Revelation 20:1-6 A Literal Kingdom?

Truth7t7

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For some this is a truth that has already come to pass, though there be many more to 'see' it in the future. The truth is narrowed down to ONE...and that is what that scripture describes...that revelation within of the truth that we are...when we can SEE by the spirit of Christ within, mind of man cannot 'see'...

Man measures and divides the things of God, who is infinite and immeasurable. Jesus prayed for us to all be one...by the same spirit...

From John 17
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one
Your response has been you deny a literal future bodily resurrection and second coming of Jesus Christ, "Fact"!

This is a christian eschatology, where we all hold to "Literal Accounts" of these events as "Future" your in the wrong forum with your belief, I would request at this time you stop trolling with your whatever belief it is, in this forum.
 
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Truth7t7

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Well there's this:

Isaiah 66:22-23
(22) For as the new heaven and the new earth which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) and it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

Time? Never ending time.

As far as the word "soul" goes. In the Greek and Hebrew it translates it as a person, being. I don't believe a soul is some kind of "force" a person possesses rather it is what a person is. We have the breath of life from the Lord. If a human is unable to sustain their life here on earth with the breath of life which is from God (i.e. without machines) then they are dead and in the grave waiting for the 1st resserection. The breath of life returns to God.

A lot of people believe that when one dies they "go somewhere" or their "soul goes somewhere"(whether heaven or hell, of wherever) to me, to believe that takes on the tone of immortality and we don't get that until Jesus comes back.

Breath of life is the breathing power source from God that keeps us alive.

Example:
KJV
Genesis 46

26All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;

Other interpretations use person or persons.

souls - person/persons
It sounds like you believe in the 7th day Adventist "soul sleep" I strongly disagree with this, and many of Ellen G. Whites teachings. :)
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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Your response has been you deny a literal future bodily resurrection and second coming of Jesus Christ, "Fact"!

This is a christian eschatology, where we all hold to "Literal Accounts" of these events as "Future" your in the wrong forum with your belief, I would request at this time you stop trolling with your whatever belief it is, in this forum.

I have not denied the second coming of Jesus Christ. Just not perceiving it the same as you do... I do not see anywhere in scripture where it says the body of flesh in the grave will resurrect, as it is the spirit that lives and the flesh profiteth nothing in Jesus words "The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life." John 6:63

I do see that you started this thread and and the very title is a question. Sorry if I misunderstood that it wasn't actually a question. "Revelation 20:1-6 A Literal Kingdom?"


Wow. Trolling? Not even sure what that is...
I just read the SOP for this forum and my sharing is not contrary as it fits here:
  • Idealism: (also called the spiritual approach, the allegorical approach, the nonliteral approach, and many other names) in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as symbols.
We are allowed to have differing opinions:

Members who participate in the Eschatology Forum are expected to treat one another with courtesy and respect at all times, ESPECIALLY when you disagree with each other.
  • When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster.
  • When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.
  • When you disagree and you find yourself becoming frustrated and angry, step away from the computer and give yourself time to cool down.
  • Always proofread your post before hitting the "Reply" button to make sure you have responded with courtesy and respect.
It is your thread. It is a big sword you wield in accusation, but I forgive you.
 
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Truth7t7

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I have not denied the second coming of Jesus Christ. Just not perceiving it the same as you do... I do not see anywhere in scripture where it says the body of flesh in the grave will resurrect, as it is the spirit that lives and the flesh profiteth nothing in Jesus words "The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life." John 6:63

I do see that you started this thread and and the very title is a question. Sorry if I misunderstood that it wasn't actually a question. "Revelation 20:1-6 A Literal Kingdom?"


Wow. Trolling? Not even sure what that is...
I just read the SOP for this forum and my sharing is not contrary as it fits here:
  • Idealism: (also called the spiritual approach, the allegorical approach, the nonliteral approach, and many other names) in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as symbols.
We are allowed to have differing opinions:

Members who participate in the Eschatology Forum are expected to treat one another with courtesy and respect at all times, ESPECIALLY when you disagree with each other.
  • When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster.
  • When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.
  • When you disagree and you find yourself becoming frustrated and angry, step away from the computer and give yourself time to cool down.
  • Always proofread your post before hitting the "Reply" button to make sure you have responded with courtesy and respect.
It is your thread. It is a big sword you wield in accusation, but I forgive you.

