If women shouldn't speak at all in church....

[SkyWriting]

Why did God declare that a woman would have pain during childbirth? And what do you mean by one must consider where Eve came from? I'm not clear by what you mean? Is that because she was created from part of Adam's body?

Evidently in Paradise, childbirth is painless.

If you've ever had a loved one in pain, you know
that you would prefer to have the pain yourself.

Woman came from Adam's side, denoting equality.

 

[SkyWriting]

He made the man the head of the household and siad that her husband would rule over her and that she would have pain in childbirth.

If you do unto others as you would have them do unto you, then gender preferences are voided.

 

[SkyWriting]

I believe their is a reason why God commanded this and I won't have a woman pastor because God says no.

If you do unto others as you would have them do unto you, then gender preferences are illegal.

 

[SkyWriting]

So what is being referred to by the "law" in that verse, though?

40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

It means that this is the foundation and the support for the rest of scripture.


Matthew 7:12
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Paul says he said and did things he wishes he did not do
and so is the "Chief of all sinners."
So evidently, he was still a man without angel wings.

So are you trying to imply even for a second that what Paul wrote was not the commandments of the Lord as he said they were?

Paul wrote the commandments of the Lord in every word, unless he specifically said he did not write by commandment. That was only a very few times he said that, everything else was Holy scripture he wrote, the word of God, and the commandments of the Lord

especially when he wrote

"34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor 14:34-37 KJV)

According to Paul you have to beware of verse 38...

Paul also said, by the Spirit,

"22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;"(Ephesians 5;22,23 KJV)

Jesus explains the "The Men are the leaders" lie here:

But yet Jesus spoke through Paul to write this

"2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)"(1 Timothy 3:2-5 KJV)

And finally, this slap in the face of gender prejudice wisdom:

No, I already said when a man or women are "In Christ " and led by the spirit they can prophesy and have other gifts. But Paul defines the boundaries as God set the order. They cannot judge the men or teach over men and they cannot judge their husbands.

 

[SkyWriting]

So are you trying to imply even for a second that what Paul wrote was not the commandments of the Lord as he said they were?

Yes, he is writing things Jesus did not command. He is writing letters to the churches in various places based on difficulties each church is having. Paul is writing on his own behalf to specific churches. These were churches that Jesus never saw. Even in his humility he claims to be "Chief" over all humble people.
This is a personality carryover from before his conversion.

 

[SkyWriting]

especially when he wrote

"34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor 14:34-37 KJV)

So you are explaining to me that the women in the ideal church, you currently attend,
do not speak until they get home and ask their husbands for explanation?

How would that be treating women the same as you would wish them to treat you?
The foundation of the law and the prophets.

 

[Almost there]

If women shouldn't speak at all in church, not even to sing as the logical conclusion would be since singing is a fancy way of talking, nor should they even so much as ask for clarification on a topic of discussion, why should women even be so much as bodily present in the church, period?

Since they cannot interact during services (if Paul's words are to be taken at face value and literally without trying to make them say something different so as not to offend modern feminist opinions), they are really a distant presence there anyway, like furniture.

The church then is really only a place for men to interact in, not women. If women cannot even understand what is being taught, why are they even there to begin with? If the husband can teach doctrine at home, what is the point of women wasting pew space? They aren't really wanted there even by the logical implication of Paul's (and God's) own words.

Other than taking communion, I see no compelling reason why I as a woman should be required to attend church at all then (in fact I am being more obedient in not polluting it by interacting with it at all under the logical implication of this doctrine, as women will drag down the assembly due to being more prone to deception and usurping the authority of men, even by merely speaking any idea at all, which could easily come from Satan like with Eve. By not being there, I cannot possibly destroy the church ever with my naturally evil female tendencies if I simply stay at home and learn doctrine from a man outside the assembly entirely).

Some website online (I don't have the source now, sorry) argued that the word for ecclessica or assembly is male-only, and the church is indeed really only for men, and women aren't meant to have any influence there at all. Not to speak and not to vote, and of course, not to teach or hold any kind of position of authority.

Women speaking is shameful, and therefore, women being an active presence there is shameful too. If they *must* come, they should act like they don't exist while sitting there, taking God's Word logically, honestly, and literally. So, why should women be there at all? After all, they are more prone to deception and false teaching, and could be tempted to usurp the rightful authority of men even just by sitting there with their mere presence....I really ask this question for those who DON'T believe women should speak in church, ever, like Steve Anderson. However, other opinions are welcome...

The serpent deceived the woman, not the man. The man is the head of the woman, Christ the head of the man.

The woman will hear what is said in church, as will their men. And that colors what he tries to share with her at home.

All that said, I think Paul's comments were about that particular culture. I will say this, though, Paul's words kept coming to mind when I visited the small churches here in central KY, and women would go on and on about whatever popped into their mind after the preacher asked if there were any praises, etc. at the end of the sermon. It was always women. It caused me to seek out a new church that does not "open up the floor to comments" after the sermon.

 

[SkyWriting]

They cannot judge the men or teach over men and they cannot judge their husbands.

All laws and rules in scripture apply to your life. Never to the lives of others.

