If women shouldn't speak at all in church....

[LoveofTruth]

The scriptures are to be read for your own learning
and never applied to other people.

"And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicean."(Colossians 4:16 KJV)

 

[SkyWriting]

"And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicean."(Colossians 4:16 KJV)

If you do that, it is good. If they choose not to do that,
it is not your place to call them sinners. They may have
their own standards of how they run their group.
No matter what "they" I am referring to.

 

[SkyWriting]

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

You can only act yourself. You can't force conversions
becasue God intentionally hardens hearts. You are implying
that people with hardened hearts should be stoned for not believing.
You can't see sin in other people. Sin is a decision you make in your heart.

 

[SkyWriting]

God”s order is not one way for some churches then totally different for others

Thanks for your view.
I read differently:

Rom 14
4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Romans 14:23
But the one who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that is not from faith is sin.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a New Moon, or a Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 3:8
He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.

 

[SkyWriting]

Every part of the body should be allowed to function but there are certain parameters for men and women as scripture teaches

No person may make rules for others that do not apply to themselves.

So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. Enter through the narrow gate.

Luke 6:31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Romans 13:8
Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."

 

[SkyWriting]

If women shouldn't speak at all in church, not even to sing as the logical conclusion would be since singing is a fancy way of talking, nor should they even so much as ask for clarification on a topic of discussion, why should women even be so much as bodily present in the church, period?
Since they cannot interact during services (if Paul's words are to be taken at face value and literally without trying to make them say something different so as not to offend modern feminist opinions), they are really a distant presence there anyway, like furniture.

There is a passage that should be used to test all of Paul's writings.

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

These as well:
What Does the Bible Say About How To Treat Women? - OpenBible.info

 

[tkolter]

My take on this is they may not have authority over men or preach to men, and a man must oversee church functions women can oversee ministry over children, teens and women supervised by the church leader including part of a couple in a couples approach to issues. But many women served God in the Bible including a prophetess (Aaron's sister), two Judges and Esther come to mind.

 

[Radagast]

If women shouldn't speak at all in church, not even to sing

AFAIK as I know, nobody believes this, because the New Testament does discuss certain examples of women speaking in church.

 

[SkyWriting]

If women shouldn't speak at all in church, not even to sing as the logical conclusion would be since singing is a fancy way of talking, nor should they even so much as ask for clarification on a topic of discussion, why should women even be so much as bodily present in the church, period?

Since they cannot interact during services (if Paul's words are to be taken at face value and literally without trying to make them say something different so as not to offend modern feminist opinions), they are really a distant presence there anyway, like furniture.

The church then is really only a place for men to interact in, not women. If women cannot even understand what is being taught, why are they even there to begin with? If the husband can teach doctrine at home, what is the point of women wasting pew space? They aren't really wanted there even by the logical implication of Paul's (and God's) own words.

Other than taking communion, I see no compelling reason why I as a woman should be required to attend church at all then (in fact I am being more obedient in not polluting it by interacting with it at all under the logical implication of this doctrine, as women will drag down the assembly due to being more prone to deception and usurping the authority of men, even by merely speaking any idea at all, which could easily come from Satan like with Eve. By not being there, I cannot possibly destroy the church ever with my naturally evil female tendencies if I simply stay at home and learn doctrine from a man outside the assembly entirely).

Some website online (I don't have the source now, sorry) argued that the word for ecclessica or assembly is male-only, and the church is indeed really only for men, and women aren't meant to have any influence there at all. Not to speak and not to vote, and of course, not to teach or hold any kind of position of authority.

Women speaking is shameful, and therefore, women being an active presence there is shameful too. If they *must* come, they should act like they don't exist while sitting there, taking God's Word logically, honestly, and literally. So, why should women be there at all? After all, they are more prone to deception and false teaching, and could be tempted to usurp the rightful authority of men even just by sitting there with their mere presence....I really ask this question for those who DON'T believe women should speak in church, ever, like Steve Anderson. However, other opinions are welcome...

Treat others the same as you'd wish to be treated.
End of Story.

 

[he-man]

Treat others the same as you'd wish to be treated.
End of Story.

why should women even be so much as bodily present in the church, period? To pay homage to God by their presence. And singing and music was allowed.

1Ch_15:19　 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;

1Sa 9:9　 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)　

1Ch_16:42　 And with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with musical instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun were porters.

