7th Trumpet Rapture?

[ewq1938]

I see no indication that the order of Revelations not being in chronological order. As a matter of fact seals at the beginning, trumpets in the middle and vials at the end fits the narrative perfectly.

Except the 6th seal shows Christ returning, and so does Rev 11 and Rev 19 and a good argument that it is also found in Rev 14. How many second comings are there?

OR, Rev is not in Chronological order. Some is, most isn't. In the latter part of Rev 7 it jumps clear into the eternity, then sudden;y back to the last seal in the next chapter, and then the eternity again in Rev 21-22. How is that chronological?

 

[BABerean2]

What are your thoughts on the bowls of God's wrath?

Forget everything that you have been taught by men in the past and go with what the text says.

The seals book is a summary of the entire Book of Revelation.
Christ removes the seals one at a time and then John is told "Come and see."
The Second Coming is found at the end of chapter 6 with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.

The bowls of wrath are concurrent with the word wrath in Revelation 11:18, and the end of chapter 6, and the "harvest" of chapter 14, etc.

.

 

[mark kennedy]

Except the 6th seal shows Christ returning, and so does Rev 11 and Rev 19 and a good argument that it is also found in Rev 14. How many second comings are there?

The sixth seal isn't the return of Christ, it's the beginning of the wrath of the Lamb, not the return of Christ as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah:

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Rev. 6:13-16)
​

There are the four horsemen, world conqueror, world war, famine and plague. In the wake of this bloody infamous rampage the martyrs beneath the alter complain, how long before you avenge our blood. This is the tribulation of the saint during the rise of the Antichrist and the sixth seal is wrath on their tormentors, it's just the beginning. They know who is doing this to them and hide themselves, the martyrs (witnesses) they murdered in mass has testified to them that God will avenge their deaths.

It will be years before the trumpets are sounded, meanwhile they emerge from their underground shelters to continue their increasingly infamous rampage. With the sounding of the last three trumpets the kingdoms of earth become the kingdom of God and Christ, even though the throne of the beast won't be struck until the fifth vial of wrath.

OR, Rev is not in Chronological order. Some is, most isn't. In the latter part of Rev 7 it jumps clear into the eternity, then sudden;y back to the last seal in the next chapter, and then the eternity again in Rev 21-22. How is that chronological?

When the fifth seal is open, the martyrs are given white robes, they appear in heaven in the next chapter praising God before the Lamb. The four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, as well as the 144,000 from Israel are not in heaven. There is no indication of the rapture only that the redeemed are before the Lamb, absent from the body but present with the Lord. The 21st chapter describes the new heavens and the new earth, and the new Jerusalem. Clearly the 21st and 22nd chapters are focused on the eternal state of the saints. This is after the thousand year reign of Christ:

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:5-6)
​

There is a clear narrative here, the chronological order can be readily discerned from a straight forward of the text taken in context.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

Forget everything that you have been taught by men in the past and go with what the text says.

The seals book is a summary of the entire Book of Revelation.
Christ removes the seals one at a time and then John is told "Come and see."
The Second Coming is found at the end of chapter 6 with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.

The bowls of wrath are concurrent with the word wrath in Revelation 11:18, and the end of chapter 6, and the "harvest" of chapter 14, etc.

.

But they are not cowering in caves and dens of the rocks at the return of Christ. They are spoiling for a fight, dripping in demonic possession and believing the impossible, that they can win this fight.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”​

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.(Rev. 19:17-19)
​

At the end of the seals they are hiding, by the end of the tribulation they are convinced they can win.

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
“Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.” (Psalm 2:1-3)
​

The hardening of their hearts has been over 7 years and they have endured even the vials of wrath. That's why the Euphrates is dried up, so the kings of the east can gather together with the armies of the Antichrist for the final battle that takes place in the valley of Armageddon:

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev. 16:12-16)
​

The angels pour out the vials of wrath Rev. ch. 15, Babylon and the Beast endure the vials of wrath and are still standing. In the 18th chapter is the 'wine of the wrath of Babylon' The Beast and the false prophet are not destroyed until the battle of Armageddon.

The narrative is pretty straight forward, I've always found the Dispensational approach to be untenable as an exposition.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[BABerean2]

But they are not cowering in caves and dens of the rocks at the return of Christ. They are spoiling for a fight, dripping in demonic possession and believing the impossible, that they can win this fight.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”​

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.(Rev. 19:17-19)
​

At the end of the seals they are hiding, by the end of the tribulation they are convinced they can win.

Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
“Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.” (Psalm 2:1-3)
​

The hardening of their hearts has been over 7 years and they have endured even the vials of wrath. That's why the Euphrates is dried up, so the kings of the east can gather together with the armies of the Antichrist for the final battle that takes place in the valley of Armageddon:

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev. 16:12-16)
​

The angels pour out the vials of wrath Rev. ch. 15, Babylon and the Beast endure the vials of wrath and are still standing. In the 18th chapter is the 'wine of the wrath of Babylon' The Beast and the false prophet are not destroyed until the battle of Armageddon.

The narrative is pretty straight forward, I've always found the Dispensational approach to be untenable as an exposition.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;(The moon does not give its normal light during a blood moon.)
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Do you understand the probability of this many elements being in common, if these passages were not related?

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[wilco]

Interesting take! And logical!

However, 1 Thess. 4:16-17 does not mention Jesus setting foot upon the earth (which normally I think of as the second coming),

but yes, I see this scripture as pointing directly to our rapture!

The reason 1 Thessalonians 4 does not mention Jesus setting foot on earth because Satan will be allowed to impersonate Jesus' second coming in which Satan will touch the earth preforming signs and wonders to fool if possible the elect.

