The firmament of Genesis 1 assumes flat earth

Edison Trent

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I like your question here..."What if life out there is unfallen? What if Satan and his followers were cast to Earth and our Solar system?....What if he was not allowed to go to other star systems? Then there is no way the other planets and people out there could have been contaminated with Satans sin. Yeah. I believe Earth and out solar system is fallen but not the rest of creation.

Quite interesting, could be maybe when God made humans, satan was ok with all the other intelligent life forms, but looked at humans as something less then animals and satan would not have respect towards God for creating humans, so he got cast to the sol system, for reasons maybe of choice, either get over it accept all God's creations or go completely mad over it,
 
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Denadii

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Quite interesting, could be maybe when God made humans, satan was ok with all the other intelligent life forms, but looked at humans as something less then animals and satan would not have respect towards God for creating humans, so he got cast to the sol system, for reasons maybe of choice, either get over it accept all God's creations or go completely mad over it,
You do know of course that Satan and his horde of followers occupied other planets of our system? It is even a possibility he occupied the planet between Mars and Jupiter....Ok Well that planet is not there anymore. Its only rubble called the Asteroid Belt...It did leave massive craters on Mars, Phobos, one of Mars' moons and our moon and at least four large craters on our Earth... According to Bodes Law there should be a planet there but only rubble? Hmmmm Why was it destroyed?
Satan though hates us humans...agreed.....The why of it though.....God loves us..So Satan would automatically hate us....God created us to a position much higher than angels.....So Satan hates us....especially considering that he is an angel and is beneath our feet, positionally, in authority and in all other areas, Satan does not hold a candle to us.....So he hates us. He is totally powerless against us unless WE allow him to do something to us.
 
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Edison Trent

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You do know of course that Satan and his horde of followers occupied other planets of our system? It is even a possibility he occupied the planet between Mars and Jupiter....Ok Well that planet is not there anymore. Its only rubble called the Asteroid Belt...It did leave massive craters on Mars, Phobos, one of Mars' moons and our moon and at least four large craters on our Earth... According to Bodes Law there should be a planet there but only rubble? Hmmmm Why was it destroyed?
Satan though hates us humans...agreed.....The why of it though.....God loves us..So Satan would automatically hate us....God created us to a position much higher than angels.....So Satan hates us....especially considering that he is an angel and is beneath our feet, positionally, in authority and in all other areas, Satan does not hold a candle to us.....So he hates us. He is totally powerless against us unless WE allow him to do something to us.

It's a hypothesis the planet could have been destroyed by the brown dwarf that was the sun companion star called the nemesis.
 
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Dig4truth

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Ok, so let me get this right, it's gravity. The answer to everything is gravity. Why does one sock always disappear? Gravity. Etc...
You're not really asking difficult questions. You're befuddling yourself.

You say buoyancy works, but it doesn't unless there is gravity. Without gravity, there's nothing to prevent things from drifting apart into attenuated gas, and then space. There's no buoyancy involved. Ships whose hulls are breached sink because of gravity. Buoyancy merely counteracts gravity, to an extent.


There are other things that hold things together like magnetism or electromagnetism. Then there's Duct Tape, it can't fix stupid but it can muffle the sound! ; )
 
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Dig4truth

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You have suggested experiments a few times. Here is one you can do. Telescopes are very powerful things. With the Hubble Space Telescope, for example, we can see details of galaxies 100 million light years away. With a good strong backyard telescope we can easily see the craters and mountains of the moon, and we can easily see the rings of Saturn and the Moons of Jupiter and the Great Red Spot. We can easily see all of these things hundreds of thousands or millions of miles away in great detail.

So, get yourself a good strong optical telescope and go look at the Moon, the Rings, the Great Red Spot.
Go show yourself directly how well that you can see things at tremendous distances.

Now go up on the roof of your house and look around your range of vision, as far as you can see in any direction along the land until your vision is blocked by a tree, a hill, a mountain, a building. Now peer through your telescope at that farthest object. The farthest I can see from my house, other than looking straight up, is less than a quarter of a mile, because I live in tree-tangled Connecticut, where everything is beneath the trees and the sky is only visible above the trees, about 45 degrees off the ground. I can see the trunks and the big boughs of those trees a quarter mile away. I cannot distinguish the individual leaves. But if I pointed my strong telescope at them, I could make out the leaves and the birds easily.

You do the same, to demonstrate that at short distances you can see everything pretty plainly with your telescope.

