John Piper: 2-Stage Salvation

[Hammster]

My mind has not wavered in the least. I was addressing the spirit that is in many evangelicals, including most in this thread (with the clear exception of JM). The same spirit that causes evangelicals to defend their celebrity pastors when they teach heresies, or when they abuse their power, or when they fall into marital impropriety, or when they pilfer from church funds. No matter what they have done, evangelicals will rally to their defence. As can be clearly seen in this thread.

Well, just to be clear, I didn’t rally. I read the article which you didn’t even link to, and I’m not certain you read.

But after seeing your responses, I’m thinking you set this up as bait, and whoever responded in favor of the article you just assumed it was because of your preconceived notion.

And you still haven’t said what you found wrong with the article you haven’t read.

 

[Danny23000]

Salvation Sola Gratia, Sola Fide: On Distinguishing Is, With, And Through
Sorry but this is a rather scholarly article. I find it very instructive. Well worth reading.

 

[Hammster]

Salvation Sola Gratia, Sola Fide: On Distinguishing Is, With, And Through
Sorry but this is a rather scholarly article. I find it very instructive. Well worth reading.

And still waiting on what specifically you disagree with in Piper’s article.

But I see a theme.

 

[Danny23000]

Be careful, folks, Piper is not the only one. I find it shocking that all of them are from the Reformed camp!
Remembering the Protestant Reformation Means Cleaning House - The Aquila Report

 

[Hammster]

And this confirms my theory on why the Thread was started.

 

[twin1954]

The problem with Piper, just like his favorite theologian Johnathon Edwards, is that he holds to a governmental view of the atonement. Unlike penal substitution, which teaches that the Lord Jesus actually bore the penalty for the sins of the elect, the governmental view teaches that Christ bore the moral equivalent of the punishment for sins in order to uphold God's righteousness in the government of His creation.

Therefore his view of both justification and sanctification is skewed which is why his statements are confusing to many. It is actually very difficult to pin either Edwards or Piper down on the atonement. But it is easy to see their view once one understands both views.

Obviously I have never been a fan of Piper for just this reason. Yet that doesn't mean that all he says should be ignored.

 

[twin1954]

We are saved by the sin atoning death of Christ and justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ alone. To add our fruit to His finished work is to pollute it. Christ is all we need and is enough for us and for God.

While all believers do bear fruit it is a subtle form of legalism to teach that we must bear recognizable fruit in order to be saved.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Hi. Has anyone heard that John Piper believes and teaches that initial justification is by grace alone through faith alone but final salvation is based on both faith and works? What do you think of this? I used to think Piper was a very reliable Bible teacher but now I really wonder if that is so.

Please note that this has nothing to do with true faith producing good works. There is no argument about that.

I do not think that is what his conclusion was, here is his statement from the page that post #18 posted, " So faith alone doesn’t mean the same thing when applied to justification, sanctification, and final salvation. You can see what extraordinary care and precision is called for in order to be faithful to the Scripture when using the five solas. And since “Scripture alone” is our final and decisive authority, being faithful to Scripture is the goal. We aim to be biblical first — and Reformed only if it follows from Scripture". It seems to me that he is only saying that justification is by faith alone, but in sanctification, and final salvation are dependent on obedience to what "scripture alone" teaches. Which would be that you are set apart unto the day of salvation by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and being made holy(sanctified) in our walk is progressive but will occur, different growth with maturing, and that will lead to final salvation being assured because the "Scripture alone" teaches that these attribute will follow those who were truly justified. I hope I made this clear. All the elements of the 5 Solas will be there in their lives. In other words, like James said, faith without works following is dead just as the body without the spirit is dead.

And I would think that he may have wanted to make his point on this clear because there are those Calvinist that say, because they are one of the elect they will be saved apart from even faith or good works simply because they are chosen for the election. Which of course is completely false. I am not a Calvinist but do know and have talk to several who are, and I have heard them myself use a few of the point, which I told them that those things were not taught in scripture.

 

[MrJG]

Here's my point, justification is by grace through faith alone, but justification is never alone, sanctification will follow. You bear fruit or the word of God, sufficient to produce righteousness and holiness in your life, will perish in your heart. This isn't controversial, it's gospel.

So, we should not speak of getting to heaven by faith alone in the same way we are justified by faith alone. (Does God Really Save Us By Faith Alone, John Piper)​

I don't see how you can seriously dispute this statement, we are justified by grace through faith alone but we as believers, must bear fruit. Otherwise we are cast down and thrown into the fire.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruit you will recognize them (Matt. 7:19)​

Grace and peace,
Mark

Which is it? It's either salvation through faith alone, or salvation through faith + works (fruit).

Guess that means the thief on the cross who died after his repentance had no chance to bear fruit and actually make it in to heaven. Following the logic of your statement, I guess that would make Jesus a liar when He said the repentant thief would join Him in Heaven.

 

[twin1954]

The problem that the Reformed have, due to the Puritan legalistic teaching on sanctification, is that they make sanctification something man contributes to by his works.

That is not the biblical teaching on sanctification. Sanctifification is as much the work of God in us as justication is for us. We are sanctified, set part for God alone, in eternal election. We are sanctfied, declared holy, by the imputed righteousness of Christ. And we are sanctified, actually made holy in the new birth where we are made new creations in Christ. We are never said to be a reformed old man but a new man who after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph. 4

There are no degrees to holiness any more than there are degrees to righteousness. You are either holy or you are not. It is impossible to become more holy or more righteous.

Sanctification is not a process but an act of God for us and in us. It takes place in an instant when God in Christ makes us new creatures who are holy. That is the new spiritual nature given us which cannot sin because His seed remains in us. 1John 3:9

 

[JM]

The problem that the Reformed have, due to the Puritan legalistic teaching on sanctification, is that they make sanctification something man contributes to by his works.

God bless you Brother! I plan on spending a lot of time with you in eternity so get ready lol.

"...His Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces..."

"...imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit..."

"...he remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome..."

Like the song said, I get knocked down but I get up again case you're never gonna keep me down...

The Reformed teach, believe and confess that a Christian can never be finally knocked down. That, because of Christ alone, we will die believers.

#truestory

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I have always since I heard of a Calvinist view wondered why if Election was irresistible then why is it that the holy walk is not also irresistible? Romans 8 does say they will be transform into the image of Jesus, why would scripture keep telling the saints to stop yielding to the flesh and walk in the Spirit?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I do believe in election but not as they teach it. I believe the process of salvation is freely proclaimed to all, and those that do receive Him He elected to transform them into the likeness of His dear Son and therefore Romans 8:29-30 will take place because God determined that before the foundation of the universe was laid. And faith opens the door to salvation, because as He wrote in Romans 1:19-20 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. That is why Isa 55:6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near. And Jer 29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. No one does this on their own, but that was the purpose of the gospel being proclaim wasn't it? Because the word of God produces the faith in each heart and the Holy Spirit convict us of our sin and need for a Savior; John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. Calvinist always ask their pet question, how does a dead man raise himself, we know that is impossible, but nothing is impossible for God, He spoke His word and the Holy Spirit illuminates it to convict the sinners and those who believe His word, faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, believe it and confess as Lord, John 1:12 takes place then, John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. We know by grace we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ and He works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. And that is what Piper was saying on that point, if they are the elect they should be the new creation in Christ that they claim they were elected for, to be transformed into the image of Jesus. If their is no transformation being work out, do as Paul said, examine yourself that you are in the faith. Why call Me Lord, Lord and do not those things I say. That shows everyone that believes in Jesus whether or not they are God's children, John 14:15 if you love Me, keep my commandments. Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[JM]

 

[twin1954]

God bless you Brother! I plan on spending a lot of time with you in eternity so get ready lol.

"...His Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces..."

"...imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit..."

"...he remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome..."

Like the song said, I get knocked down but I get up again case you're never gonna keep me down...

The Reformed teach, believe and confess that a Christian can never be finally knocked down. That, because of Christ alone, we will die believers.

#truestory

I expect to spend eternity with you as well though you have succumbed to the Reformed tradition. None of what you quoted is from Scripture. The old man and the new man are not the same. Please show me from the Scriptures where the old man is reformed into the image of Christ. The flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. We do not need to take the flesh to the hospital of religion to be healed we must take him to the cross to be crucified with Christ.

