John Piper: 2-Stage Salvation

[royal priest]

Many of the works by Puritan writers we have available to us today were not meant for the masses. We have personal journals, private letters, and doctrinal writings. The first two I mentioned were dealing with personal programs, sins and issues. The writings are dealing with ways to avoid sin, implementing rules and discipline in ones life that may help to avoid falling into physical sin. I avoid gambling knowing my family has a history of gambling issues. This isn't legalism, I would not prevent anyone from gambling, it's a personal rule to aid me in following my Lord Jesus.

We all agree that mankind is hopeless lost and dead in sin. All are condemned for sin. What we disagree upon is what condemns the sinner. I, along with other Reformed Baptists, believe that all men are in covenant with God, this covenant has obligations and is often called the covenant of works. This covenant contains the eternal standard by which all men everywhere must live by. This is the eternal moral law of God and without it sinners will not be condemned. Christ died for fulfill all righteousness according to this law, the law restated at Sinai and is still the moral rule for all of mankind. Christ lived according to the law and we must follow his example. Christians can't have gods before God, worship images and idols, lie, murder, covet, commit adultery, steal, gossip or fail to worship when the local body of believers calls them to it.

By living according to this standard you affirm the eternality of the moral law.

So, it's a matter of denying it theological but affirming it with your daily life and actions. I use to get bent out of shape over this but I see Twin as affirming the 10 Commandments on this forum all the time, he lives by them and his actions are most often in accordance with them.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Ironically, even though many true Christians fail to appreciate the purpose and value of the moral Law, they will tend to uphold it in their personal walk as the right thing to do. For instance, John Macarther and his view of the 4th commandment.
On the other hand, those with a high view always need to guard against legalism (the leaven of the Pharisees). Henry Scudder had concerns that his congregation may have been esteeming his book, The Christian's Daily Walk, over the Bible.

 

[JM]

Yeah, that's why I don't get too worked up about it.

 

[quidam65]

If this is the general response of Baptists, it may be time for me to leave and find a denomination more aligned to the historic, Reformed faith.

It isn't. The only Baptist denomination that denies eternal security is the Free Will Baptist one.

I've spoken with adherents of Catholicism, Free Will Baptist, Assembly of God, and Church of Christ (all of which deny eternal security) and they agree that the term "loss of salvation" is a poor explanation--"forfeit" or "repudiate" is a better term since it involves as much a choice to no longer believe than there was to believe in the first place.

 

[RDKirk]

It isn't. The only Baptist denomination that denies eternal security is the Free Will Baptist one.

I've spoken with adherents of Catholicism, Free Will Baptist, Assembly of God, and Church of Christ (all of which deny eternal security) and they agree that the term "loss of salvation" is a poor explanation--"forfeit" or "repudiate" is a better term since it involves as much a choice to no longer believe than there was to believe in the first place.

Yes. One doesn't lose salvation as he might lose his car keys. One must first slap away the Holy Spirit multiple times.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It isn't. The only Baptist denomination that denies eternal security is the Free Will Baptist one.

I've spoken with adherents of Catholicism, Free Will Baptist, Assembly of God, and Church of Christ (all of which deny eternal security) and they agree that the term "loss of salvation" is a poor explanation--"forfeit" or "repudiate" is a better term since it involves as much a choice to no longer believe than there was to believe in the first place.

Hello and welcome to CF!

I agree that to "lose" salvation is a silly way to put it. It's not as though you can misplace it, as @RDKirk said.

But mostly wanted to welcome you to CF. I pray you are blessed by being here.

 

[Jonathan Leo]

Hi. Has anyone heard that John Piper believes and teaches that initial justification is by grace alone through faith alone but final salvation is based on both faith and works? What do you think of this? I used to think Piper was a very reliable Bible teacher but now I really wonder if that is so.

Please note that this has nothing to do with true faith producing good works. There is no argument about that.

What he is saying is true,
If we have faith to believe in Jesus to save us yet we do not do what he commands, are we really believing Him?

 

[Jonathan Leo]

Yes. One doesn't lose salvation as he might lose his car keys. One must first slap away the Holy Spirit multiple times.

What do you mean slap away the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jonathan Leo]

BBAS,

Part of what John Piper states in this article helps clarify what he means by justification by faith and the place that works involves:

So, when James says these controversial words, “A person is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24), I take him to mean not by faith which is alone, but which shows itself by works. Paul calls this effect or fruit or evidence of faith the “work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:11) and the “obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5; 16:26). These works of faith, and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for our final salvation.​

Oz

In a nutshell we must be born again. We must posses the Holy Spirit.

How do we acquire the Holy Spirit? He is given to us by having faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus said himself

What’s evidence of the Holy Spirit in our lives? We bear fruit. Love, joy, peace, era here Galatians 5:22

What’s evidence of not having the Holy Spirit? Sins of the flesh, slander, fits of rage, hatred, era here Galatians 5:19-21

In fact the whole thing can be explained here Galatians 5
Lol

 

[OzSpen]

In a nutshell we must be born again. We must posses the Holy Spirit.

How do we acquire the Holy Spirit? He is given to us by having faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus said himself

What’s evidence of the Holy Spirit in our lives? We bear fruit. Love, joy, peace, era here Galatians 5:22

What’s evidence of not having the Holy Spirit? Sins of the flesh, slander, fits of rage, hatred, era here Galatians 5:19-21

I was dealing with the theology of 'justification by works' in James 2.
In fact the whole thing can be explained here Galatians 5
Lol

 

[RDKirk]

What do you mean slap away the Holy Spirit?