Now take a vacation. Go out West, to the Grand Canyon. Go up on a rocky promontory and look over at the other rim, a mile or more away. Now look up the Canyon at the crack and it winds off to the North and East or South and West. The air is clear, the desert is mostly flat. From your little elevation, you can see many, many miles, to the mountains and mesas in the distance. Now point your telescope at those things in the distance: they are sharp and clear. You can make out the boulders. You can see that which is 15 miles away. If you go up a mountain, you can see that which is 25 or 30 miles away. With the telescope, in clear air, you can see everything in the range of vision clearly with your telescope. Nothing is faded or fuzzy. You have only a small sight picture through the tube, but what you see, you see clearly.

From the mountain top you can look through your telescope and see very clearly the houses that are 25 miles away. You can see their windowframes and lightbulbs at dusk.

Now come back down the mountain to the foot and look down down the same sightline. You cannot see the house, or its lights, even through your telescope. What you see is some piece of ground between here and there. If you had the Hubble Space Telescope, you could not see the house - because it is blocked by the earth.

That is the effect of the curvature of the earth. But, of course, as we have said before, the hard ground doesn't conform to the shape of the earth. Mountains rise up, uplands are thrust up. That blockage may not be the curvature of the earth at all, it may just be the result of seismic activity moving pieces of the earth's crust around.

Now take your telescope and go to the ocean beside a seaport on a sunny and clear day. Set yourself up next to a lifeguard tower that is unoccupied. Pick a ship leaving port and focus your telescope on the name on the stern, the letters and the sternlight and the flag that it bears. As it nears the horizon, watch it intently through your telescope. You can still read the letters and see the flag. They do not disappear into the haze. But you see it all getting lower and lower in the water, and you see the individual waves moving up next to it and past it. And then you can't see the letters any more, because the ship has followed the curve of the earth and that part has dipped below the horizon. You can still see the stack and the upper superstructure, but not the name or the colors on the stern.

Now go climb the lifeguard station with your telescope and point it right at the stern. Presto - you can see the name and the flag again, perfectly clearly. Keep watching, and they will sink below the waves again.

It is not a matter of visual acuity failing or the ship no longer being visible through the air. As you noted, you can still see it clearly with a telescope. But then you can't - because it went below the horizon because of the earth's curvature. If you had the Hubble Space Telescope and the earth was flat, you could see the coast of France from Cape Cod. You can't. That's because the earth is round.

You can conduct this experiment yourself, with telescope or binoculars, as many hundreds of times as you like, and you will always see the same thing.

I HAVE conducted that very experiment, as part of my work at sea, watching ships rise from over the horizon until I could identify them and their heading, and watching them sink back over the horizon steaming away. In the middle of the ocean on a four hour watch there is not a great deal to do, so another ship is a thing to look at it, so you do, and you see just exactly what I have described, over and over again.

These are practical, real world experiments you can do to satisfy yourself that yes, the world is in fact round, and no, the atmosphere does not so devour light that you can't see past 10 miles or so. That's certainly not true. You can see stars trillions of miles away, and you can see a light on a ship as far as you have a line of sight to it. If you go up in a helicopter, the distance to the horizon extends and you can see farther. If it is clear, and there is a light, you can always see the light.

It is true that at the horizon, the atmosphere seems to refract the light and make things bigger. You're looking through a lot more air molecules that lens it when something is right at the horizon than when something is above.

You've seen the big rising sun get small, the big rising moon get small as they rise off the horizon, and the sun get bigger and bigger until its finally huge as it sinks into the sea. We have all seen this. Some have asserted that it's an optical illusion. That is not true. You can measure the arclengths of the horizon that the sun or moon takes up as it settles into the water, and compare it to the arclengths when it is high in the sky. The setting sun doesn't just LOOK bigger, it IS bigger, MUCH bigger.

Again, these are simple tests you can do yourself to satisfy your mind, if you really want to.


I have used my telescope to do many of these things.


But you mentioned seeing some things some 30 miles away. If both the viewer and the object are on the same sea level (notice it is not "sea curvature") then there should be about 500' of curvature between the two. Ive accounted for the height of the person above sea level.
 
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Vicomte13

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Ok, so let me get this right, it's gravity. The answer to everything is gravity. Why does one sock always disappear? Gravity. Etc...



There are other things that hold things together like magnetism or electromagnetism. Then there's Duct Tape, it can't fix stupid but it can muffle the sound! ; )
The answer to EVERYTHING isn’t gravity. The answer to EVERYTHING is “42”, or so I’ve heard. But gravity is the answer to many of the things of which we have been speaking.
 
