Muslim student 'kicked off flight for speaking Arabic' sues Southwest Airlines

[SummerMadness]

We've seen this type of behavior before...

'Trump might deport you': Woman launches racist tirade at Iranian-born US citizen on the train, calling her a 'Middle Eastern terrorist' in shocking viral video

A US citizen was verbally attacked by a woman who called her a 'Middle Eastern terrorist' and said, 'I think you are an ugly, mean, evil little pig who might get deported and I pray that you do.'

Ivet Lolham had been speaking on the phone in Assyrian when she was riding the Bay Area Rapid Transit train on her way home in California.

 

[Belk]

No guilt...

It's just appearing to look less and less like Islamaphobia or racism. Just more typical invasiveness of what airlines have become.

...I feel invaded too when TSA x-rays my genetals. But I can't use it as a tool to profit from. We have to expect this at airports now.

According to what info?

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I think you mean UNsafe. And since when is a language "racial?"

Since slavery, the Brown Scare, 9/11... at least every generation there is a "racial" identity attached to a language for the purposes of separating who gets their allotment of fair treatment and freedom in the State.

 

[Halbhh]

Eh...Coptic people are largely used to it, but it is a bit sad to see people who have given up everything back home to come here be so bitterly disappointed that nobody wants to listen to them, and instead places them in the same boat as the very people and religion that is responsible for their ill-treatment in the first place.



Yes, of course.



I don't know...as fair as that is, I would think it unfair to assume that the young man in the story is not friendly. I know you aren't implying that, but the point is that if that's the standard for whether or not people have reason to fear you, then couldn't it be assumed that there are some friendly Arabic-speakers out there? I know plenty. Plus, I would think it would be pretty tiring to have to be overly friendly as you go throughout your day so as to avoid being turned into the NSA or whoever for scaring people by just existing.

]quote]By the way, welcome to America, if you have come here. I'm glad you are here. I really mean that. Just the other day I was delighted by this post --
Coptic Christian congregation finds new home after being hosted by Catholic parish

Oh, no. I'm already from America. But thank you. That is a nice gesture. [/QUOTE]

I bet we are on the same page a lot, agreeing on much even, just from what you've written in a couple of posts. I thought this open question (it's an open question for me) was very interesting all by itself: "I would think it would be pretty tiring to have to be overly friendly as you go throughout your day so as to avoid being turned into the NSA or whoever for scaring people by just existing." I mean the part about being friendly all day long to strangers (even if just as an effort to help them). Of course, that's not all there is to it, because the prejudice and the suspicion are indeed going to be tiring. Those are tiring.

But, the other part of that -- is making an effort to be friendly to a lot of strangers each day itself tiring?

Just on that one aspect, sans prejudices. I'm thinking in recent years I find that this effort is actually less tiring for me (this being friendly to total strangers so often during a day) than I expected it to be. So, this would help some (or many) of those strangers, of course, to get past their fear. And then when one encouters true prejudice (which is more than a mere fear of a stranger), then one needs....to rely on aid from above, I'd think. The aid from above that helps us in difficult conditions.

 

[Dave-W]

Since slavery, the Brown Scare, 9/11... at least every generation there is a "racial" identity attached to a language for the purposes of separating who gets their allotment of fair treatment and freedom in the State.

There may be an identity, but it is NOT racial.

To tell the truth, I would be MORE scared of a blonde blue eyed guy looking like he just came from Norway speaking Arabic.

 

[Halbhh]

What's inappropriate is telling someone it is inappropriate to speak their native language. We have that right.

To avoid tangling together 2 distinct and unalike issues: evil prejudices on the one hand, and on the other general fear -- I wrote the post #75 above.

See? In the dark alley, any of us meets that fear which is not even a prejudice. So, there are 2 things going on. One: prejudice. Two: fear. Two distinct problems.

First, recognizing the real wrongs of prejudice, the harms, and our need to correct them, that we already agree on that, and I'm affirming to you that I agree on that....

Still, we also additionally exist in a broken world of people that fear others. I've often encountered people fearing me without any apparent cause at all, merely because I'm a stranger and male.

So...if I exercised all my rights all the time to the maximum extent, refusing to allow for any fear in others., I'd soon be in a literal war with someone, with actual fighting.

I don't claim to have all the perfect answers. (Rather, Christ does. I have to count on Him. So, I have to continue to seek to be guided.)

Instead of totally excercising my rights to the fullest extent at all times, I have to instead do as Paul wrote in the epistels. I have to curtail my own perfectly ok freedom at times in certain situations, for the sake of others, even though I'm in the right. Even then. It's a sacrifice.

Christ told us though that in the end all will be made right!

 

[Landon Caeli]

Perhaps. I was banned from there so long ago, I can't remember, to be honest. But if so, then it's nice to see you again.

Me too.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

There may be an identity, but it is NOT racial.

To tell the truth, I would be MORE scared of a blonde blue eyed guy looking like he just came from Norway speaking Arabic.

