Rapture? What's that?

[jgr]

Yes, apostasia is the root word for apostasy. However, it also means to depart, or departure. Which one of the meanings is used depends upon the text it is used in. 2 Thess.2:1-8 is most certainly about a rapture and has nothing whatever to do with any falling away or apostasy.


Quasar92

Debunked.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified the man of sin as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3


The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

 

[keras]

This 'rising of the dead' In I Thess 4:15-17 is the same verb use used for Jesus rising from the dead.
There does seem to be a clear link between the rising of the dead here and the resurrection into new glorified bodies as described in I Cor 15:50-56.

We are plainly told exactly who will be resurrected at Jesus' Return:
I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded, those who had not worshipped the beast and its image or taken its mark. THEY came to life again and reigned with Jesus for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4
So it is not every Christian who has died or even been martyred, who are brought back to life at the Return. They, like everyone else must wait for the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Mill.

You avoided my proof that it is only at the GWT, that immortality is conferred and only to those whose names are in the Book of Life.

 

[Quasar92]

Hmmm really:

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. (Rev. 4:1-2)
​

The lampstand is seen blazing before the throne but that's not a rapture or a resurrection.



There can't be two second comings, that makes no sense. The armies of the Antichrist know that they are being judged but he doesn't actually appear and return until the battle of Armageddon.



Thus the confusion of dispensational theology, the church definitely meets Christ in the air when he returns. You have two returns, the Scriptures only one.

What'w your problem with the teachings of the coming pre0trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, outlined in my post #84? Nowhere is there any claim there is going to be two second comings. There will be only ONE second coming to the earth, as recorded in Zech.14:4-5, confirmed in Rev.19:14. Where Jesus returns from the marriage in heaven, to His Bride, the Church, in Rev.19:7-8.

When Jesus comes for His Church, seven years earlier, all those who previously died in Christ come with Him from heaven in 1 Thess.4:14, and all those left on earth alive at His coming, will be CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the air, in verses 16-17. They return from there to the Father in heaven, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, and 28, NOT TO THE EARTH.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

The video below is by a former pretribber.

[/QUOTE


The Scriptural teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture of the ChurchBy Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul in my posts #84 and 85 refute you.


Quasar92]

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, apostasia is the root word for apostasy. However, it also means to depart, or departure. Which one of the meanings is used depends upon the text it is used in. 2 Thess.2:1-8 is most certainly about a rapture and has nothing whatever to do with any falling away or apostasy.


Quasar92

I did read Walvood years back. Will have to see how he handles what Ice puts forth.

 

[Quasar92]

Debunked.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified the man of sin as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3


The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

Scriptural facts are never debunked with meaningless personal opinion along with speculation from sources other than the Bible. Dr.Thomas Ice, PhD, refutes you, as I previously posted in #84:

>>>In 2 Thes.2:3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.<<<


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

I did read Walvood years back. Will have to see how he handles what Ice puts forth.

Thomas Ice was a student of the late John Walvoord, at Dallas Theological Seminary.


Quasar92

 

[Marilyn C]

You can make that work by pretending that Christ does not come in "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 and by disconnecting 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 from chapter 4, even though the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 proves that they are connected.
.

Hi BABerean,

I never `disconnected` anything bro. I totally agree 1 Thess. 4 & 5 are connected. Let`s have a close look. First let`s see what the word `day` means.

day - Gk. word `hemera` meaning a day between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours, and fig. a period always defined by the context.

So we have `a day` specific day and `a day` a time period.

In 1 Thess. 5 we read -

`For when THEY say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And THEY shall not escape. BUT YOU, brethren, are NOT in darkness that this day should over take you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 3 & 4)

So is this 1 Thess. a specific day? Let`s compare it with THE specific day of the Lord, His wrath.

`And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men.........said ....."Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?` (Rev. 6: 15 - 17)

Does seem to me that the people `they` are NOT saying "peace and safety!`but rather `hide us!` Big difference there bro.

The 1 Thess. 5, day of the Lord is referring to a time period, which begins after the Russian war & the peace treaty is signed with Israel. Then `they` are saying 'peace and safety!`

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

You can make that work by pretending that Christ does not come in "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 .....

Then pretend that Peter mentioned a 1,000 year kingdom in 2 Peter chapter 3, which he did not.
Instead he placed the fire on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10.

.

Hi BABerean,

Now we agree that the Lord comes in flaming fire as 2 Thess. 1 with His mighty angels, at the end of the tribulation. He comes as a thief to those in darkness. All clear in God`s word.

However this is the part I think you misunderstand. The Lord`s coming in `flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God....` (2 Thess. 2: 8) is different from what the Apostle Peter was saying. Let`s have a closer look.

`But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved...` (2 Peter 3: 10 & 11)

Day of the Lord - Time period.