That the Holy Spirit abiding within a Christian does not say, "Ooooh, you sinned, I'm outa here!" The Holy Spirit convicts, nags, convicts, nags, and convicts again. At some point a person sears his conscience, grieves the Holy Spirit, and ultimately must blaspheme the Holy Spirit that is within him.

 

[RDKirk]

Hi. Has anyone heard that John Piper believes and teaches that initial justification is by grace alone through faith alone but final salvation is based on both faith and works? What do you think of this? I used to think Piper was a very reliable Bible teacher but now I really wonder if that is so.

Please note that this has nothing to do with true faith producing good works. There is no argument about that.

I like John Piper a lot, although he is a staunch Calvinist and I'm not. Piper has married concepts about Election that I only dance with.

Now, I'd have to listen to what Piper is actually saying rather than your interpretation of what he's teaching, but I think he's probably rather struggling a bit with his earlier concepts on Calvinism. He's struggling with how the Elect might yet continue in sin without even an attempt at abatement.

This is kind of the way Wesley began to struggle with his earlier concepts of sanctification. As a young man, he preached that each person must become fully sanctified in this life to be saved; as he became an old man, he began to realize full sanctification in this life was not possible.

 

[Jonathan Leo]

That the Holy Spirit abiding within a Christian does not say, "Ooooh, you sinned, I'm outa here!" The Holy Spirit convicts, nags, convicts, nags, and convicts again. At some point a person sears his conscience, grieves the Holy Spirit, and ultimately must blaspheme the Holy Spirit that is within him.

Ahhhhhh,
So it’s the hardening of mans mind and heart that causes the Holy Spirit to leave.
Can you explain the scripture “ those who the farther gives me none I shall lose”

 

[RDKirk]

Ahhhhhh,
So it’s the hardening of mans mind and heart that causes the Holy Spirit to leave.
Can you explain the scripture “ those who the farther gives me none I shall lose”

Not fully--which is why the Calvinist-"Arminianist" debate has been going on for 500 years. If it were that easily settled, the debate would have ended 499 years ago.

In the "big picture" sense, because God is eternal (existing outside time) and thus omniscient, He knows with certainty who is saved (in His knowledge, "will be" saved in ours). What does that mean for so-called "free will?" I don't know, and I don't care. If I have free will, I freely surrender it, so it doesn't matter whether I ever really had it or not. If it actually exists, it only gets us into trouble, anyway.

Scripture speaks with enough witnesses to be certain that the concept of "election" exists. It also speaks with enough witnesses that once salvation is initially accepted, it's possible to reject it.

There are also enough witnesses to show that God Himself will never be the initator of a rejection of salvation--that must be totally by the intention of the person, and it will be over Jesus' crucified-and-resurrected body.

I think Calvinists make too much of election. Remember that Paul did not preach to people in a religion vacuum. His audience was already very religious, believing heavily in a pantheon of gods that were very fickle with their favor. Zeus might love you one day and curse you the next, so their religion was a matter of constantly trying to entreat various gods to stay in their favor.

From my reading of scripture, I believe Paul's speaking of election was to assure the young Christians that the God of Abraham is not a God of whimsy and fickleness. His plans are eternal and firm. Their salvation had been His plan from the beginning, and He's never going to turn away from them as they constantly feared their old gods would.

I think it's a mistake to push the concept of election farther than that

 

[BBGrad96]

I dont know if anyone will see this as this is kind of an old thread at this point. But I fail to understand how claiming that final salvation is by faith and works is wrong? Is not sanctification necessary to enter into heaven? Piper claims that Christ is the one who completes that work in us, but it is still a required work. Therefore the work of sanctification is required to enter heaven. Not a work that we do, but that Christ does in us. I think I would sum up the argument this way: we can be justified, by faith alone, and yet still be dirty (sinful and sinning) but we cannot enter heaven dirty. And to the one who asked if election is irresistible why is sanctification not irresistible. I would say it is irresistible. There's no stopping Christ completing the work of sanctification in us if we are truly his. We will not fall away. Would love to see any response to this.

 

[mark kennedy]

I dont know if anyone will see this as this is kind of an old thread at this point. But I fail to understand how claiming that final salvation is by faith and works is wrong? Is not sanctification necessary to enter into heaven? Piper claims that Christ is the one who completes that work in us, but it is still a required work. Therefore the work of sanctification is required to enter heaven. Not a work that we do, but that Christ does in us. I think I would sum up the argument this way: we can be justified, by faith alone, and yet still be dirty (sinful and sinning) but we cannot enter heaven dirty. And to the one who asked if election is irresistible why is sanctification not irresistible. I would say it is irresistible. There's no stopping Christ completing the work of sanctification in us if we are truly his. We will not fall away. Would love to see any response to this.

Agreed, but it is by grace.

Grace and peace.
Mark

 

[Sam91]

I do not see why people think John Piper, or James are saying you are saved through works. Neither are saying that.

Both are explaining that if you have been saved that you will be producing fruit. Your faith will super-naturally produce these. You will be obedient to Christ and treating those around you with love. This equates to helping others, not ostracising the poor man in church but treating him with love. The works are not to earn salvation but how one would act under the influence of Christ. I have Galations 5 quoted in my signature. How can one deny that the fruit of the spirit do not produce works?

What these people are saying is that if you have truly been saved this stuff will be evident. If not, they haven't truly understood and are still in the flesh and not right with God. They are still in disobedience and not loving their neighbour. Not because producing works will save anyone, all the works in the world are just vanity, unless it is something which happens from the heart through Christ's influence, glorifying Him not the human doing the deed.