I openly apologize for my previous statement of "Trolling", It appears you teach "Idealism" that is allowed on this forum, and excluded in many other christian forums, my comment was in ignorance of the forum rules.

I fully disagree with "Idealism" and as previously stated I apologize once again. :)
 
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eleos1954

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It sounds like you believe in the 7th day Adventist "soul sleep" I strongly disagree with this, and many of Ellen G. Whites teachings. :)


It sounds like you believe in the 7th day Adventist "soul sleep" I strongly disagree with this, and many of Ellen G. Whites teachings. :)

The Bible is very clear about the state of the dead. There are many many references in the Bible about the "state of the dead" as "being asleep", many.

As far as "other peoples writings" .... that's what they are peoples writings. Sometimes they are in harmony with the Bible .... sometimes not. The only "writings" that are correct are those in the Holy Bible. I believe what the Holy Bible says.

This is Jesus speaking - it is the story of Lazarus

John 11

11After He had said this, He told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.”

12His disciples said, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Jesus called Lazarus forth from where? The grave.

John 11
43When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
 
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BABerean2

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I do not see anywhere in scripture where it says the body of flesh in the grave will resurrect

Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Joh 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 




The timing of the event is found in Revelation 11:18, where we have "the nations", "wrath", and "the time of the judgment of the dead".
You also find reward and destruction in the same verse.


.
 
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eleos1954

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Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Joh 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 




The timing of the event is found in Revelation 11:18, where we have "the nations", "wrath", and "the time of the judgment of the dead".
You also find reward and destruction in the same verse.


.

Reserrection Definition - Greek



anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising

Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: anastasis

Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)

Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection

Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies

386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
 
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parousia70

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Do you also deny a future, literal second coming of Jesus Christ as seen in Matthew 24:30 "They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"?

Was this coming physical?

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

Or ths one?:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

or this:?
Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

or these?:

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


??

if not, can you show where scripture teaches you to interpret "God rides a swift cloud... and was seen by the eyes of all nations" in the OT, in polar opposite fashion to "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see" in the NT?
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

Joh 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 




The timing of the event is found in Revelation 11:18, where we have "the nations", "wrath", and "the time of the judgment of the dead".
You also find reward and destruction in the same verse.


.
Lazarus was also raised from the grave...heard His voice while his body of flesh lay dead and stinking in a tomb. It was the spirit within Lazarus that heard Jesus voice to 'come forth'... as in Jesus words, "the flesh profiteth nothing, the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

The judging...tribulation, refining fires all take place to burn away the carnal imaginations and perceptions of who God might be and revealing the truth that we are...when that DAY (of the Lord that goes from darkness/Night to light/Day (Genesis 1) no sun or moon yet created) comes every (single of) eye will "see"...and know as they have always been known...reconciled utterly back to the father as it was from the beginning.

To put God in a box is to limit Him in our own perception. He is infinite and immeasurable beyond the confines of time and space as a man perceives in a day (sun and moon created on the 4th)...Which has everything to do with the question asked in the garden "Where art thou?" when the sudden change in eyesight took place to Adam. Christ came to restore that...
 
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Truth7t7

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The Bible is very clear about the state of the dead. There are many many references in the Bible about the "state of the dead" as "being asleep", many.

As far as "other peoples writings" .... that's what they are peoples writings. Sometimes they are in harmony with the Bible .... sometimes not. The only "writings" that are correct are those in the Holy Bible. I believe what the Holy Bible says.

This is Jesus speaking - it is the story of Lazarus

John 11

11After He had said this, He told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.”

12His disciples said, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Jesus called Lazarus forth from where? The grave.

John 11
43When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
Are you a 7th day Adventist?
 