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Denadii

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View attachment 212203


I have used my telescope to do many of these things.


But you mentioned seeing some things some 30 miles away. If both the viewer and the object are on the same sea level (notice it is not "sea curvature") then there should be about 500' of curvature between the two. Ive accounted for the height of the person above sea level.
Oh! What an awesome telescope!
 
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I like your question here..."What if life out there is unfallen? What if Satan and his followers were cast to Earth and our Solar system?....What if he was not allowed to go to other star systems? Then there is no way the other planets and people out there could have been contaminated with Satans sin. Yeah. I believe Earth and out solar system is fallen but not the rest of creation.

Oh, I think even mars and venus are innocent, unfallen - so far. The moon? Well, there aren't any fallen creatures there right now . . . but there have been a very few . . . well, I'm sure the rocks are innocent.
 
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Denadii

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Oh, I think even mars and venus are innocent, unfallen - so far. The moon? Well, there aren't any fallen creatures there right now . . . but there have been a very few . . . well, I'm sure the rocks are innocent.
Ok Not Mars though...It was populated by 'Them'!
 
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Vicomte13

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if earth was proven to be flat, what difference would it make? would all the teachings of Jesus change? i dont get the flat earth, why it matters.

It matters because of the impact on something else.

If the earth really is flat, then the entirety of science is overthrown and shown to be a lie. All of the physics derived from astronomy and rotations about stars and the like is overthrown. What is more, our teachings about the world themselves are revealed to be an intentional, massive lie - meaning that literally nothing ever said by any authority or teacher can be trusted as being true. Everything is a lie.

That is the implication of flat earth. The entirety of science collapses as a lie. So do all of our institutions: the complete erasure of all trust in all teachers, scientists, everything.

But that's not why flat earth is brought up. Rather, it is an indirect argument in the other direction.

Nobody really argues for a flat earth. There is no human being on earth, not a single one, who actually believes in a flat earth. There are babies and severely handicapped who have never thought about such things, but everybody who has, has been taught by some other person that the world is round. This, like the existence of gravity (fall down, go boom!), or that water quenches thirst, is one of the pieces of universal human knowledge.

To attack the round earth is to be perverse - and to be a liar. Nobody who espouses flat earth theory really believes it. None would swear under oath on a lie detector that they believed it if there were any consequences, because there is not one single human being with a beating heart in existence who really believes it.

So, why does it get brought up, then?

Because to many, many people, probably most people, the origins of life and of the earth itself, are matters of ultimate religious importance, for very simple and straightforward reasons: we live in creation - which means somebody created it. Unless, of course, it all created itself through immutable natural processes, in which case there is no Creator at all. If there is a Creator, there is an intelligent overmind, and all of the time, effort and money spent on appeasing or understanding or communicating with, the overmind, is worth it - and the power and influence over other human beings, and the accumulation of wealth and authority of those devoted to communication with God, is inevitable and acceptable.

But if there isn't, then religion is a monstrous fraud in its entirety, all of the death engendered by religion over the ages is all just psychopathic murder, and religion is a gargantuan waste of real resources in the service of a millennial delusion. All of the power and authority accumulated by men devoted to trying to contact the figment of the human imagination called "God" is the product of delusion and fraud, and the concentration of wealth in religious buildings and efforts is the willful squandering of resources that could be used to better the lot of mankind.

The origins of the world, and of life, matter a great deal. That life originated with a Creator God is an existentially necessary belief for religion to continue to exist at all.

The evolution of species provides a naturalistic explanation for the different species, but abiogenesis, the spontaneous generation of life from non-living things, without intelligent intervention by any God - this renders God and religion obsolete.

We have all heard Occam's Razor paraphrased as "The simplest explanation is the best." What William of Ockham actually said was "We should not multiply entities unnecessarily." In other words, we should not ascribe to some new force that which can be explained by a known force.

So, if life can arise spontaneously through mindless chemical processes from the primordial soup, and continue spontaneously through the chemical process of evolution, then it is unreasonable to postulate the existence of a second entity - God - to explain life, because life generated itself and propagates itself. No additional entity is necessary, and therefore, the superfluous additional entity very probably does not exist.

The flat earth is ridiculous to everybody.

To those who believe in abiogenesis and evolution, those two things have been established as solid facts that no reasonable person can contest any longer. To contest abiogenesis and evolution, to such people, is to proclaim the flat earth. We know the earth isn't flat, and we know that species evolved, and people who oppose evolution are just as patently ridiculous as flat earthers - functionally, they are the same thing.

