Was Gods punishing the Jews because in the holocaust because they killed? Jesus

[Roseonathorn]

Dictators seek someone to kill. Who sits in their heart? Not God. So they probably choose someone that God loves or someone that loves God. Now Stalin was He any different? He sent people to die too. I believe it was many christians as well then or just anybody that was spoken ill of.

 

[Barney]

Did the Holocaust actually happen? I wasn't there, so I don't know. It has been said that to the victors comes the right to rewrite history. There are many who do not believe the holocaust occurred. We are fed so many lies and propaganda, I don't know what to believe. However, I do believe the Bible. And I see no reason for God to punish the Jews since they all had been expelled from Canaan. The destruction of the Temple and the Diaspora are "punishment" enough.

If something is true, criticism would be met with proof, not censorship.

 

[Dave-W]

Aborted babies die without sin and are very probably the highest of all people in the Kingdom of God.

Really? They never lived out the Plan HE had for them in reaching this fallen world.

The christian walk is not so much about "personal holiness;" rather it is about walking out HIS will for us. Personal holiness is what the Pharisees were obsessed with, and look where it got them.

 

[Dave-W]

Did the Holocaust actually happen? I wasn't there, so I don't know.

Oh great. Another holocaust denier.
Zolton Ferency warned me about you guys. (and I did not believe him at the time)

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Maybe. Some (and probably many) of the Jews saw Hitler as a prophet sent by God to punish them.

Hitler himself was *quite* proficient of the Gospel and ironically, also regarded himself as a Christian prophet (although he did not acknowledge it publicly but only to close officers and friends). The Mein Kampf told partly about it.

Hitler used the church to teach his ideology. He was into the occult and had mediums and spiritist on his staff. No Christian would ever do this. He followed Helena Blovatski and many others.

Ws the holocaust Gods punishment of the Jews??

Many say that because of the Jews rejecting Jesus and insist he be crucified that God punished them in the Holocaust (I do not believe this but welcome comments)

Just as many gentiles died in Hitler's death camps, mainly Christians as Jews did, so then God was killing gentiles and not just Jews explain that. Explain that Tony

Records show that at least of the six million Jewish people murdered in the death camps of which another 7 million of them were gentiles

I believe that there is a lack of understanding of Jesus' death. He died for our sins, including that of the Jewish people. In fact, the Jews are his special people the people of the Book so why on earth would God sit back and allow all of his beloved people to be murdered by a beast like Hitler Without Jesus's death there would be no resurrection. Without his death, there's no new covenant. It doesn't matter who God used to facilitate Jesus' death. It was ordained and to say that God then punishes the people he ordained to kill Jesus in the most horrific way is to give God the character of Satan and not that of a holy merciful Almighty God

Look at it this way, if you murder someone and 2000 years later all your ancestors, who know nothing about you or how you lived your life, are put to death in a most hideous way possible, for something you did 2000 years ago, is that just and fair?

Satan was not created evil, in Ezekiel, God says of him you were perfect in all your ways until sin was found in you.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

Why did God have to wait until 1945 years almost 2000 years after Jesus death on the cross, and only then punish the Jews woman, such as little children, babies, men old men and old woman, who knew nothing about Jesus and could not be held accountable for a sin done by their ancestors 2000 years ago.

Is that the just God of the Bible, no it is more like Satan than God to murder people for no reason at all? A just God would have killed those living at the time or just after the time, who knew about Jesus and their responsibility for his crucifixion

Well then God had it wrong seeing as Christ was crucified by the Romans. Not to mentioned according to the Bible Christ's sole purpose on Earth was to live a sin free life and die for the sins of all mankind so it seems sort of silly to punish anyone for what was supposed to happen

Actually, both the Jews and Romans are responsible for the crucifixion of Christ. You can't just put the blame on one party. The Romans were the one to physically perform the acts of abuse on Christ, but devout followers of Judaism had a heavy influence on Christ's death

The fact is that God sent Jesus to die for humanities sins so that they through his spilled Blood they could be forgiven their sins. Makes no sense for him to have sent punishment upon the Jews when God himself sent Christ here to die for all. We are all equally guilty of Jesus’s death on the cross, 50% gentile namely the Romans and the other 505 Jews.