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Truth7t7

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The Bible is very clear about the state of the dead. There are many many references in the Bible about the "state of the dead" as "being asleep", many.

As far as "other peoples writings" .... that's what they are peoples writings. Sometimes they are in harmony with the Bible .... sometimes not. The only "writings" that are correct are those in the Holy Bible. I believe what the Holy Bible says.

This is Jesus speaking - it is the story of Lazarus

John 11

11After He had said this, He told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.”

12His disciples said, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Jesus called Lazarus forth from where? The grave.

John 11
43When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
There are many scriptures that refute soul sleep,

1.) absent from the body, present with the Lord

2.) Rich man and Lazarus, eternal comfort/torment at death.

I don't desire to engage in 7th day adventist doctrine, hope you understand :)
 
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Truth7t7

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Was this coming physical?

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

Or ths one?:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

or this:?
Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

or these?:

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


??

if not, can you show where scripture teaches you to interpret "God rides a swift cloud... and was seen by the eyes of all nations" in the OT, in polar opposite fashion to "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see" in the NT?
Your response has nothing to do with the context of Matthew Matthew 24:29-31
 
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It seems that all the arguments against a literal millennium center around two ideas. The first of these is that the scriptures teach that the earth will be destroyed by fire immediately after the Lord returns to judge the world for its wickedness. This notion centers mostly around the claim that it all happens on "the day of the Lord," which these people think means a single, 24 hour revolution of the earth on its axis.

As this argument pops up very often, some time ago I wrote the following about the scriptural expressions "the day of the Lord" and "the last day."

This expression occurs 18 times in the Old Testament. And every time it is used, the Hebrew word which was translated day is yom. This is word number 3117 in Strong's Greek dictionary, and is defined by Strong as follows:

"From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially):—age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger."

So we clearly see that, although yom often means a literal 24 hour day, it is also often used figuratively to designate a period of time. Here are just a few of the numerous times this was done.

“In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the LORD of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction. In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border.” (Isaiah 19:18-19)

“In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria--a blessing in the midst of the land, whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, ‘Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.’” (Isaiah 19:23-25)

“And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- ‘The LORD is one,’ And His name one.” (Zechariah 14:8-9) This example is particularly significant because the term “that day” is explicitly stated as a time that includes both “summer and winter.”

Further, the expression “the day of the Lord” is used in Ezekiel 30:3 in regard to a coming attack by Nebuchadnezzar upon Egypt, Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in their league.( Ezekiel 30:1-19)

This is absolute proof that the scriptural term "the day of the Lord" does not refer to a specific 24 hour period of time.



Like the Hebrew word translated day, the Greek word translated day in the expression "the last day" is hemera (word number 2250 in Strong's Greek dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows:

"Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἡμαι he-mai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):—age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years."

The figurative use of this word as a time is found in Luke 6:22-23. "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."

When they were hated, and separated from the company of the others, and reproached, and villified as evil, then they should rejoice. And the time when they should so rejoice is called "that day."

We see this again in John 8:56, where Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." Jesus' day went all the way back to the time of Abraham.

We see it again in John 16:23-27, where Jesus called all the time after his resurrection "that day." "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God."

We see it again in Acts 8:1, where we read, "And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles." A persecution that only lasted one day would not scatter the entire church except for the Apostles. Yet the Greek word translated time in this sentence is this same Greek word hemera which literally means day.

We see this again in Acts 15:7, where peter said, "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe." The Greek word translated while in this sentence is this same hemera, which literally means day. This same (correct) translation of hemera as while was done in Acts 18:18. "And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow."

We see it again in Romans 8:36, "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." And in Romans 10:21, "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

This is not all the examples we could examine, but we will stop with 2 Corinthians 6:2, "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)"

All this is conclusive proof that neither the term “the day of the Lord” nor the term “the last day” necessarily refers to a specific 24 hour period. But many other scriptures clearly show that both of these terms refer to a period of time, not to a specific day.
 
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Biblewriter

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The second basis for denying a literal millennium, is the claim that the prophecy about it is only figurative. And if the entire basis for believing in it were the few verses in Revelation 20, that argument could at least seem to have some merit.

