until Christ ascended to heaven.

What happened to these "resurrected saints"?

Maybe they just wondered back to their graves to await another "resurrection"?

How JBL777, wants to jump right to 2 Thess. 2, and skip right over 2 Thess. 1. And every other passage that speaks of Jesus" return.

To me personally, this is shoddy "eschatology".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Principles of Biblical Interpretation

"Here are the L-I-G-H-T-S to the Word of God:

Literal Interpretation, Illumination by the Holy Spirit, Grammatical Principles, Historical Context, Teaching Ministry, Scriptural Harmony.

Principles of biblical interpretation ought to be determined before developing one’s theology, but in practice the reverse is often true. Cultists in particular consistently read their deviant theologies into the biblical text instead of allowing the text to speak for itself. Faith teachers are also guilty of this practice, as I document in my book “Christianity in Crisis”.

In view of this growing problem, it would be productive to consider some of the primary principles of hermeneutics. Before you run off because of the formidable sound of this term, however, let me quickly point out that hermeneutics is simply a “fifty-cent” word that describes the science of biblical interpretation. The purpose of hermeneutics is to provide the student of Scripture with basic guidelines and rules for “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15). To help ensure that you will remember these principles, I’ve developed the acronym L-I-G-H-T-S. Just remember that the science of biblical interpretation “LIGHTS” your path as you walk through theWord.

Literal Interpretation

The L in LIGHTS will remind you of the literal principle of biblical interpretation. In simple terms, this means that we are to interpret the Word of God just as we interpret other forms of communication — in its most obvious and literal sense. Most often, the biblical authors employed literal statements to communicate their ideas (such as when the apostle Paul said of Jesus, “By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth” — Col. 1:16). And where the biblical writers express their ideas in literal statements, the interpreter must take those statements in a literal sense. In this way, the interpreter will grasp the intended meaning of the writer.

Of course, this is not to deny that Scripture employs figures of speech. Indeed, the biblical writers often used figurative language to communicate truth in a graphic way. And, in most cases, the meaning of such language is clear from the context. When Jesus says He is “the door” (John 10:7), for example, it is obvious He is not saying He is composed of wood and hinges. Rather, He is the “way” to salvation.

Illumination by the Holy Spirit

The I in LIGHTS will remind you of the illumination of Scripture that can only come from the Spirit of God. First Corinthians 2:12 says: “We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.” Because the author of Scripture — the Holy Spirit (2 Pet. 1:21). — resides within the child of God (1 Cor. 3:16), he or she is in a position to receive God’s illumination (1 Cor. 2:9-11). And, indeed, the Spirit of truth not only provides insights that permeate the mind, but also provides illumination that can penetrate the heart.

Grammatical Principles

The G in LIGHTS will remind you that Scripture is to be interpreted in accordance with typical rules of grammar — including syntax and style. For this reason, it is important for the student of Scripture to have a basic understanding of grammatical principles. It is also helpful to have a basic grasp of the Greek and Hebrew languages. If you do not know Greek or Hebrew, however, don’t panic. Today there are a host of eminently usable tools to aid you in gaining insights from the original languages of Scripture. Besides commentaries, there are “interlinear” translations that provide the Hebrew and Greek text of the Bible in parallel with the English text. As well, Strong’s concordance has a number-coding system by which you can look up the Greek or Hebrew word (along with a full definition) behind each word in the English Bible. Moreover, there are dictionaries of Old and New Testament words that are keyed to Strong’s concordance. Tools such as these make it easy for the layperson to obtain insights on the original Hebrew or Greek of the Bible without being fluent in these languages.

Historical Context

The H in LIGHTS will remind you that the Christian faith is historical and evidential (Luke 1:1-4). The biblical text is best understood when one is familiar with the customs, culture, and historical context of biblical times. Thankfully, there are a host of excellent Bible handbooks and commentaries to aid us in the process of understanding the people and places of the Bible.

Teaching Ministry

The T in LIGHTS will remind you that even though the illumination of Scripture ultimately comes through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, God has also provided the church with uniquely gifted human teachers (Eph. 4:11). Therefore, as we seek to rightly interpret God’s Word (2 Tim. 2:15), we would do well to consult those whom God has uniquely gifted as teachers in the church (cf. Tit. 2:1-15). Of course, following the example of the Bereans (Acts 17:11), we should always make sure that what human teachers say is in line with Scripture (cf. 1 Thess. 5:21).