 

[BABerean2]

The Church will be raptured pre trib at the trump of God on Pentecost the early summer harvest feast.

The statement above sounds like something right out of the Scofield Reference Bible...

However, the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine and its pretrib removal of the Church.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

 

[ewq1938]

The sixth seal isn't the return of Christ, it's the beginning of the wrath of the Lamb, not the return of Christ as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah

Those are the same things. The 6th seal shows the return of Christ from the view of the unsaved.

 

[Gottservant]

I think what you mean is that the raptured are "heard" at the seventh trumpet.

Those that are not raptured are not heard.

That makes a good point actually.

 

[ewq1938]

I think what you mean is that the raptured are "heard" at the seventh trumpet.

Those that are not raptured are not heard.

That makes a good point actually.

What do you mean by being heard?

 

[mark kennedy]

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;(The moon does not give its normal light during a blood moon.)
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Do you understand the probability of this many elements being in common, if these passages were not related?

.

They have some things in common but the vials of wrath are far more devastating. They are in darkness after the fifth vial, but after being tormented by heat of the sun through the first four.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:29-31)
​

A third of the sun, moon and stars struck as a result of the fourth trumpet, immediately after the tribulation of the days following the abomination that causes desolation the heavens are struck. Then the angels gather his elect from the four winds, the same angels that prepare the Euphrates for the crossing of the kings of the east. It fits the chronology of Revelations seamlessly.

 

[mark kennedy]

Those are the same things. The 6th seal shows the return of Christ from the view of the unsaved.

It doesn't say Christ returns there, it says they cry out, hide us from the wrath of the Lamb. When he does return they won't be cowering in caves, they will be standing together in the valley of Armageddon.

 

[ewq1938]

It doesn't say Christ returns there, it says they cry out, hide us from the wrath of the Lamb. When he does return they won't be cowering in caves, they will be standing together in the valley of Armageddon.

Some will attempt to face Christ and his army, others will hide. The 6th seal shows a part of the 2nd coming event. The wrath of the Lamb and God is all the same day, the second coming.

 

[mark kennedy]

Some will attempt to face Christ and his army, others will hide. The 6th seal shows a part of the 2nd coming event. The wrath of the Lamb and God is all the same day, the second coming.

These are two different events, both include all. As the martyrs beneath the alter testified they would be quoting this verse. They will tell them this was prophesied and you will soon face the wrath of the Lamb, if the church was raptured who are these people?:

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! (Rev. 6:15-16)

They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. (Rev. 16:14-16)

Notice it his the kings of the earth and there is no everyone else. They have been decapitating anyone who refuses to join them for three and a half years.

At Armageddon they are gathering for a battle, after the sixth seal the rulers, and everyone else are below ground. That's from the expressed meaning of the text, not reading anything in.​

 

[Choose Wisely]

The statement above sounds like something right out of the Scofield Reference Bible...

However, the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine and its pretrib removal of the Church.
.

If it sounds like its out of the Scofield reference Bible it just means Scofield was on the right track. I doubt that is the case...........however certainly possible. I just read what the Bible says without making stuff up like some of you seem to do.

As far as your new covenant nonsense..........it's means nothing until Israel accepts Jesus as Messiah. Has that happened . When are you going to admit you are selling a pile of ...........

 

[BABerean2]

As far as your new covenant nonsense..........it's means nothing until Israel accepts Jesus as Messiah. Has that happened . When are you going to admit you are selling a pile of ...........

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


Gal 6:15 Certainly, it doesn't matter whether a person is circumcised or not. Rather, what matters is being a new creation.
Gal 6:16 Peace and mercy will come to rest on all those who conform to this principle. They are the Israel of God.


as 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

...............................................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


The New Covenant: Bob George

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[jerry kelso]

We find the 7th trumpet is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever".

In verse 18 we find "the time of the judgment of the dead". See John 5:27-30.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

.

.

baberaean2,

Revelation 11:15 is in the days of the 7th angel when the mystery of God is finished Revelation 10:7.
This is in the middle of the tribulation and could not be the actual time of the second coming. Why? The timing is different and the second coming was not a mystery. It was a major Old Testament doctrine.
The rapture was a mystery even though it is not about the rapture. Why? Wrong timing and the kingdoms of the world becoming Christ doesn’t happen till Armageddon at the second coming.
Also, the seals, trumpets, and the vials happen in succession.
The mystery of God is the casting out of Satan from Heaven ending his access to Heaven as the accuser of the brethren Revelation 12:9-11. Jerry kelso

 

[mark kennedy]

.

baberaean2,

Revelation 11:15 is in the days of the 7th angel when the mystery of God is finished Revelation 10:7.
This is in the middle of the tribulation and could not be the actual time of the second coming. Why? The timing is different and the second coming was not a mystery. It was a major Old Testament doctrine.
The rapture was a mystery even though it is not about the rapture. Why? Wrong timing and the kingdoms of the world becoming Christ doesn’t happen till Armageddon at the second coming.
Also, the seals, trumpets, and the vials happen in succession.
The mystery of God is the casting out of Satan from Heaven ending his access to Heaven as the accuser of the brethren Revelation 12:9-11. Jerry kelso

I agree except for the part of the kingdoms of the earth do not become the kingdom of God until Armageddon. It's all God's after the trumpets, he just doesn't take possession for a few years because there a wedding feast going on in heaven. As God prepares to take possession the angels sing redemption's love song.

And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. They were holding harps from God, and they sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

“Great and wonderful are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the nations!
Who will not fear You, O Lord, and give glory to Your name?
For You alone are holy.
All nations will come and worship before You,
for Your righteous deeds, have been revealed.” (Rev. 15:2-4)
​

Grace and peace,
Mark

​

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm