John Piper: 2-Stage Salvation

[Danny23000]

Hi. Has anyone heard that John Piper believes and teaches that initial justification is by grace alone through faith alone but final salvation is based on both faith and works? What do you think of this? I used to think Piper was a very reliable Bible teacher but now I really wonder if that is so.

Please note that this has nothing to do with true faith producing good works. There is no argument about that.

 

[friend of]

I like John Piper as well.

Galatians 2:19-21

 

[Another Lazarus]

initial justification is by grace alone through faith alone but final salvation is based on both faith and works

Agreed. in other words many are called few are choosen, many are baptized, few are loyal till the end.

 

[Hammster]

Hi. Has anyone heard that John Piper believes and teaches that initial justification is by grace alone through faith alone but final salvation is based on both faith and works? What do you think of this? I used to think Piper was a very reliable Bible teacher but now I really wonder if that is so.

Please note that this has nothing to do with true faith producing good works. There is no argument about that.

And how would we know that he believes this?

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's been a long time since I read Piper (I had liked him though) ... but if you don't mind, I'd like to watch?

Any chance it might be that sanctification is acceptable as part of a life of salvation per Baptist theology? (I know there are some variations - I was brought up Baptist.) I am not sure if that's what Piper would be teaching though.

 

[BBAS 64]

Here is some of it....

have not read it yet:

Does God Really Save Us by Faith Alone? | Desiring God

some fall out:

Just a Curmudgeon: Does John Piper Believe in Salvation by Works?

 

[Hammster]

Here is some of it....

have not read it yet:

Does God Really Save Us by Faith Alone? | Desiring God

some fall out:

Just a Curmudgeon: Does John Piper Believe in Salvation by Works?

I read it. I’m in agreement with Piper here.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Here is some of it....

have not read it yet:

Does God Really Save Us by Faith Alone? | Desiring God

some fall out:

Just a Curmudgeon: Does John Piper Believe in Salvation by Works?

Thanks for the link. I have read it and am quite pleased. While we might differ on how we express things, I am essentially in agreement with Piper on his points as well. We just had our 3-day festival weekend, and my "job" was to be inside the Church where I was available for discussion on whatever topics visitors wished. I discussed with a great many Baptists, who were interested to know if our view of salvation was different from theirs (and if so, how). When I expressed it pretty much as Piper has, they all agreed (though having been brought up Baptist, I am aware of two possibly opposing points, which I won't label as one might be considered derogatory).

While I know that we officially use very different words to express what we mean (without explanation, theosis probably sounds like blasphemy to a Baptist, but it only means that we become progressively more Christ-like), I have hope that we would find ourselves in agreement on some important points if we could but understand one another.

Thank you for your hospitality.

 

[Danny23000]

If this is the general response of Baptists, it may be time for me to leave and find a denomination more aligned to the historic, Reformed faith.

 

[Hammster]

If this is the general response of Baptists, it may be time for me to leave and find a denomination more aligned to the historic, Reformed faith.

What did you find wrong with what he said?

 

[lismore]

I don't like the article.

'Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life' (John 5:24)

No two stages. You cross from death to life when you hear and believe. You have eternal life.

Mr Piper seems to be taking James out of context in that it was not written to a Gentile Church, it was written to Jews.

God Bless

 

[Hammster]

I don't like the article.

'Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life' (John 5:24)

No two stages. You cross from death to life when you hear and believe.

God Bless

What part of the article went against that?

 

[lismore]

What part of the article went against that?

Hello Friend:
'In final salvation at the last judgment, faith is confirmed by the sanctifying fruit it has borne, and we are saved through that fruit and that faith'

In the sense the author is meaning I don't believe we are saved through that faith and that fruit.

We are saved through God's mercy.

God Bless

 

[Hammster]

Hello Friend:
'In final salvation at the last judgment, faith is confirmed by the sanctifying fruit it has borne, and we are saved through that fruit and that faith'

In the sense the author is meaning I don't believe we are saved through that faith and that fruit.

We are saved through God's mercy.

God Bless

He’s saying the same thing James says in Chapter 2.

 

[lismore]

He’s saying the same thing James says in Chapter 2.

He shouldn't be taking James ch 2 out of context. He should be saying what Paul says in Ephesians Chapter 2. James wrote to legalistic Jews in need of salvation, Paul wrote to Gentile believers.

But I don't think John Piper is saying the same as James anyway.

 

[lismore]

All our good works are no better than filthy rags in the sight of a Holy God. None of us could save ourselves or make ourselves acceptable to God by our works, our fruits, our faith. God himself had to provide himself as a sin offering for us, Jesus Christ, the Son of God come in flesh to live the perfect life of faith and fruit we could not live, then die on the cross as God's atoning sacrifice for our sins. All who believe in the Lord Jesus, his finished work on the Cross will be saved, our debts PAID IN FULL. Salvation is freely given, for free and freely to any who would receive it. You can be saved, come to the Lord Jesus today. Whoever you are, if you haven't yet been saved, Jesus is waiting for you, you can be saved today

 

[Hammster]

All our good works are no better than filthy rags in the sight of a Holy God. None of us could save ourselves or make ourselves acceptable to God by our works, our fruits, our faith. God himself had to provide himself as a sin offering for us, Jesus Christ, the Son of God come in flesh to live the perfect life of faith and fruit we could not live, then die on the cross as God's atoning sacrifice for our sins. All who believe in the Lord Jesus, his finished work on the Cross will be saved, our debts PAID IN FULL. Salvation is freely given, for free and freely to any who would receive it. You can be saved, come to the Lord Jesus today. Whoever you are, if you haven't yet been saved, Jesus is waiting for you, you can be saved today

But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. - James 2:18

 

[OzSpen]

Here is some of it....

have not read it yet:

Does God Really Save Us by Faith Alone? | Desiring God

some fall out:

Just a Curmudgeon: Does John Piper Believe in Salvation by Works?

BBAS,

Part of what John Piper states in this article helps clarify what he means by justification by faith and the place that works involves:

So, when James says these controversial words, “A person is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24), I take him to mean not by faith which is alone, but which shows itself by works. Paul calls this effect or fruit or evidence of faith the “work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:11) and the “obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5; 16:26). These works of faith, and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for our final salvation.​

Oz

 

[Danny23000]

There's a world of difference between saying:
1) True, saving faith must produce good works
and
2) Final salvation comes through faith and good works.

At worst, this is a desertion of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. At best, it's plain confusing and will lead many to believe in good works for salvation.

 

[Hammster]

There's a world of difference between saying:
1) True, saving faith must produce good works
and
2) Final salvation comes through faith and good works.

At worst, this is a desertion of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. At best, it's plain confusing and will lead many to believe in good works for salvation.

What exactly does he say that leads you to the conclusion that he holds to number 2?