7th Trumpet Rapture?

Status
Not open for further replies.

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Site Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,418
6,797
✟916,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
This is absolutely correct. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The 12 tribes will be raptured who the 144,000 firstfruits have witnessed to.
The Church will be raptured pre trib at the trump of God on Pentecost the early summer harvest feast.

Paul was speaking to Christians concerning this last trump so it isn't related to the feast of Trumpets. He also said it is also the time of the resurrection of the dead which we know happens when Christ returns. In Rev 11 the 7th trump is related to the last of 7 in which the reign of Christ begins so we know this is also the same time of the second coming when he comes to reign over the nations with his saints.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The first four seals are actually the same guy. The crown the first rider is wearing I'd a conquerers wreath. He has a bow so it indicates ballistic weapons. The third rider is famine and rationing. The last one is a mixed bag, I call pestalence.

Here's a question for everybody, if the church has been raptured who are the Martyrs beneath the alter.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Paul was speaking to Christians concerning this last trump so it isn't related to the feast of Trumpets. He also said it is also the time of the resurrection of the dead which we know happens when Christ returns. In Rev 11 the 7th trump is related to the last of 7 in which the reign of Christ begins so we know this is also the same time of the second coming when he comes to reign over the nations with his saints.
Yeah but this is three and a half years before Armageddon, the vials haven't been poured out yet. Indeed the kingdoms of the earth have become the kingdom of Christ but I he Antichrist, false prophet and Babylon are having a big party, running around decapitating anyone that doesn't join them.

When Christ returns they are destroyed in an instant. One thing is sure, they know who's is doing this to them, that's why they were hiding from him after the sixth seal.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is absolutely correct. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The 12 tribes will be raptured who the 144,000 firstfruits have witnessed to.
The Church will be raptured pre trib at the trump of God on Pentecost the early summer harvest feast.

Cut Revelation 11:15-18 out of your Bible and maybe you can make the above work...

.
 
Upvote 0

Ron Gurley

What U See is What U Get!
Sep 22, 2015
4,000
1,029
Baton Rouge, LA
Visit site
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
TRUMPETS: signs of the FUTURE?

TRUMPETS: signs of the FUTURE?

Hmmm..."Second Coming"?..."Rapture"?...."Other?"

Joshua 6:5
It shall be that when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city will fall down flat, and the people will go up every man straight ahead.”

of the trumpet...Hebrew 7782...showphar...horn, ram's horn

sound a trumpet...Greek 4537...salpizo...to sound a trumpet

TRUMPET...Greek 4536... salpigx...a trumpet

The "Gathering"

Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His "elect" (SAVED believers) from the four winds,
from one end of the sky to the other.

The "Rapturo"

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

a "RESURRECTION"

1 Corinthians 15...
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery;
we will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet;
for the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised imperishable,
and we will be changed.

Revelation 11:15 [The Seventh Trumpet=> Christ’s Reign Foreseen]
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ;
and He will reign forever and ever.”

Joel 2:1 [The Terrible Visitation]
Blow a trumpet in Zion,(Israel)
And sound an alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
For "the day of the Lord" (judgment) is coming; Surely it is near,

QUESTIONS:
1. Will ALL of mankind "hear"? Only Believers?
2. Metaphor? Symbolism?
3. SEE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shofar...a Hebrew 'trumpet"
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
TRUMPETS: signs of the FUTURE?

TRUMPETS: signs of the FUTURE?

Hmmm..."Second Coming"?..."Rapture"?...."Other?"

Joshua 6:5
It shall be that when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city will fall down flat, and the people will go up every man straight ahead.”

of the trumpet...Hebrew 7782...showphar...horn, ram's horn

sound a trumpet...Greek 4537...salpizo...to sound a trumpet

TRUMPET...Greek 4536... salpigx...a trumpet

The "Gathering"

Matthew 24:31
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His "elect" (SAVED believers) from the four winds,
from one end of the sky to the other.

The "Rapturo"

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

a "RESURRECTION"

1 Corinthians 15...
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery;
we will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet;
for the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised imperishable,
and we will be changed.

Revelation 11:15 [The Seventh Trumpet=> Christ’s Reign Foreseen]
Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ;
and He will reign forever and ever.”

Joel 2:1 [The Terrible Visitation]
Blow a trumpet in Zion,(Israel)
And sound an alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
For "the day of the Lord" (judgment) is coming; Surely it is near,

QUESTIONS:
1. Will ALL of mankind "hear"? Only Believers?
2. Metaphor? Symbolism?
3. SEE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shofar...a Hebrew 'trumpet"


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

It includes both the living and the dead, based on the text above.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever".
How long is "forever"?



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It is the time that the dead will be judged with some rewarded and others destroyed.


Christ described the resurrection and judgment of the dead in the passage below.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


We also find the living described as "the nations" in Revelation 11:18.
See Matthew 25:31-46, for the judgment of the sheep and goats, at His Second Coming.