Scriptural Harmony

The S in LIGHTS will remind you of the principle of Scriptural harmony. Individual passages of Scripture must always be in harmony with Scripture as a whole. The biblical interpreter must keep in mind that all of Scripture — though communicated through various human instruments — has a single Author (God). And, of course, God does not contradict Himself.

Studying the Bible is the noblest of all pursuits, and rightly understanding it, the highest of all goals. The six principles listed above can help you attain this goal. And as the science of biblical interpretation continually LIGHTS your path through Scripture, you will find yourself growing in your understanding of Him who is the Light of the world — Jesus Christ (John 8:12)."

Source

Other than the Gospels, there are 44 verses that address the "Second Coming", and it seems to me that one wants to base their entire "eschatological" view on just a few verses.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Copperhead

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I would include the application of Midrash pertaining to interpretation of prophecy. That is is Jewish principle of interpretation that prophecy is pattern, not only prediction. Even Paul used the Midrash principle in some of his letters. Basically, that there are patterns in scripture that illuminate prophecy.

For instance, Absalom and David. Absalom (Av Shalom = Father of Peace) illegally took over the kingdom from his father David. David and those loyal to him spent 7 years in Hebron (Hevron = Heaven) until the defeat of Absalom. Absalom is a picture of the false messiah. The main characteristic of evil is pride. Absalom's pride was his long flowing hair. Absalom was defeated when his hair (pride) was caught in the branch (Messiah is the branch of David) and is killed. After that, David comes from Hebron and reestablishes his rule at Jerusalem.

Another picture of Messiah and the events of the last days. The story of Athaliah and Joash is another picture of how these things will play out. 2Kings 11. Read that one, put Messiah in it, and see how it illuminates the end times events. The 7 years are involved here too.

Even the elements of the flood during Noah's time show the same prophetic pattern. Particularly how Noah and his family were sealed by the Lord inside the ark 7 days prior to the destruction of life on the earth. When taken with Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. The 70th week being the time of the false messiah on the earth. So the story of Noah very well could be a Midrash of how the righteous will be sealed for 7 years in heaven before the final destruction of evil on the earth.

Isaiah 28:10 (KJV) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little:
 
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DeaconDean

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The 7 years are involved here too.

Perhaps its me, but as you mention, the above member seems to me to discount the 7 years.

:scratch:

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Ok, I'll bite.... which above member? Sorry if I am confused. It is early morning for me.

Sorry, in fairness, I've been up already for some 5 hours. At work for the last 3.

JBL777

So far, his only basis for support, has been passages from 2 Thess. 2.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JLB777

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Yet, in all that, you have not really addressed the resurrected saints event that occurred at Yeshua's death. The scripture is pretty clear... they are called saints (Mat 27:52) which means they are righteous. And they were resurrected from the dead and seen by many

Context dictates what is intended for us to understand, especially when the subject encompasses words that have a similar meaning.

In these two verses the same Greek word is used in both cases, neither of which is the word resurrection, as in the the resurrection of the dead in Christ, where we will receive our immortal bodies that will not die anyone, at His coming.



50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 27:51-53



5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. Matthew 11:5


At His coming, our (those who are Christ’s) bodies will be transformed from mortal to immortal bodies, on the last Day.

Paul said it this way in 2 Corinthians -


For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
2 Corinthians 5:1-4


  • not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

and again


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44


  • The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
  • It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.


Jesus said it this way -


35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


  • nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


and again


39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:39-40


  • and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


The word used for the resurrection that refers to our being clothed with a spiritual body that will not die anymore, on the last Day, at His coming, is G386 anastasis or it’s derivative anastemi G450.


A look at Lazarus will be the next post,as this one is getting to long.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Sorry, in fairness, I've been up already for some 5 hours. At work for the last 3.

JBL777

So far, his only basis for support, has been passages from 2 Thess. 2.

God Bless

Till all are one.


I plainly quoted 1 Thessalonians as well as 2 Thessalonians-


The Church will be gathered together to Him in clouds, the resurrection and rapture, at His Coming.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



There are 3 scriptural facts that concern the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which once these 3 things are known, there is no more confusion about this subject.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
  • And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up togetherwith them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.


  • Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not comeunless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of Hiscoming.


The 3 major things that occur at His coming:

  1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
  2. The Rapture.
  3. The destruction of the antichrist.

Once each person comes to understand these three major truths that occur at His coming, there will be no more confusion about this doctrine.



JLB
 
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DeaconDean

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3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.


  • Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not comeunless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of Hiscoming.

Except in Mt. 24:30-31 does not agree with you assumption.

It says nothing, NOTHING about the antichrist being destroyed.

Neither does Lk. 21:27-28.

Scripture must harmonize.

Besides that, in your zeal, this thread for all intents and purposes, was "dead".

That is, until you "resurrected" it.

The last post before you came here, was 2/20/18.

You resurrected this thread on 3/10/18.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JLB777

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Except in Mt. 24:30-31 does not agree with you assumption.

It says nothing, NOTHING about the antichrist being destroyed.

Neither does Lk. 21:27-28.

Scripture must harmonize.

Besides that, in your zeal, this thread for all intents and purposes, was "dead".


I don't really know what point you are trying to make.

You don't seem to have a point other than saying the Antichrist won't be destroyed at His coming.

  • And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


I quoted two scriptures from 1 and 2 Thessalonians, that teach us the resurrection and rapture are one event that happens at His coming.

In addition, the antichrist is destroyed at His coming.


The three points I made from these scriptures, about His coming are:

  1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
  2. The Rapture.
  3. The destruction of the antichrist.

The Church will be gathered together to Him in clouds, the resurrection and rapture, at His Coming.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



  • There are 3 scriptural facts that concern the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which once these 3 things are known, there is no more confusion about this subject.



1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
  • And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up togetherwith them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.


  • Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not comeunless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of Hiscoming.


The 3 major things that occur at His coming:

  1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
  2. The Rapture.
  3. The destruction of the antichrist.




JLB
 
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DeaconDean

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I don't really know what point you are trying to make.

You don't seem to have a point other than saying the Antichrist won't be destroyed at His coming.

  • And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


I quoted two scriptures from 1 and 2 Thessalonians, that teach us the resurrection and rapture are one event that happens at His coming.

In addition, the antichrist is destroyed at His coming.


The three points I made from these scriptures, about His coming are:

  1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
  2. The Rapture.
  3. The destruction of the antichrist.

The Church will be gathered together to Him in clouds, the resurrection and rapture, at His Coming.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18



  • There are 3 scriptural facts that concern the coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture, in which once these 3 things are known, there is no more confusion about this subject.



1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
  • And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up togetherwith them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.


  • Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not comeunless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of Hiscoming.


The 3 major things that occur at His coming:

  1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
  2. The Rapture.
  3. The destruction of the antichrist.




JLB

Except that you forget what Paul also said:

"For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God." -Acts 20:27 (KJV)

Again, so far, you have taken two passages of scripture:

I quoted two scriptures from 1 and 2 Thessalonians,

And built a whole "doctrine" around it.

You said:

"3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming."

Fact, the account of His return as recorded in the Gospels, does not harmonize with you.

In fact, you want to skip a certain amount of time, as recorded in scripture, and jump right to the end of the tribulation period.

Fact is, your account, your doctrine does not match with the Gospel accounts, the account in Acts, Psa. 47:5, 1 Cor. 15:51-54, 1 Thess. 4:13-18, 2 Thess. 1:7-8, 2 Thess. 2:1-4, or Rev. 19:11-21!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JLB777

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Except that you forget what Paul also said:

"For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God." -Acts 20:27 (KJV)

Again, so far, you have taken two passages of scripture:


I didn't forget anything.

I gave the passages that teach us about three main things that happen at His coming.


First - The resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Second, after that - The Rapture.

Third, when all are with the Lord in the air - The destruction of the false christ; antichrist



1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
  • And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up togetherwith them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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Except that you forget what Paul also said:

"For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God." -Acts 20:27 (KJV)

Again, so far, you have taken two passages of scripture:


I didn't forget anything.

I gave the passages that teach us about three main things that happen at His coming.


First - The resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Second, after that - The Rapture.

Third, when all are with the Lord in the air - The destruction of the false christ; antichrist



1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
  • And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up togetherwith them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.



JLB
 
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