1Ch_25:1　 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:

1Ch_25:5　 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn. And God gave to Heman fourteen sons and three daughters.

1Ch 25:6　 All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of the LORD.
Psa_88:1　 A Song or Psalm for the sons of Korah, to the chief Musician upon Mahalath Leannoth, Maschil of Heman the Ezrahite. O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:

 

[SkyWriting]

why should women even be so much as bodily present in the church, period?

I covered that:
Treat women in your church the same as you'd wish to be treated.
This overrides any other stories you may have heard.
You can be a man or a woman or a eunich or Kardashian.
Treat women the same as you'd wish to be treated.
End of Story.

 

[tkolter]

why should women even be so much as bodily present in the church, period? To pay homage to God by their presence. And singing and music was allowed.

1Ch_15:19　 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass;

1Sa 9:9　 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)　

1Ch_16:42　 And with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with musical instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun were porters.

1Ch_25:1　 Moreover David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of the workmen according to their service was:

1Ch_25:5　 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn. And God gave to Heman fourteen sons and three daughters.

1Ch 25:6　 All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of the LORD.
Psa_88:1　 A Song or Psalm for the sons of Korah, to the chief Musician upon Mahalath Leannoth, Maschil of Heman the Ezrahite. O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:

Where in the Bible is a woman TEACHING men they are Judges and prophetesses in a FEW cases but they one was anointed by a Prophet as a JUDGE to be her role (a special case not general), musicians and makers of song and dance to God but heading a congregation teaching men - in the OT Priests handled the preaching and Jesus had all men and after Timothy said clearly women are not to teach in Church. But can teach children and teens and if Godly women of wisdom other women and do other tasks in the Church not HEAD a religious community of men.

 

[he-man]

Where in the Bible is a woman TEACHING men they are Judges and prophetesses in a FEW cases but they one was anointed by a Prophet as a JUDGE to be her role (a special case not general), musicians and makers of song and dance to God but heading a congregation teaching men - in the OT Priests handled the preaching and Jesus had all men and after Timothy said clearly women are not to teach in Church. But can teach children and teens and if Godly women of wisdom other women and do other tasks in the Church not HEAD a religious community of men.

Ester 2:7; Huldah 2 Chronicles 34:22-28; Sarah; Miriam; Deborah; Hannah; Abigail; etc.

 

[tkolter]

I did exclude Judges (Book of Judges) and Prophetesses and Esther hardly counts she didn't preach she delivered one message the King after God made sure she became Queen she didn't lead her people she did help them. And those in a support role subservient to men.

 

[Stringfellow_Hawke]

No, it is not a repudiation of women or rejection of them in church assembly. The Bible is speaking of teaching both formally and by speaking out in the gathering. They should not teach or assert their ideas, and should be there even like many men who do not minister, to learn from Bible readings, worship God in singing, silent prayers, and encourage all after the meeting ends. The woman is viewed by God as a picture of the church in subjection to God, and the man is as the OT priest going into the holy place. One should see the whole of the verses on this subject.

Write me at pm if you wish to discuss this in detail, sister. Look up always!

Friend, that is the best explanation of that I have ever heard. I salute you!

 

[1watchman]

Friend, that is the best explanation of that I have ever heard. I salute you!

Thanks for your thoughts, friend. I don't claim to know all Scripture perfectly, but I must take "all the counsel of God" and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as God tells us. I have learned over 60 years of study that the way to be in conformity to God is by upholding the Scripture (I believe that is KJV). It is too easy to get into a habit of reasoning rather than bowing to God's Word. One can learn much about knowing the mind of God by inquiring at the very sound site: biblecounsel.net, I believe. It holds to Bible-only!

 

[Traveling teacher]

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet
1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

if you look up the word speak or teach.....
i believe it means to preach with authority as is explained in the rest of the verses.....
women cannot exercise authority over men in the church.......

i have seen some real abuses of this in America as women calling out men from the pulpit and rebuking them in public......
this is total rebellion

the scripture has to do specifically with the pulpit or a place of authority in the church.....
worship, comments in class even reading announcements is open to interpretation if this is authority position????.......

i believe what happened in corinth is this freedom Paul allowed for women in gentile churches was being abused......
so to clean up the abuse Paul shut down the whole women speaking at all issue in the church as this was chaos.....

as a teacher I can relate I give kids a little freedom in my classes to talk in computer class but if kids are too loud I will shut down the whole freedom thing and put them on QUIET TIME

I believe this is what Paul did because of the abuse in Corinth
he put the women on QUIET TIME
but not in every church

He simply kept the rule of women not preaching or exercizing authority over men in the rest of the churches...