This also proves that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

.
 
Upvote 0

Ron Gurley

What U See is What U Get!
Sep 22, 2015
4,000
1,029
Baton Rouge, LA
Visit site
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
IMO ...Daniel 11-12; Matthew 24; 1 Thess. 4; 2 Peter 3; Revelation: are all provide links to form a possible "time-line"...

Possible Time Line BUILT on >>>> Matthew 24:

1. Begin the birth of the "Church Age" of Grace...Pentecost...Acts 1 + 2

2. Jesus promises to be with us in Spirit until the "end of the age" Matthew 28 end
...ascends/descends from the Mount of Olives...Matt 20:20; Zechariah 14:4; Acts 1:11

3. Pre-Tribulation "Birth Pangs"...NOW!...Matthew 24: 4-8

4. Begin TRIBULATION...first 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years (Chapters 11-12)
...rise of the anti-christ + REBUILD the TEMPLE! = his appearance in that TEMPLE...Matthew 24:9-20,22
...WHEN it begins? TIME Unknown!...Only the FATHER!

5. Rapture and Second Coming...finally to a throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings . 1 Thess. 4; Revelation 20:6

6. Begin GREAT TRIBULATION...Last 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years...leading up to Armageddon...Matthew 24:21-27

7. Begin the Millenium Reign...Satan Bound...Revelation 20...Jesus wins!

8. Planet Earth and unsaved inhabitants destroyed by fire. 2 Peter 3

9. New Heavens + New Earth + New Jerusalem = eternal spiritual realm...Revelation 21
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
3. Pre-Tribulation "Birth Pangs"...NOW!...Matthew 24: 4-8


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.



Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )



Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.



Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

(Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

(Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

(Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

(Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

(Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

(Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )



Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

(Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

(Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
No wonder you are so confused. Matthew and Luke are absolutely not parallel accounts.

Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)

Do you know the difference between BUT BEFORE ALL THESE AND THEN. When Jesus says BUT BEFORE ALL THESE......He is talking about the events that will happen in 70AD. When Jesus says THEN, He is saying AFTER THESES THINGS.....He is talking about a future event that will happen in the last days.

Mark 13
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

So you say that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are parallel accounts. Well, according to Mark 13 which is a parallel account of Matthew 24, LUKE WAS NOT THERE WHEN PETER, JAMES, JOHN AND ANDREW ASKED JESUS ABOUT THESE EVENTS.

SO AGAIN......According to scripture........you are wrong.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Paul was speaking to Christians concerning this last trump so it isn't related to the feast of Trumpets. He also said it is also the time of the resurrection of the dead which we know happens when Christ returns. In Rev 11 the 7th trump is related to the last of 7 in which the reign of Christ begins so we know this is also the same time of the second coming when he comes to reign over the nations with his saints.
So because they are Christians they are not going to understand that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets..........but they are going to understand about the 7th trump blown by an angel......when John hasn't gotten his revelation yet????????
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No wonder you are so confused. Matthew and Luke are absolutely not parallel accounts.

Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

(Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)

Do you know the difference between BUT BEFORE ALL THESE AND THEN. When Jesus says BUT BEFORE ALL THESE......He is talking about the events that will happen in 70AD. When Jesus says THEN, He is saying AFTER THESES THINGS.....He is talking about a future event that will happen in the last days.

Mark 13
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

So you say that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are parallel accounts. Well, according to Mark 13 which is a parallel account of Matthew 24, LUKE WAS NOT THERE WHEN PETER, JAMES, JOHN AND ANDREW ASKED JESUS ABOUT THESE EVENTS.

SO AGAIN......According to scripture........you are wrong.
Of course Luke was not there. However, any unbiased reader can easily see that through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Luke's account is parallel to that of Matthew and Mark. Luke was not there when John the Baptist was born, either. How do you think Luke wrote about John?
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
Regarding the 1Thes verses. So you think that only 1 Thes 4:17 is about the rapture? My question is then, who are those who are alive and caught up........ meeting in the clouds? Did Jesus bring anyone with Him when he came.....such as the dead in Christ? They do rise first. Do you think they rise first and split second later those that are alive are caught. Perhaps the dead in Christ rise first and then "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him".

In summary.....those who are alive and caught meet the dead in Christ whom Jesus brought with him in the clouds.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Of course Luke was not there. However, any unbiased reader can easily see that through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Luke's account is parallel to that of Matthew and Mark. Luke was not there when John the Baptist was born, either. How do you think Luke wrote about John?
LOL.....nice try.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
So because they are Christians they are not going to understand that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets..........but they are going to understand about the 7th trump blown by an angel......when John hasn't gotten his revelation yet????????

Revelation 11 is clearly half way through the tribulation:

And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” (Rev. 11:3)​

the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 and the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 appear to be identical.