THAT is the argument.

Now, abiogenesis and evolution do NOT perforce destroy the existence of God at all. THAT is simple-mindedness by the atheists. For why does the natural law that gives rise to abiogenesis and evolution itself exist, and indeed exist out of nothing? It doesn't. The Catholic is quite comfortable with abiogenesis and evolution of species. God still created everything, because God is the creator of the natural law by which this chemistry works.

That's simple and obvious, to Catholics, because it follows logically back to the point where science fails (there is nothing to observe on which to form conclusions, and God is the originator). But Catholics are not Sola Scripturalists. The Catholic religion is not shaken by the fact that abiogenesis and evolution over eons contradicts Genesis 1 in many ways. Catholics don't think that Genesis 1 is history, they think it is allegoric poetry, written by men, carrying the intuitive truth that God is ultimately the creator of everything. It doesn't matter to the Catholic that the poetry is mythical, and that the real way that animals and man came about was not the poetic way described in genesis, but through things struggling forth as bacteria out of the primordial soup.

To the Protestant, however, there is danger here, particularly to the fundamentalist Sola Scripturalist. For to him, the Bible is the inerrant perfect word of God, and every word must not be literally true. To call Genesis 1 an allegory that isn't literally true is to say that it is a lie, and if Genesis 1, or any other part of the Bible is not strictly true, then it's all a lie and the whole of religion itself shatters like glass. Therefore, the most disciplined, consistent and vocal opponents of evolution and abiogenesis are fundamentalist Protestants. For if abiogenesis and evolution are true, the Bible is a lie and their religion is false. Everything is at stake in this argument.

Both the Protestants know this, but also their adversaries, the scientific atheists know it too. So the invocation of "flat earth" is a way to attack Fundamentalist Christians directly as ridiculous and absurd people... because EVERYBODY knows that the earth is not flat, and "everybody knows" that abiogenesis and evolution stand on the same scientific ground as the round earth.

So, that's why it matters, Jaybird88. That's what is at stake, and why the flat earth gets brought up.
 
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Denadii

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if earth was proven to be flat, what difference would it make? would all the teachings of Jesus change? i dont get the flat earth, why it matters.
If Earth turns out to be flat....Then you could fall off the edge...If its a ball you can't. LOL
 
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jaybird88

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It matters because of the impact on something else.

If the earth really is flat, then the entirety of science is overthrown and shown to be a lie. All of the physics derived from astronomy and rotations about stars and the like is overthrown. What is more, our teachings about the world themselves are revealed to be an intentional, massive lie - meaning that literally nothing ever said by any authority or teacher can be trusted as being true. Everything is a lie.

That is the implication of flat earth. The entirety of science collapses as a lie. So do all of our institutions: the complete erasure of all trust in all teachers, scientists, everything.

But that's not why flat earth is brought up. Rather, it is an indirect argument in the other direction.

Nobody really argues for a flat earth. There is no human being on earth, not a single one, who actually believes in a flat earth. There are babies and severely handicapped who have never thought about such things, but everybody who has, has been taught by some other person that the world is round. This, like the existence of gravity (fall down, go boom!), or that water quenches thirst, is one of the pieces of universal human knowledge.

To attack the round earth is to be perverse - and to be a liar. Nobody who espouses flat earth theory really believes it. None would swear under oath on a lie detector that they believed it if there were any consequences, because there is not one single human being with a beating heart in existence who really believes it.

So, why does it get brought up, then?

Because to many, many people, probably most people, the origins of life and of the earth itself, are matters of ultimate religious importance, for very simple and straightforward reasons: we live in creation - which means somebody created it. Unless, of course, it all created itself through immutable natural processes, in which case there is no Creator at all. If there is a Creator, there is an intelligent overmind, and all of the time, effort and money spent on appeasing or understanding or communicating with, the overmind, is worth it - and the power and influence over other human beings, and the accumulation of wealth and authority of those devoted to communication with God, is inevitable and acceptable.

But if there isn't, then religion is a monstrous fraud in its entirety, all of the death engendered by religion over the ages is all just psychopathic murder, and religion is a gargantuan waste of real resources in the service of a millennial delusion. All of the power and authority accumulated by men devoted to trying to contact the figment of the human imagination called "God" is the product of delusion and fraud, and the concentration of wealth in religious buildings and efforts is the willful squandering of resources that could be used to better the lot of mankind.