 

[Zoii]

If women shouldn't speak at all in church, not even to sing as the logical conclusion would be since singing is a fancy way of talking, nor should they even so much as ask for clarification on a topic of discussion, why should women even be so much as bodily present in the church, period?

Since they cannot interact during services (if Paul's words are to be taken at face value and literally without trying to make them say something different so as not to offend modern feminist opinions), they are really a distant presence there anyway, like furniture.

The church then is really only a place for men to interact in, not women. If women cannot even understand what is being taught, why are they even there to begin with? If the husband can teach doctrine at home, what is the point of women wasting pew space? They aren't really wanted there even by the logical implication of Paul's (and God's) own words.

Other than taking communion, I see no compelling reason why I as a woman should be required to attend church at all then (in fact I am being more obedient in not polluting it by interacting with it at all under the logical implication of this doctrine, as women will drag down the assembly due to being more prone to deception and usurping the authority of men, even by merely speaking any idea at all, which could easily come from Satan like with Eve. By not being there, I cannot possibly destroy the church ever with my naturally evil female tendencies if I simply stay at home and learn doctrine from a man outside the assembly entirely).

Some website online (I don't have the source now, sorry) argued that the word for ecclessica or assembly is male-only, and the church is indeed really only for men, and women aren't meant to have any influence there at all. Not to speak and not to vote, and of course, not to teach or hold any kind of position of authority.

Women speaking is shameful, and therefore, women being an active presence there is shameful too. If they *must* come, they should act like they don't exist while sitting there, taking God's Word logically, honestly, and literally. So, why should women be there at all? After all, they are more prone to deception and false teaching, and could be tempted to usurp the rightful authority of men even just by sitting there with their mere presence....I really ask this question for those who DON'T believe women should speak in church, ever, like Steve Anderson. However, other opinions are welcome...

I am certainly not fundamentalist but must agree that the feeling I get is that women are not welcome. I have never been to a church service and opt to wait until its over and speak to a female priest one on one.

 

[tkolter]

The simple solution is not to have churches or tabernacles of any kind Jesis not once in the gospels commanded it the one clear mention was Peter and 'on this rock I shall build my church' could easily have mention strong faith and love of God and the church being all those who believe. In fact since He didn't construct a set of rules akin to the OT for clergy and such it never was His intent. Look at it from my perspective churches form elitist structures, take in wealth and consolidate power, rarely diverting it all to the good works of god and cause divisiveness. Since I open air preach against such structures a woman can preach because with no church as in organizations she is free to do so and do I.

How should we worship in private, bible in hand with family and friends and study the word and let the Holy Ghost work and then act in doing work to promote the faith and do charity. The tithe given to a church should then be used for helping others where it can do direct good.

 

[1watchman]

The simple solution is not to have churches or tabernacles of any kind Jesis not once in the gospels commanded it the one clear mention was Peter and 'on this rock I shall build my church' could easily have mention strong faith and love of God and the church being all those who believe. In fact since He didn't construct a set of rules akin to the OT for clergy and such it never was His intent. Look at it from my perspective churches form elitist structures, take in wealth and consolidate power, rarely diverting it all to the good works of god and cause divisiveness. Since I open air preach against such structures a woman can preach because with no church as in organizations she is free to do so and do I.

How should we worship in private, bible in hand with family and friends and study the word and let the Holy Ghost work and then act in doing work to promote the faith and do charity. The tithe given to a church should then be used for helping others where it can do direct good.

It is true we can preach anywhere and be a testimony everywhere, but there is such a thing in Scripture as the collective Church (assemblies), as the Epistles show; and it is clear that local gatherings need to be part of the universal Church and not separate sects. One needs to appreciate that the essence of the New Testament shows the universal Church as Redemption Way, Church Truth, Spiritual Life. Each one of these are interactive and also separate functions. What we do individually is different than the collective church ---a study of the Epistles shows this. I recommend one visit monthly at the site: www.biblecounsel.net to see something of what God intends for His testimony in the world. Keep looking up!