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.” (Rev. 11:18)
The seven trumpets usher in the Kingdom of God:

Trumpets
1) A third of the earth was burned up.
2) A third of the sea turned into blood.
3) A third of the waters turned bitter
4) A third of the sun, moon and stars struck.
5) The Locusts from the Abyss.
6) The Four Angels and the Euphrates.
7) Thy Kingdom come.
It fits the scenario pretty well, at least if it's a straight forward exposition.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
That's roughly a midtributation rapture, personally I think it resolves a lot of things. For one thing it includes Jews that repent during the tribulation. The church goes into the tribulation, I've always believed that but at one point do we get raised, that remains an open question. The final trumpet sounds about right to me, it's a prewrath scenario and fits the prophetic scenario.
Tribulation is not wrath.
Different words.
Even Jesus told us we will suffer tribulation, as did the apostles doctrines, it is only the new religious pre trib rapture idea that conflates the wrath of God with tribulation. And where is the wrath of God poured out in Revelation? On the kingdom of the beast. Christians are not part of the kingdom of the beast.

Yes the church will not suffer wrath from heaven from God, but all pre trib rapture people think when you teach a post trib rapture that your saying the church will suffer God's wrath and put you down with disdainful loathing.

Matthew 13:21
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting themto continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Acts 20:23
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
We aren't commanded to observe those days, but that doesn't mean they are finished. Even in the coming millennial kingdom you deny, people will be observing the Feast of Booths (Zechariah 14:18-19). These are days that belong to the Lord (Leviticus 23:4) as I belong to the same Lord. The Jews were commanded to observe them, but they didn't own them.

Even at His first coming, we saw His keeping of His days:
Crucified on Passover, Buried on Unleavened Bread, Resurrection on First Fruits, and here's the link, the Holy Spirit descends on the Church on Pentecost. Next in line is the Feast of Trumpets, and that's when the 'last trump' takes place. the day of the rapture is known (or at least it should be), we just don't know the year.
Interesting that you should say "even at His first coming we saw His keeping of His days. That being said, Passover is a harvest feast. Has a harvest occurred? Pentecost is a harvest feast. Has a harvest occurred? The Feast of Trumpets is also a harvest feast and no harvest has occurred.

If God keeps his days, shouldn't we be looking for the barley harvest, the wheat harvest and the fall fruit harvest?

You also mention the Feast of Booths. The Feast of Booths is a 7 day feast that begins with a collection of palm and willow branches to be used to symbolize the rejoicing before the Lord.


Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The barley harvest, the wheat harvest and the fall fruit harvest will occur before the Feast of Booths.
 
Upvote 0

Choose Wisely

Forgiven
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2011
3,427
1,424
Texas
✟106,222.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 and the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 appear to be identical.
Hi Mark,

You say the the seventh trumpet of Rev 11:15 and the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 appear to be identical.

They are not the same. All three are separate events. The trumpet of Rev 11:15 is blown by an angel. The last trump of 1 Cor 15 is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The trump of God of 1 Thes 4 is the voice of God.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I know this may seem like a silly question... But I have to ask due to all the differing opinions out there on when the rapture will take place.

First, I'd like to state that I am operating based off the assumption that the rapture of the Church occurs at the 7th trumpet blast.

Who out there shares that viewpoint, and why? I'm very interested in this. You could say that this is a mid-trib rapture idea, and where I heard about this was at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO.

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

Anyway, make some good arguments for me! I'd love to indulge in some critical thinking here!
If you're not sure when the rapture will happen, then would you believe Jesus who has already told us when it would happen?
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Rev 16:15-16

In these two verses we find that Jesus himself connects coming like a thief (rapture) in v.15 to the battle of Armageddon in v.16. Thus we can deduce that the "rapture" occurs sometime around or before Armageddon.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Tribulation is not wrath.
Different words.
Even Jesus told us we will suffer tribulation, as did the apostles doctrines, it is only the new religious pre trib rapture idea that conflates the wrath of God with tribulation. And where is the wrath of God poured out in Revelation? On the kingdom of the beast. Christians are not part of the kingdom of the beast.

Yes the church will not suffer wrath from heaven from God, but all pre trib rapture people think when you teach a post trib rapture that your saying the church will suffer God's wrath and put you down with disdainful loathing.

That's true, thilipsis, the word for tribulation, very often refers to persecution of believers.

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation G2347) or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. (Mat 13:21)_

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, (G2347) and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (Mat 24:9)
Wrath, particularly the vials of wrath, indicate fierce anger. It can also be used in connection with the fires of perdition:

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath G2372 of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Rev 14:10)​

I believe the full wrath of God happens in the second half of the tribulation period, with the church celebrating in heaven. I've never relished wrangling with Dispensationalism and Covenant theology over this, but I have heard my view described as a prewrath rapture. It sure sounds about right to me.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.