But the hard truth is, that the only way to avoid the conclusion that there will indeed be a temporary kingdom on this earth After the Lord comes to judge the world for its wickedness and before He destroys the world by fire, is to assume that literally hundreds of passages of scripture simply do not mean what they explicitly say.

The scriptures contain a highly detailed description of a coming time, which they plainly teach is designed to bring the rebellious nation of Israel to repentance. These details contain how to know when it is time to run, where to go, and how many days to remain in hiding. They also tell why it will be necessary yo run, and that is because immediately after this event, there will be a destructive invasion that will kill two-thirds of all the inhabitants of the land. And they even go so far as to specify the daily progress of the invader as he comes down on Jerusalem. And these many descriptions of coming events contain many details which have unquestionably never been fulfilled.

The scriptures explicitly say that this program will work, and that a significant number of individuals within the nation of Israel will finally repent of their rebellion against their Lord. And it is only when this repentance has finally set in, that messiah will finally return to deliver them. And when He appears, the scriptures describe five successive battles of campaigns that will be fought. The descriptions of these battles are highly detailed, and ex[licitly name many places and peoples involved in these battles.

And these descriptions end with explicit statements about all Israel returning to their ancient homeland, stressing the fact that this return will involve absolutely all of them. They explicitly say that the Lord will purge the rebels from among them as they return, and then that He will settle them in their ancient homeland. They explicitly define the borders of Israel at that time, and specify how it is to be divided among the twelve tribes of Israel.

Then the scriptures describe this kingdom in explicitly stated language, giving rules governing what the king will be allowed to do, and very explicitly describe the form of worship to be used at that time. And the form of worship described is neither that defined in the law of Moses nor that which scripture defines for us today.

So even though Revelation 20 is the only scripture that explicitly says this kingdom will last a thousand years, denying that it will indeed take place REQUIRES denying that the Holy Spirit actually meant what He so very explicitly said in all of these very many descriptions.

So - which should we believe, that the Holt Spirit actually meant what He said in these very many scriptures, or that the interpretations which some place upon a much smller number of scriptures is correct?
 
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Biblewriter

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Associated with the claims that there will be no future kingdom on this earth, is a claim that this was never taught in the first 1800 years of the church. But this is totally incorrect. The truth is, that the only surviving document dating from before the fourth century, that denies this future kingdom, was written by a man justly condemned for heresy due to his many denials of basic Christian doctrine.

But this future kingdom was explicitly taught in all the following statements. Unless otherwise noted, all the quotations below are from the widely circulated ten volume set titled “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers.” A quick check of the index will show which volume contains each writer and article.

The earliest Christian commentator on Bible prophecy known to modern scholars was Papias, who is thought to have written between 110 and 140 A. D. All of his writings have been lost, but Eusebius said concerning him:

“The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth.” (“The Church History,” by Eusebius, book III, chapter XXXIX, sections 12-13.)

The next Christian commentator on prophecy that we know about was Justyn, who is called Justin Martyr, because he died as a martyr. In his famous work titled “Dialogue with Trypho,” which is thought to have been written between 150 and 160 A.D., he said:

“And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.” (“Dialogue With Trypho,” by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXXI.)

Again, Justyn said:

“And Trypho to this replied, ‘I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? Or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?’
“Then I answered, ‘I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.’” (“Dialogue with Tyrpho,” by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXX.)

The next writer on prophecy that we know about was Irenaeus, whose very famous five volume work titled “against Heresies,” which is believed to have been published when he was Bishop of Lyons, which would date it to between the years 186 and 188 A.D., said:

“It behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXII, section 1.)

And in another place, Irenaeus said:

“‘And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the right hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,’ that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.
“For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: ‘Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works.’This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVII, sections 2-3)

The last twelve chapters of this very famous work are the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length. All of the older ones were either very short or have been lost. And most of these twelve chapters sound like they might have been written last week at any of the Dispensational seminaries in the United States. It is easy to find these twelve short chapters online, Read them for yourself and see.