Neither Jews nor Christian ideals produced the Holocaust. Those murders were generated by the same perversion of human nature that the Holy Scriptures depict, beginning in the Book of Genesis. Cain turned on his own brother and became the first murderer.

And while the Jewish people have been singled out more often for genocide than any other people, they are by no means the only group of people to be methodically murdered. Consider the “ethnic cleansing,” the systematic rape and murder of the Bosnian people perpetrated in the 1990s. No, genocide neither began nor ended with Hitler and the Jewish people.

However, if Jesus' and his disciples' claims are true, that he came to die for the wrongdoing of all humanity both Jews and Gentiles Then all of us have a part in the death of Jesus, collectively and individually. Not a message most of us want to hear, but one that was articulated even before the time of Jesus, by the prophet Isaiah, who wrote of one who would be ". “pierced through for our transgressions” “crushed for our iniquities” the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him and by His scourging we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5).

Any comments

HI I have read the 4 pages of comments and think that when we look at the prophecy of the Bible this whole series of events from70 AD up through history to WW2 Germany and to today we can see the methods God used to fulfill His word. The Bible claims God can foretell the future in advance. He has a promised destiny for Israel. On this many people disagree and claim God has cast off Israel and the church is now Israel. I can demonstrate that the law of the prophets is that a prophet must be 100% right or he is a false prophet. So if the Bible predicted Israel being scattered into all the nations and then regathered into the land and then many more specific items leading up the Jesus coming and Israel being saved at the onset of the 1000 year millennial kingdom we could look and see if these events fit the bill.
You see it is one thing to predict something being destroyed but quite another with much more difficulty to declare that a nation will be erased and then return. The events of 70AD and then one last revolt some 60 years later did scatter the nation into all the world. The events of the Holocaust brought sympathy towards Israel and when WW2 was over the newly created UN established Israel as a nation. This was 30 years after the Balfour declaration raising the idea of support for Zionism. It is interesting to note that Rothchilds NWO types did create much of the money and support for Zionism and yet these people are Luciferian. It would seem to me that the UN is the organization that will gain global authority for the tribulation and that is odd that it would create Israel and since its creation over 1/3 of all UN resolutions have been to condemn Israel. It seems that Satan is actually trying to commit the abomination of desolation and is compelled like Judas to go do quickly what he must do.
Here is a small synopsis of some prophecy that show these events are related and have a much greater destiny. In Duet 4 God says in the latter days Israel will be scattered into all nations and be in distress and God would remember the covenant.
Duet 4 “When you beget children and grandchildren and have grown old in the land, and act corruptly and make a carved image in the form of anything, and do evil in the sight of the LORD your God to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the LORD will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the LORD your God and obey His voice 31 (for the LORD your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

Nahum 5 And I said: “I pray, LORD God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You[fn] and observe Your[fn] commandments, 6 please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned. 7 We have acted very corruptly against You, and have not kept the commandments, the statutes, nor the ordinances which You commanded Your servant Moses. 8 Remember, I pray, the word that You commanded Your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations;[fn] 9 but if you return to Me, and keep My commandments and do them, though some of you were cast out to the farthest part of the heavens, yet I will gather them from there, and bring them to the place which I have chosen as a dwelling for My name.’

Duet 30 you should also read read 28 but again God promises to bring them back but this time he includes the promise of circumcising their hearts which point directly to Ezekiel which speaks of the dead bones shall live and have a heart of stone but God will give them a heart of flesh.

“Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God drives you, 2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. 4 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. 5 Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Ezekiel 36 brings it all together

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God

I can show you many many more that get to the specific events of what will happen in the tribulation and up through the millennium. If any wants a few more contact me.

 

[Dave-W]

Ws the holocaust Gods punishment of the Jews??

Not at all. It was just another attempt by the devil to prevent the 2nd coming of the Messiah. He tried to stop the first coming (remember Herod killing the infants around Bethlehem?) which did not work; and God turned what the enemy meant for harm to HIS good: bring Jews back into the Land of Israel after 1800 years.

Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you [Jews in Jerusalem] will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Zechariah 14:4
In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.​

 

[AlexDTX]

I wasn't there either, but many other people were, and they left records. There are photographs of the camps. Some of the prisoners wrote books -- Elie Wiesel, Corrie ten Boom, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Victor Frankl. There are memorials and museums at the sites of some of the former camps in Europe. There are memorials in Germany itself. Many of the prison survivors have now died of old age, but they have living family members who can tell their story. There is no reasonable doubt that the Holocaust occurred.

This isn't like trying to figure out a puzzle of ancient history, like who the Druids really were or whether there was a real King Arthur. The Holocaust happened less than a hundred years ago, in a time of widespread literacy, record-keeping, and photography. The Holocaust was a thoroughly documented event.

Documents can lie. As I said, I don't know, but neither do I trust the international bankers who are predominately Jewish. That is not to say I dislike Jews, but the international cabal who is moving us towards global government. Isn't it noteworthy that no one can buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast? Who controls finances? Isn't it also noteworthy that all the world will come against Israel? Nothing happens in a vacuum. There must be some legitimate reason. In fact, the history of the Jewish people is one of being expelled from one country after another. No one is expelled unless there is some reason. No, I doubt the Holocaust.

As I said, I only trust the Bible. And this thread poses a question on the assumption that the event was true. Only God knows the truth.

 

[AlexDTX]

If something is true, criticism would be met with proof, not censorship.

Fair enough. Where is the censorship?

 

[Barney]

No... first of all, not all Jews despised Yeshua.

The term for a Jews who accepts Jesus is "Christian", not "Jew".

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;

Those Jews were zealous (actually, Zealots) for the law, including temple sacrifice. It begs the question, what is it they have believed? Maybe the were Christians, but the context proves these Zealots still kept the Jewish religion, hence James called them Jews. The dual-religion of Judaism and Christianity existed to some degree in the first century, because of a lack of understanding of Christianity (the didn't have an NT Bible to study). But, that dual religion doesn't exist today because every Christian knows that Christians don't sacrifice animals at the temple, and there's no one today offering sacrifices at the temple

Secondly, there is a comment in the Talmud that might better depict punishment. When the Temple was destroyed, 40 years after the death of Yeshua, a rabbi commented that he wondered if they had wronged somebody a generation ago to bring upon such disaster (paraphrased).

I don't trust your paraphrase. Please provide a quote from the Talmud.

 

[Barney]

Fair enough. Where is the censorship?

If something is true, criticism is met with proof, not with people playing dumb. Use Google, if you want to know where. And, Political Correctness accomplishes the same thing in America, where Political Correctness has force.

 

[Barney]

Well of course, if you are genetically a scion of Judah, you remain Jewish 'physically', as Paul termed it.

By "physically" a Jew, Paul was referring to circumcision, not scion.

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Paul

Am I the only one here who has read the Bible?

 

[majj27]

If something is true, criticism is met with proof, not with people playing dumb. Use Google, if you want to know where. And, Political Correctness accomplishes the same thing in America, where Political Correctness has force.

We have proof of the Holocaust and the tyranny of Hitler's regime. Piles, and piles of it. Reams of documents from the Nazi government itself. Survivors liberated from camps. Mass graves. Gold teeth pulled from the skulls of those who were systematically exterminated in order to fuel the Nazi war industry.

If this mountain of researched, corroborated, and verified evidence isn't proof, then I don't know what to tell you, man. At that point, reality becomes fiction.

 

[Vicomte13]

Really? They never lived out the Plan HE had for them in reaching this fallen world.

The christian walk is not so much about "personal holiness;" rather it is about walking out HIS will for us. Personal holiness is what the Pharisees were obsessed with, and look where it got them.

To quote Dave-W: "He never allows anything that is not used by Him for some purpose, even the artillery shell landing on a grade school."

 

[Barney]

We have proof of the Holocaust and the tyranny of Hitler's regime. Piles, and piles of it. Reams of documents from the Nazi government itself. Survivors liberated from camps. Mass graves. Gold teeth pulled from the skulls of those who were systematically exterminated in order to fuel the Nazi war industry.