 

[twin1954]

I do believe in election but not as they teach it. I believe the process of salvation is freely proclaimed to all, and those that do receive Him He elected to transform them into the likeness of His dear Son and therefore Romans 8:29-30 will take place because God determined that before the foundation of the universe was laid. And faith opens the door to salvation, because as He wrote in Romans 1:19-20 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. That is why Isa 55:6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near. And Jer 29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. No one does this on their own, but that was the purpose of the gospel being proclaim wasn't it? Because the word of God produces the faith in each heart and the Holy Spirit convict us of our sin and need for a Savior; John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. Calvinist always ask their pet question, how does a dead man raise himself, we know that is impossible, but nothing is impossible for God, He spoke His word and the Holy Spirit illuminates it to convict the sinners and those who believe His word, faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, believe it and confess as Lord, John 1:12 takes place then, John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. We know by grace we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ and He works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. And that is what Piper was saying on that point, if they are the elect they should be the new creation in Christ that they claim they were elected for, to be transformed into the image of Jesus. If their is no transformation being work out, do as Paul said, examine yourself that you are in the faith. Why call Me Lord, Lord and do not those things I say. That shows everyone that believes in Jesus whether or not they are God's children, John 14:15 if you love Me, keep my commandments. Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God before ordained that we should walk in them.

It it very hard to tell what you believe by your post. All of those passages are clearly for a Calvinistic view of election. In fact I use them in their context on a regular basis in arguments.(as in making an argument rather than disputing with someone) So please show how they differ with Calvinism if you can.

 

[JM]

I expect to spend eternity with you as well though you have succumbed to the Reformed tradition. None of what you quoted is from Scripture. The old man and the new man are not the same. Please show me from the Scriptures where the old man is reformed into the image of Christ. The flesh lusteth against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. We do not need to take the flesh to the hospital of religion to be healed we must take him to the cross to be crucified with Christ.

Br. Twin, how would you feel if I wrote, "what you posted could be attributed to Don Fortner but you choose to use your own words without giving credit."

Let's take a closer look at the post you disregarded in context.

You wrote, "The problem that the Reformed have, due to the Puritan legalistic teaching on sanctification, is that they make sanctification something man contributes to by his works."

You have claimed, more than once, that Reformed Baptists teach that man contributes to his sanctification with his own works. I demonstrated from a Reformed Baptist Confession that this accusation is unfounded and untrue.

The first quote demonstrates that only the word of God and the Spirit of God living within the elect will have the work of Spirit performed in them. This scriptural teaching prevents any idea of man contributing to his own sanctification.

"...His Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces..."​

The second quote clearly admits the biblical teaching that man, this side of glory, will always be at war with the flesh and never perfected.

"...imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit..."​

The last quote has nothing to do with legalism or works, it simply states the biblical truth that God's elect will fall, stumble and get knocked down BUT will always get up due to the Spirit working in them. There is no work a man can do to help himself.

"...he remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome..."​

You wrote, "The problem that the Reformed have, due to the Puritan legalistic teaching on sanctification, is that they make sanctification something man contributes to by his works."

I demonstrated the opposite.

In ch. 16.3 of the London Baptist Confession we read:

Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ;​

That is the complete opposite of, "The problem that the Reformed have, due to the Puritan legalistic teaching on sanctification, is that they make sanctification something man contributes to by his works."

and that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is necessary an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will​

Again, the complete opposite of what you posted.

You then sidestepped the issue by claiming, "None of what you quoted is from Scripture." And then proceeded to explain the teaching found on Free Grace Radio from Pastors like Fortner and Mahan.

I'm very sorry brother but you have read into the quotes I've posted with extreme bias.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[twin1954]

Br. Twin, how would you feel if I wrote, "what you posted could be attributed to Don Fortner but you choose to use your own words without giving credit."

Let's take a closer look at the post you disregarded in context.

You wrote, "The problem that the Reformed have, due to the Puritan legalistic teaching on sanctification, is that they make sanctification something man contributes to by his works."

You have claimed, more than once, that Reformed Baptists teach that man contributes to his sanctification with his own works. I demonstrated from a Reformed Baptist Confession that this accusation is unfounded and untrue.

The first quote demonstrates that only the word of God and the Spirit of God living within the elect will have the work of Spirit performed in them. This scriptural teaching prevents any idea of man contributing to his own sanctification.

"...His Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces..."​

The second quote clearly admits the biblical teaching that man, this side of glory, will always be at war with the flesh and never perfected.

"...imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit..."​

The last quote has nothing to do with legalism or works, it simply states the biblical truth that God's elect will fall, stumble and get knocked down BUT will always get up due to the Spirit working in them. There is no work a man can do to help himself.

"...he remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome..."​

You wrote, "The problem that the Reformed have, due to the Puritan legalistic teaching on sanctification, is that they make sanctification something man contributes to by his works."

I demonstrated the opposite.

In ch. 16.3 of the London Baptist Confession we read:

Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ;​

That is the complete opposite of, "The problem that the Reformed have, due to the Puritan legalistic teaching on sanctification, is that they make sanctification something man contributes to by his works."

and that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is necessary an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will​

Again, the complete opposite of what you posted.

You then sidestepped the issue by claiming, "None of what you quoted is from Scripture." And then proceeded to explain the teaching found on Free Grace Radio from Pastors like Fortner and Mahan.

I'm very sorry brother but you have read into the quotes I've posted with extreme bias.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

My apologies. I admit that I didn't read carefully enough.

Still I know what was taught by many if not most of the Puritans and have heard it preached by Reformed Baptist and Presbyterians. I am not making up what I have experienced myself under their teachings. I may be using Don's teachings but they are in my own words brother. I also know how legalistic many Reformed can be by personal experience. I have been the subject of their "discipline" one more than one occasion.

As always you have my love in Christ and once again my sincerest apology.

 

[royal priest]

My apologies. I admit that I didn't read carefully enough.

Still I know what was taught by many if not most of the Puritans and have heard it preached by Reformed Baptist and Presbyterians. I am not making up what I have experienced myself under their teachings. I may be using Don's teachings but they are in my own words brother. I also know how legalistic many Reformed can be by personal experience. I have been the subject of their "discipline" one more than one occasion.

As always you have my love in Christ and once again my sincerest apology.

Though there are some Reformed who fall into legalism, there are many which do not. For instance, in my circles, though we strive after holiness, we understand that all our righteousness' are filthy rags, and our works are only accepted on the basis of Christ's righteousness. Moreover, our works are the result of Christ working in and through us, according as He said, "without Me you can do nothing." We understand this to be the will of God for His people as JM referred to in the confession of faith. We believe God's Word teaches the inevitability that Christ will cause His people to grow in holiness. Titus 2:14; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:15-16; Proverbs 4:18. We understand this to be the basis for that Apostolic method of teaching of indicatives (what Christ has accomplished and what we are as a result of that work) being followed by imperatives (therefore, demonstrate what Jesus accomplished and continues to accomplish in the church.)

 

[JM]

My apologies. I admit that I didn't read carefully enough.

Still I know what was taught by many if not most of the Puritans and have heard it preached by Reformed Baptist and Presbyterians. I am not making up what I have experienced myself under their teachings. I may be using Don's teachings but they are in my own words brother. I also know how legalistic many Reformed can be by personal experience. I have been the subject of their "discipline" one more than one occasion.

As always you have my love in Christ and once again my sincerest apology.

Many of the works by Puritan writers we have available to us today were not meant for the masses. We have personal journals, private letters, and doctrinal writings. The first two I mentioned were dealing with personal programs, sins and issues. The writings are dealing with ways to avoid sin, implementing rules and discipline in ones life that may help to avoid falling into physical sin. I avoid gambling knowing my family has a history of gambling issues. This isn't legalism, I would not prevent anyone from gambling, it's a personal rule to aid me in following my Lord Jesus.

We all agree that mankind is hopeless lost and dead in sin. All are condemned for sin. What we disagree upon is what condemns the sinner. I, along with other Reformed Baptists, believe that all men are in covenant with God, this covenant has obligations and is often called the covenant of works. This covenant contains the eternal standard by which all men everywhere must live by. This is the eternal moral law of God and without it sinners will not be condemned. Christ died for fulfill all righteousness according to this law, the law restated at Sinai and is still the moral rule for all of mankind. Christ lived according to the law and we must follow his example. Christians can't have gods before God, worship images and idols, lie, murder, covet, commit adultery, steal, gossip or fail to worship when the local body of believers calls them to it.

By living according to this standard you affirm the eternality of the moral law.

So, it's a matter of denying it theological but affirming it with your daily life and actions. I use to get bent out of shape over this but I see Twin as affirming the 10 Commandments on this forum all the time, he lives by them and his actions are most often in accordance with them.

Yours in the Lord,

jm