Tertullian, who is thought to have written between 197 and 220 A. D., said:

“But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem... We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name's sake... After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment:” (“Against Maricon,” by Tertullian, book III, chapter XXV.)

In his “Commentary on Daniel,” which is the very oldest surviving Cristian commentary on scripture, as opposed to a commentary on a scriptural subject, and is thought to have been written between the years 202 and 211 A.D., Hippolytus said:

"And so it is absolutely necessary for six-thousand years to be fulfilled, so that the Sabbath rest may come, the holy day, in which God rested from all his works which he began to do. The Sabbath is a model and an image of the coming kingdom of the saints, when the saints shall coreign with Christ, when he arrives from heaven, as also John in his Apocalypse describes. For a day of the Lord is as a thousand years. And so since in six days God made all things, it is necessary for six thousand years to be fulfilled. For they are not yet fulfilled, as John says, ‘Five have fallen, but one is,’ such is the sixth millennium, ‘the other has not yet come,’ saying ‘the other’ he describes the seventh millenniumnin which there shall be rest.” (“Commentary on Daniel,” by Hippolytus, 23.4-23.6, from the forthcoming translated by T. C. Schmidt of Yale University.)

Again, the very oldest commentary on the Revelation is the “Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John,” by Victorinus. We do not know the dates at which Victorinus wrote, but he is thought to have flourished around the year 270 A.D. He said concerning the vision in Revelation 20:

“And the scarlet devil is imprisoned and all his fugitive angels in the Tartarus of Gehenna at the coming of the Lord; no one is ignorant of this. And after the thousand years he is released, because of the nations which will have served Antichrist: so that they alone might perish, as they deserved. Then is the general judgment. Therefore he says: And they lived, he says, the dead who were written in the book of life, and they reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first resurrection: toward this one the second death has no power. Of this resurrection, he says: And I saw the Lamb standing, and with him 144 thousands, that is, standing with Christ, namely those of the Jews in the last time who become believers through the preaching of Elijah, those who, the Spirit bears witness, are virgins not only in body, but also in language. Therefore, as he reminds above, the 24 elder-aged said: Grace we bring to You, O Lord God who has reigned; and the nations are angry.
“At this same first resurrection will also appear the City and the splendid things expressed through this Scripture. Of this first resurrection Paul also spoke to the Macedonian church, thus: For as we have thus said to you, he says, by the Word of God, that at the trumpet of God, the Lord Himself will descend from heaven for raising up; and the dead in Christ will stand first, then we who are living, as we will be taken up with Him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. We have heard the trumpet spoken of; it is observed that in another place the Apostle names another trumpet. Therefore he says to the Corinthians: At the last trumpet, the dead will rise, will become immortal, and we will be changed.b He says the dead will be raised immortal for bearing punishments, but it is shown that we are to be changed and to be covered in glory. Therefore where we hear ‘the last trumpet,’ we must understand also a first, for these are two resurrections. Therefore, however many were not previously to rise in the first resurrection and to reign with Christ over the world, over all nations, will rise at the last trumpet, after the thousand years, that is, in the last resurrection, among the impious and sinners and perpetrators of various kinds. He rightly adds, saying: Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first anastasis: toward this one the second death has no power. For the second death is being thrown into hell.” (“Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John,” by Victorinus, comments on Revelation 20.)

There is a problem in the known texts of this very important ancient document. The text included in the widely circulated set titled “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, reads completely differenly. But the text there is one edited by Jerome, who was amillennial. The original text, from which the above is copied, along with Jerome’s letter in which he stated that he had revised it, can be found online at: http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/v/victorinus-of-petau.html

Again, Victorinus said:

“And in Matthew we read, that it is written Isaiah also and the rest of his colleagues broke the Sabbath —that that true and just Sabbath should be observed in the seventh millenary of years. Wherefore to those seven days the Lord attributed to each a thousand years; for thus went the warning: ‘In Thine eyes, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day.’ Therefore in the eyes of the Lord each thousand of years is ordained, for I find that the Lord’s eyes are seven. Wherefore, as I have narrated, that true Sabbath will be in the seventh millenary of years, when Christ with His elect shall reign.” (“On the Creation of the World,” by Victorinus, fifth paragraph.)