 

[Almost there]

So you are explaining to me that the women in the ideal church, you currently attend,
do not speak until they get home and ask their husbands for explanation?

How would that be treating women the same as you would wish them to treat you?
The foundation of the law and the prophets.

This is just me: I don't expect to be treated like I treat my wife, and she doesn't expect me to be treated like I treat her. We are wired differently. We are created with different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[SkyWriting]

This is just me: I don't expect to be treated like I treat my wife, and she doesn't expect me to be treated like I treat her. We are wired differently. We are created with different strengths and weaknesses.

Exactly! You treat her any way you want and then have
certain different expectations on "how you should be treated."

They are not my commandments and I
give you permission to change them to suit you.

Luke 6:31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Matthew 7:12
In everything, then,
do to others as you would have them do to you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to its neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Galatians 6
2 Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way
you will fulfill the Law of Christ.

Galatians 5:14
The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Matthew 19:19
honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

 

[Almost there]

Exactly! You treat her any way you want and then have
certain different expectations on "how you should be treated."

They are not my commandments and I
give you permission to change them to suit you.

Luke 6:31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Matthew 7:12
In everything, then,
do to others as you would have them do to you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to its neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Galatians 6
2 Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way
you will fulfill the Law of Christ.

Galatians 5:14
The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Matthew 19:19
honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

I'm glad you agree, but I re-read my post and the wording was terrible. What I said was:

"This is just me: I don't expect to be treated like I treat my wife, and she doesn't expect me to be treated like I treat her."

What I actually meant to say was, "I don't expect to be treated like I treat my wife, and she doesn't expect to be treated the way she treats me."

The key is that men and women are different and my wife and I celebrate the differences.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, he is writing things Jesus did not command. He is writing letters to the churches in various places based on difficulties each church is having. Paul is writing on his own behalf to specific churches. These were churches that Jesus never saw. Even in his humility he claims to be "Chief" over all humble people.
This is a personality carryover from before his conversion.

Well then this applies to you

Paul said

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."(1 Cor 14:34-38 KJV

Verse 38 applies to you also

 

[LoveofTruth]

All laws and rules in scripture apply to your life. Never to the lives of others.

What Paul wrote was for all the churches everywhere

Paul said,

1 Thessalonians 2 - 13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”

1 Corinthians 4 - 17. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.”

You error not knowing the scriptures or the power of God

 

[LoveofTruth]

Exactly! You treat her any way you want and then have
certain different expectations on "how you should be treated."

They are not my commandments and I
give you permission to change them to suit you.

Luke 6:31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Matthew 7:12
In everything, then,
do to others as you would have them do to you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to its neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Galatians 6
2 Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way
you will fulfill the Law of Christ.

Galatians 5:14
The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Matthew 19:19
honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

James 2
8 If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

And Jesus said

John 15 - 14. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.”

And Jesus spoke through Paul to the Corinthian church and all churches and said

His order for men and women in the gatherings and what Paul wrote was the “commandments of the Lord”

 

[LoveofTruth]

So you are explaining to me that the women in the ideal church, you currently attend,
do not speak until they get home and ask their husbands for explanation?

How would that be treating women the same as you would wish them to treat you?
The foundation of the law and the prophets.

Read my first post about what kind of speaking is not allowed in a church assembled in a house. I also said women can speak in a church in prophecy prayer in the spirit testimony songs in the spirit and other spirit led gifts. But they cannot speak in judgement or teaching or dominating over their husbands or other men. Women can teach younger women and children in all good things however .

You seem to speak from an emotional state not a spiritual or scriptural place

Just curious are you a woman?

 

[Almost there]

What Paul wrote was for all the churches everywhere

Paul said,

1 Thessalonians 2 - 13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”

1 Corinthians 4 - 17. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.”

You error not knowing the scriptures or the power of God

I completely agree, though, to really understand the NT, one must understand Koine Greek. Everything else is merely an interpretation of the original and often at least appears contradictory.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I completely agree, though, to really understand the NT, one must understand Koine Greek. Everything else is merely an interpretation of the original and often at least appears contradictory.

No, I would say that even if a person knows Greek they cannot understand the New testament. We must be careful not to lead men into their own carnal mind. No man understands anything of God unless God reveals it by the Spirit. If God wants people who read the text to look at a more full meaning of a word he may lead them into that. But consider

"4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."( 1 Cor 14:4-14 KJV)

I believe the Lord revealed the things about women in the gatherings by the Spirit as I have been involved in planting churches and needed to understand such things for many years. God's order is known in the Spirit and revealed in scripture and seen among the body that waits on the Lord for all things.

 

[Almost there]

No, I would say that even if a person knows Greek they cannot understand the New testament.

I'm not talking about perfect understanding. I'm referring to the concept of moving on from milk to meat.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm not talking about perfect understanding. I'm referring to the concept of moving on from milk to meat.

again this growing aspect is by exercising our spiritual senses, all understanding is in spirit, from God, the anointing teaches us all things. The word is spiritual.

Hebrews 5:14
"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

1 John 2:27
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

1 Peter 2:2
"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"

John 6:63
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

1 Thessalonians 2:13
"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."