If this mountain of researched, corroborated, and verified evidence isn't proof, then I don't know what to tell you, man. At that point, reality becomes fiction.

Doesn't it concern you that you can't come up with anything of substance? Reams of documents from the nazi government itself? I'm sure there's no nazi records of six million jews killed by the nazis. Can you support "reams of documents" prove the Holocaust?

Allow me to be reasonable. Nazi Germany persecuted Jews. The persecution caused many Jews to flee Germany, or conceal their Jewishness, before any the time of the Holocaust. When things got real bad (in the middle of a desperate war, when countries start acting desperate) and Jews were being rounded up and put into camps, many prisoners, Jews and non-Jews alike, died because of the harsh conditions of the camps, not because of a holocaust.

Your nazi documents show the persecution and imprisonment of some Jews, not the holocaust. Your mass graves shows prisoners, jew and non-Jew, died in the prison camps, but not in the holocaust.

Show me six million Jews were executed by Germany. Even the most pro-Holocaust propagandists put the number of Jews in Germany before the Holocaust at only about 500 thousand. (Yes, I know that Jews from outside of Germany were arrested, but I'm trying to give you some perspective.) 27,000 thousand (27 million) citizens of the Soviet Union died in WWII

Your case isn't so strong that no one should dispute it. Your case is so weak that you can't allow anyone to dispute it. Also, everyone who evokes the holocaust does so only be be inflammatory, not because of any relevancy.

 

[Vicomte13]

Doesn't it concern you that you can't come up with anything of substance?

Well, I knew two older Jewish ladies, one the grandmother of a friend, the other the mother of a friend, both of whom had numbers tattooed on their arms from the German concentration camps, so I'd call that very substantial proof. I have no reason to believe that either of them were lying to my face.

 

[Ken Rank]

The term for a Jews who accepts Jesus is "Christian", not "Jew".

No, you are applying definitions from much later in time. Yeshua was Jewish and since he returns as the Lion of the TRIBE of JEWDAH.... then he didn't cease being Jewish nor did he come to create a new religion. He came to call a people back into the proper walk within the everlasting covenant.

As for Acts 21:20... that is the Church of Jerusalem being spoken of, historically accepted to be headed up by James. They continued keeping the Law because Yeshua didn't come to do away God's commandments.. he came to do away with the curse of sin and death, the punishment that the Law of God points to. "Maybe they were Christians???" Really... maybe? It says they believed on him as messiah and you judge them with a maybe? Sweet... I won't bother addressing the rest, there is no need. You'll pick this and anything else I say apart and expect me to reply and back and forth we go and nobody is edified. Saving each other the time... be well.

 

[Barney]

Well, I knew two older Jewish ladies, one the grandmother of a friend, the other the mother of a friend, both of whom had numbers tattooed on their arms from the German concentration camps, so I'd call that very substantial proof. I have no reason to believe that either of them were lying to my face.

Prisoners got tattoos. That doesn't show Germany executed six million Jews. You have proof that Germany existed, therefor ten trillion Mexicans were killed in Nazi Germany. That's your logic.

 

[Barney]

No, you are applying definitions from much later in time. Yeshua was Jewish and since he returns as the Lion of the TRIBE of JEWDAH.... then he didn't cease being Jewish nor did he come to create a new religion. He came to call a people back into the proper walk within the everlasting covenant.

When people use the word Jew, they do so in the context of a much later time. If Jews define the terms, then Jews are not Christians. Even in the Bible, when "Jew" meant something else than now, Jesus and his followers were treated very distinctly from Jews. And, on the very rare occasion the term Jew is applied to a Christian in the Bible, that circumcised person had kept the temple sacrifice. They were holding on to two religions.

Jesus didn't come to establish a new religion, but he did come to establish a new covenant, which we might as well call a different religion.