Commodianus, who is thought to have written between the years 240 and 260 A. D., said “Of the First Ressurection:”

“They shall come also who overcame cruel martyrdom under Antichrist, and they themselves live for the whole time, and receive blessings because they have suffered evil things; and they themselves marrying, beget for a thousand years. There are prepared all the revenues of the earth, because the earth renewed without end pours forth abundantly... he who is evil is hedged up in torment, for the sake of the nourishment of the righteous. But from the thousand years God will destroy all those evils.” (“The Instructions of Commodianus,” by Commodianus, chapter 24.)

Lactantius, who is thought to have written between the years 303-316 A.D., said, in speaking of “the Almighty”:

“But He, when He shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who have lived from the beginning, will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command... Then they who shall be alive in their bodies shall not die, but during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God; but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges... About the same time also the prince of the devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule in which righteousness shall reign in the world, so that he may contrive no evil against the people of God.” (“The Divine Institutes,” by Lactantius, chapter 72.)

And the "Epistle of Barnabas," whose true author and date are not known with certainty, but is thought to possibly have been written as early as 80-120 A.D., said:

“The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: ‘And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.’ Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, ‘He finished in six days.’ This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, will be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. ‘And He rested on the seventh day.’ This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, ‘Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart.’ If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter XV)

In addition to these, Jerome said that Apollinaris follows “this view.” (“Lives of Illustrious Men,” by Jerome, chapter XVIII.) And Eusebius reported that “a Bishop in Egypt” named Nepos, wrote a book titled “Refutation of Allegorists.”(“The Church History of Eusebius,” by Eusebius, Book VII, Chapter XXIV, paragraph 4) Eusebius went on to report that Dionysius said many thought this brook “proved beyond dispute that there will be a reign of Christ upon earth.” (“The Church History of Eusebius,” by Eusebius, Book VII, Chapter XXIV, paragraphs 1-2) and then further commented, “When I was in the district of Arsinoë, where, as you know, this doctrine has prevailed for a long time, so that schisms and apostasies of entire churches have resulted, I called together the presbyters and teachers of the brethren in the villages,—such brethren as wished being also present,—and I exhorted them to make a public examination of this question.” (“The Church History of Eusebius,” by Eusebius, Book VII, Chapter XXIV, paragraph 6.)

The last statement is proof that the doctrine of “a reign of Christ upon the earth” was not only taught, but “had prevailed for a long time” before the mid third century. (Dionysius is thought to have been Bishop of Alexandria from about 247-265.)
 
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Riberra

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We also have the "nations" and "wrath" and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18. You cannot have the judgment of the dead with a resurrection.
This occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
Do you agree that the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 13 will happen BEFORE the Coming of Jesus ?

The Judgment of the DEAD mentioned in Revelation 11:18 concern those who will be DEAD BEFORE THE 42 months reign of the Beast.

Revelation 11:18 is not the End of the story....the 42 months reign of the Beast Revelation 13 will come right after .

A special reward will be allowed to those who will not take the mark of the Beast Revelation 20:4-6
 
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BABerean2

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Do you agree that the 42 months reign of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 13 will happen BEFORE the Coming of Jesus ?

The Judgment of the DEAD mentioned in Revelation 11:18 concern those who will be DEAD BEFORE THE 42 months reign of the Beast.

Revelation 11:18 is not the End of the story....the 42 months reign of the Beast Revelation 13 will come right after .

A special reward will be allowed to those who will not take the mark of the Beast Revelation 20:4-6

Yes.

No, because the book is not in chronological order.
This has been proven multiple times.
One of the simplest examples is the return of Christ in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19.


The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Bible.
The text of Revelation 11:15 clearly states it is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever", and how could the text be any clearer?


The beginning of chapter 12 is a review of Church history, which includes the birth and death of Christ, as well as the fall of Satan.

.
 
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