The origins of the world, and of life, matter a great deal. That life originated with a Creator God is an existentially necessary belief for religion to continue to exist at all.

The evolution of species provides a naturalistic explanation for the different species, but abiogenesis, the spontaneous generation of life from non-living things, without intelligent intervention by any God - this renders God and religion obsolete.

We have all heard Occam's Razor paraphrased as "The simplest explanation is the best." What William of Ockham actually said was "We should not multiply entities unnecessarily." In other words, we should not ascribe to some new force that which can be explained by a known force.

So, if life can arise spontaneously through mindless chemical processes from the primordial soup, and continue spontaneously through the chemical process of evolution, then it is unreasonable to postulate the existence of a second entity - God - to explain life, because life generated itself and propagates itself. No additional entity is necessary, and therefore, the superfluous additional entity very probably does not exist.

The flat earth is ridiculous to everybody.

To those who believe in abiogenesis and evolution, those two things have been established as solid facts that no reasonable person can contest any longer. To contest abiogenesis and evolution, to such people, is to proclaim the flat earth. We know the earth isn't flat, and we know that species evolved, and people who oppose evolution are just as patently ridiculous as flat earthers - functionally, they are the same thing.

THAT is the argument.

Now, abiogenesis and evolution do NOT perforce destroy the existence of God at all. THAT is simple-mindedness by the atheists. For why does the natural law that gives rise to abiogenesis and evolution itself exist, and indeed exist out of nothing? It doesn't. The Catholic is quite comfortable with abiogenesis and evolution of species. God still created everything, because God is the creator of the natural law by which this chemistry works.

That's simple and obvious, to Catholics, because it follows logically back to the point where science fails (there is nothing to observe on which to form conclusions, and God is the originator). But Catholics are not Sola Scripturalists. The Catholic religion is not shaken by the fact that abiogenesis and evolution over eons contradicts Genesis 1 in many ways. Catholics don't think that Genesis 1 is history, they think it is allegoric poetry, written by men, carrying the intuitive truth that God is ultimately the creator of everything. It doesn't matter to the Catholic that the poetry is mythical, and that the real way that animals and man came about was not the poetic way described in genesis, but through things struggling forth as bacteria out of the primordial soup.

To the Protestant, however, there is danger here, particularly to the fundamentalist Sola Scripturalist. For to him, the Bible is the inerrant perfect word of God, and every word must not be literally true. To call Genesis 1 an allegory that isn't literally true is to say that it is a lie, and if Genesis 1, or any other part of the Bible is not strictly true, then it's all a lie and the whole of religion itself shatters like glass. Therefore, the most disciplined, consistent and vocal opponents of evolution and abiogenesis are fundamentalist Protestants. For if abiogenesis and evolution are true, the Bible is a lie and their religion is false. Everything is at stake in this argument.

Both the Protestants know this, but also their adversaries, the scientific atheists know it too. So the invocation of "flat earth" is a way to attack Fundamentalist Christians directly as ridiculous and absurd people... because EVERYBODY knows that the earth is not flat, and "everybody knows" that abiogenesis and evolution stand on the same scientific ground as the round earth.

So, that's why it matters, Jaybird88. That's what is at stake, and why the flat earth gets brought up.
my fault, i should have been more specific. i meant what does flat earth have to do with ones spirituality?
what biblical teaching does it undo? i see post like this in theology forums all the time.
 
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Dig4truth

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If Earth turns out to be flat....Then you could fall off the edge...If its a ball you can't. LOL


That's absurd. There is an ice wall hundreds of feet tall that prevents this from happening according to the FE theory.

That would be equivalent to saying that if I were on the bottom of the globe I would drop off.

Understanding the other's position is the first step in initiating an informative discourse.

One misunderstanding assumes that there is no boundary and the other assumes that there's no gravity, among many other assumptions.

Like I said, understanding the other's position is the first step for a meaningful debate.
 
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SeventyOne

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if earth was proven to be flat, what difference would it make? would all the teachings of Jesus change? i dont get the flat earth, why it matters.

Because it would end the whole evolution/panspermia/alien paradigm right in it's tracks and demonstrate deliberate design over billions of years of accidents.
 
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jaybird88

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Because it would end the whole evolution/panspermia/alien paradigm right in it's tracks and demonstrate deliberate design over billions of years of accidents.
i dont see how a flat earth could prove anything, just give rise to more theories. as it is now common sense tells us all these things didnt just happen on its own. if you unload a truck load of building material, i dont care how long it sits there, the house will not build itself, there has to be a builder.
 
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