That is you; clearly that is not the case for the President, or the majority of the States. And, it has been the case in the West for centuries. Language was used to identify ethnicity, which was used as a barometer for race - which was used to distinguish human hierarchy from social to spiritual levels. It is part of the deep anthropological framework of most imperialist nations.

You may make the distinction between identity, ethnicity, race, and other anthropological elements that describe a population (because, they are distinct.) However, this is not the case for the average person, or above average person. And, even more who recognize it choose to ignore the distinctions for the purposes of maintaining their own piece of moral and ethical security.

 

[dzheremi]

I bet we are on the same page a lot, agreeing on much even, just from what you've written in a couple of posts. I thought this open question (it's an open question for me) was very interesting all by itself: "I would think it would be pretty tiring to have to be overly friendly as you go throughout your day so as to avoid being turned into the NSA or whoever for scaring people by just existing." I mean the part about being friendly all day long to strangers (even if just as an effort to help them). Of course, that's not all there is to it, because the prejudice and the suspicion are indeed going to be tiring. Those are tiring.

But, the other part of that -- is making an effort to be friendly to a lot of strangers each day itself tiring?

Just on that one aspect, sans prejudices.

But that's the thing, though: you recognize that there is more to it than that, and that it is intimately tied to people's prejudices, so I don't think you can specify "sans prejudices", as though we can separate the prejudices that motivate people to feel as though they have to be nice all the time from their being nice.

Or, to put it another way, I'm sure that there are plenty of people (Muslim, non-Muslim, Arab, non-Arab, etc.) who are genuinely nice to everyone as they go through their daily lives, but probably even those people would be worn down by having to have to be nice in a context where not doing so (or not being perceived as doing so) would make them immediately suspicious to everyone else who doesn't know them, based on what language they speak, what religion they are assumed to practice, etc.

The difference then is not even in whether or not they themselves are nice, but in other people's reaction to them over things that they cannot control. Just like the Assyrian woman in the story linked by SummerMadness, who cannot control the fact that someone sees her, hears her speak, and assumes she is an Islamic terrorist. What can anyone do about that, really? When something as simple as speaking your own language makes people react to you in that way, can it really be said that the Assyrian woman has done something wrong by speaking her language in an environment where that made another person so uncomfortable that they lashed out at her?

I'm thinking in recent years I find that this effort is actually less tiring for me (this being friendly to total strangers so often during a day) than I expected it to be.

Well, sure, but are you doing so in a context where not doing so would make you a "terrorist" in the eyes of people around you, when you're just going about your everyday life?

So, this would help some (or many) of those strangers, of course, to get past their fear. And then when one encouters true prejudice (which is more than a mere fear of a stranger), then one needs....to rely on aid from above, I'd think. The aid from above that helps us in difficult conditions.

Aid from above, sure, but also we have laws that guarantee people their right to speak their own language, or to ride a bus without being a target of hatred for where you are from, or to be safe in their own homes (as was violated in the Albuquerque home invasion and beating case I posted some pages ago that also occurred to a Middle Eastern Christian immigrant).

 

[Landon Caeli]

According to what info?

Mostly the FBI's involvement, a "trustworthy" department of the U.S. government, who played a major role in this.

 

[Landon Caeli]

But that's the thing, though: you recognize that there is more to it than that, and that it is intimately tied to people's prejudices, so I don't think you can specify "sans prejudices", as though we can separate the prejudices that motivate people to feel as though they have to be nice all the time from their being nice.

Or, to put it another way, I'm sure that there are plenty of people (Muslim, non-Muslim, Arab, non-Arab, etc.) who are genuinely nice to everyone as they go through their daily lives, but probably even those people would be worn down by having to have to be nice in a context where not doing so (or not being perceived as doing so) would make them immediately suspicious to everyone else who doesn't know them, based on what language they speak, what religion they are assumed to practice, etc.

The difference then is not even in whether or not they themselves are nice, but in other people's reaction to them over things that they cannot control. Just like the Assyrian woman in the story linked by SummerMadness, who cannot control the fact that someone sees her, hears her speak, and assumes she is an Islamic terrorist. What can anyone do about that, really? When something as simple as speaking your own language makes people react to you in that way, can it really be said that the Assyrian woman has done something wrong by speaking her language in an environment where that made another person so uncomfortable that they lashed out at her?



Well, sure, but are you doing so in a context where not doing so would make you a "terrorist" in the eyes of people around you, when you're just going about your everyday life?



Aid from above, sure, but also we have laws that guarantee people their right to speak their own language, or to ride a bus without being a target of hatred for where you are from, or to be safe in their own homes (as was violated in the Albuquerque home invasion and beating case I posted some pages ago that also occurred to a Middle Eastern Christian immigrant).

Is the FBI prejudiced for taking part in this investigation?

 

[Landon Caeli]

...I guess this Muslim guy feels the same way Trump does... Huh...