As for Acts 21:20... that is the Church of Jerusalem being spoken of, historically accepted to be headed up by James. They continued keeping the Law because Yeshua didn't come to do away God's commandments.. he came to do away with the curse of sin and death, the punishment that the Law of God points to. "Maybe they were Christians???" Really... maybe? It says they believed on him as messiah and you judge them with a maybe? Sweet... I won't bother addressing the rest, there is no need. You'll pick this and anything else I say apart and expect me to reply and back and forth we go and nobody is edified. Saving each other the time... be well.

Are you missing the part about temple sacrifice? Hello.

There is no animal sacrifice in Christianity, because Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial law with his perfect sacrifice.

 

[Ken Rank]

When people use the word Jew, they do so in the context of a much later time. If Jews define the terms, then Jews are not Christians. Even in the Bible, when "Jew" meant something else than now, Jesus and his followers were treated very distinctly from Jews. And, on the very rare occasion the term Jew is applied to a Christian in the Bible, that circumcised person had kept the temple sacrifice. They were holding on to two religions.

Jesus didn't come to establish a new religion, but he did come to establish a new covenant, which we might as well call a different religion.

Are you missing the part about temple sacrifice? Hello.

There is no animal sacrifice in Christianity, because Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial law with his perfect sacrifice.

Paul made a sacrifice in Acts. And unless you want to take the position that he was BOLD about the law in some places, and a milquetoast wimp about it when angry Jews came by... then you have a need to reconcile that. Perhaps you might start with Paul did a sacrifice and we don't see any more because the Temple was destroyed.

As for Yeshua being treated differently... while I can make the point that there would become persecution... he (and the early disciples) STILL went into the synagogues and Temple, and Yeshua even ate lunch one day in the school of the letter of the law Pharisaical sect (there was a spirit of the law sect as well). So they let him in the synagogues, into Beit Shammai... but he was different in the way you are trying to say?

As for new covenant... try renewed... chadashah in Jer. 31:31 is the verb chadash which means 'to renew' being used as an adjective to describe covenant. In the Greek (Heb. 8:8) it is kainos which means to renew or make fresh... another word, nehos, means brand new. It is the everlasting covenant (Psalms 105:8-10) renewed both because God called it everlasting and because the Hebrew and Greek suggest renewed.

No sense in going further... we won't agree on pretty much anything above Yeshua gave his life, raised in 3 days, and ascended to the Father's right hand. And at least, that makes us brothers. So shalom and be blessed.

 

[majj27]

Doesn't it concern you that you can't come up with anything of substance? Reams of documents from the nazi government itself? I'm sure there's no nazi records of six million jews killed by the nazis. Can you support "reams of documents" prove the Holocaust?

Adolf Eichmann was pretty sure of it. Considering he was one of the architects, should we assume he was just making it up for giggles?

Show me six million Jews were executed by Germany. Even the most pro-Holocaust propagandists put the number of Jews in Germany before the Holocaust at only about 500 thousand. (Yes, I know that Jews from outside of Germany were arrested, but I'm trying to give you some perspective.) 27,000 thousand (27 million) citizens of the Soviet Union died in WWII

According to Wolfgang Benz, historian and researcher, here are the numbers. Please keep in mind these numbers were compiled after the opening of Eastern European government archives in the 1990s, so they include information previously non-verified in Western research. His numbers have yet to be challenged with any verifiable accuracy.

Jews killed by the Nazi Regime:
German: 144,000
Poland: 2,700,000
Soviet Union: 2,100,000
Hungary: 559,250

There are a half-dozen nations with "only" 50,000-100,000 Jews killed from each one.

Your case isn't so strong that no one should dispute it. Your case is so weak that you can't allow anyone to dispute it. Also, everyone who evokes the holocaust does so only be be inflammatory, not because of any relevancy.

It's not "my case". It's the research and records that have been compiled by the US Army, German researchers, British and American Intelligence, the Polish Interior Ministry, and many, many others. If you can find any evidence otherwise, feel free to present it.

Also, if Holocaust is an irrelevant term, fine. I can go with something like "Deliberate Systematic Extermination of Jews and Other Groups by the Nazi Regime" instead. It's wordier, but if it makes you feel better, I'm willing to go that extra mile for a bit.