 

[Belk]

Mostly the FBI's involvement, a "trustworthy" department of the U.S. government, who played a major role in this case.

I fail to see how the FBI getting involved indicates that this was not a case of "Islamophobia".

 

[Halbhh]

But that's the thing, though: you recognize that there is more to it than that, and that it is intimately tied to people's prejudices, so I don't think you can specify "sans prejudices", as though we can separate the prejudices that motivate people to feel as though they have to be nice all the time from their being nice.

Or, to put it another way, I'm sure that there are plenty of people (Muslim, non-Muslim, Arab, non-Arab, etc.) who are genuinely nice to everyone as they go through their daily lives, but probably even those people would be worn down by having to have to be nice in a context where not doing so (or not being perceived as doing so) would make them immediately suspicious to everyone else who doesn't know them, based on what language they speak, what religion they are assumed to practice, etc.

The difference then is not even in whether or not they themselves are nice, but in other people's reaction to them over things that they cannot control. Just like the Assyrian woman in the story linked by SummerMadness, who cannot control the fact that someone sees her, hears her speak, and assumes she is an Islamic terrorist. What can anyone do about that, really? When something as simple as speaking your own language makes people react to you in that way, can it really be said that the Assyrian woman has done something wrong by speaking her language in an environment where that made another person so uncomfortable that they lashed out at her?



Well, sure, but are you doing so in a context where not doing so would make you a "terrorist" in the eyes of people around you, when you're just going about your everyday life?



Aid from above, sure, but also we have laws that guarantee people their right to speak their own language, or to ride a bus without being a target of hatred for where you are from, or to be safe in their own homes (as was violated in the Albuquerque home invasion and beating case I posted some pages ago that also occurred to a Middle Eastern Christian immigrant).

We generally agree. Even every point you make. But the additional situation is like in post #86 above, which Paul dealt with. That is, Paul was dealing with a variety of prejudices, and wrote various instances of a general principle. I'm not saying prejudices are ok, but instead that we all have to do....difficult things we could not do without His aid. I mean that I really have sympathy, but also there is a solution we are given. I don't claim this is all easy. In fact, it's very hard, but it does get eaiser with His aid, becomes possible instead of impossible. I'm only reminding here, or trying to encourage. Of course we should also continue to work to --


"Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow." (Isaiah chapter 1)

Or more generally --

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew ch 7)

Amen.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I fail to see how the FBI getting involved indicates that this was not a case of "Islamophobia".

Shouldn't federal agents have been able to identify that right off the bat? Instead, they chose to investigate.

...Do you think federal FBI agents suffer from "Islamaphobia"?

 

[dzheremi]

Is the FBI prejudiced for taking part in this investigation?

That wasn't the question I was replying to. We're talking about prejudice from people in day to day life, not the involvement of the FBI in an investigation.

I think the FBI probably went forward with what they thought was going on based on what they had been given by the staff of the airline concerning passenger complaints. That doesn't make those complaints in themselves justified or valid, though. They don't seem to be based on what the man in question was actually saying, but instead a vague, general sense of fear that someone speaking Arabic on an airplane must be up to no good -- and that is prejudice, yes.

 

[Belk]

Shouldn't federal agents have been able to identify that right off the bat? Instead, they chose to investigate.

...Do you think federal FBI agents suffer from "Islamaphobia"?

How would they determine if it was a valid threat or not without investigating?

 

[Landon Caeli]

How would they determine if it was a valid threat or not without investigating?

Because if he was merely speaking Arabic, and that's all, then being a responsible agency, they should have not searched him and gone through extensive questioning. Right?

...But they did.

 

[Halbhh]

How would they determine if it was a valid threat or not without investigating?

Right. People try, fail, and try again, hopefully. In everyday real life of humans on Earth, we mistunderstand each other.

That's the normal reality, of course!

Therefore, we can only have real peace, instead of only an armistice (or just an armed camp) solely if we (most all of us) are doing this principle, or these principles, most of the time:

"...forgive your brother/sister from your heart."

"...forgive...seventy times seven."

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them to do you"

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

-- Christ Jesus, the Teacher, the Redeemer, the Savior.

Anything else is just a temporary pause on the way to more war.

.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I think the FBI probably went forward with what they thought was going on based on what they had been given by the staff of the airline concerning passenger complaints. That doesn't make those complaints in themselves justified or valid, though. They don't seem to be based on what the man in question was actually saying, but instead a vague, general sense of fear that someone speaking Arabic on an airplane must be up to no good -- and that is prejudice, yes.

I'm not so sure we can divide the charges from the investigation so easily. Surely the FBI heard the charges... If it were merely the Islamic language being spoken that, as the charge, caused them to investigate, then how can we say the FBI is innocent of Islamaphobia?

On the other hand, if someone thought they heard someone talking aboit the martyrs in Arabic, then wouldn't that be a good reason to investigate, just to make sure?