I..........(Trib)....................>.....................(Millennium)...........................I
(come as thief)........................................................................ (all burnt up)

`Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.......And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.` (Rev. 20: 11, 21: 1)

So clearly the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Peter is referring to more than when Christ comes to bring judgment upon the rebellious. Peter is referring to the end of the millennium when the earth and the heaven will pass away, be dissolved, burnt up.

Marilyn.

 

[jgr]

Scriptural facts are never debunked with meaningless personal opinion along with speculation from sources other than the Bible. Dr.Thomas Ice, PhD, refutes you, as I previously posted in #84:

>>>In 2 Thes.2:3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.<<<


Quasar92

Debunked.

Departure as rapture is not found in a single contemporary English Bible translation in existence, including Darby and Scofield.

I contacted the Lockman Foundation, producers of the acclaimed NASB translation.

NASB translators' comments on the article in which Thomas Ice attempts to rewrite 2 Thess. 2:3:

The online article cited offers arguments which are incorrect. The verb that apostasia comes from has several meanings, but the main meanings include "revolt," "desert," "fall away," and even "become a backslider." The noun apostasia is not automatically capable of having all of the meanings that the verb does. The way the meaning of a word is determined is by examining how it is used, and apostasia is consistently used of revolting, rebellion, and abandoning a belief system. Aside from 2 Thess 2:3 it is only found in Acts 21:21 in the New Testament, where it is used of abandoning the Law of Moses. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it occurs in Josh 22:22, 2 Chr 29:19, and 1 Macc 2:15, and in each verse it refers to apostasy or rebellion.

It is interesting that the writer also cites Liddell and Scott (now LSJM) in support, observing that the first definitions are "defection" and "revolt." He fails to mention that LSJM immediately add, "especially in a religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy," and then go on to cite not only Josh 22:22 but also 2 Thess 2:3. So what the writer states is simply a misleading presentation of the evidence. The argument about the translation shift is irrelevant in view of the evidence for the correct meaning, and this argument is also questionable. "Departure" seems not to have meant simply to leave a place, but to separate from someone or something. For these and other reasons the NASB translators are confident about the meaning "apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:3.

 

[Quasar92]

Debunked.

Departure as rapture is not found in a single contemporary English Bible translation in existence, including Darby and Scofield.

I contacted the Lockman Foundation, producers of the acclaimed NASB translation.

NASB translators' comments on the article in which Thomas Ice attempts to rewrite 2 Thess. 2:3:

The online article cited offers arguments which are incorrect. The verb that apostasia comes from has several meanings, but the main meanings include "revolt," "desert," "fall away," and even "become a backslider." The noun apostasia is not automatically capable of having all of the meanings that the verb does. The way the meaning of a word is determined is by examining how it is used, and apostasia is consistently used of revolting, rebellion, and abandoning a belief system. Aside from 2 Thess 2:3 it is only found in Acts 21:21 in the New Testament, where it is used of abandoning the Law of Moses. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it occurs in Josh 22:22, 2 Chr 29:19, and 1 Macc 2:15, and in each verse it refers to apostasy or rebellion.

It is interesting that the writer also cites Liddell and Scott (now LSJM) in support, observing that the first definitions are "defection" and "revolt." He fails to mention that LSJM immediately add, "especially in a religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy," and then go on to cite not only Josh 22:22 but also 2 Thess 2:3. So what the writer states is simply a misleading presentation of the evidence. The argument about the translation shift is irrelevant in view of the evidence for the correct meaning, and this argument is also questionable. "Departure" seems not to have meant simply to leave a place, but to separate from someone or something. For these and other reasons the NASB translators are confident about the meaning "apostasy" in 2 Thess 2:3.

It doesn't make a bit of difference how many times you post the above views, as the text of the Scriptures you are twisting around to suit yur belief system have been refuted the last time, in my post #106.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Hi BABerean,

Now we agree that the Lord comes in flaming fire as 2 Thess. 1 with His mighty angels, at the end of the tribulation. He comes as a thief to those in darkness. All clear in God`s word.

However this is the part I think you misunderstand. The Lord`s coming in `flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God....` (2 Thess. 2: 8) is different from what the Apostle Peter was saying. Let`s have a closer look.

`But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved...` (2 Peter 3: 10 & 11)

Day of the Lord - Time period.

I..........(Trib)....................>.....................(Millennium)...........................I
(come as thief)........................................................................ (all burnt up)

`Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.......And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.` (Rev. 20: 11, 21: 1)

So clearly the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Peter is referring to more than when Christ comes to bring judgment upon the rebellious. Peter is referring to the end of the millennium when the earth and the heaven will pass away, be dissolved, burnt up.

Marilyn.

Your problem is that you are forcing the scripture to fit your chart, which did not come from the Bible.

There is a direct connection between the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, which occurs on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief found in the timing revealed at the beginning of chapter 5. We know the two chapters are connected based on the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10.

1Th 5:1　 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.　
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)

1Th 5:2　 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.　


2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.　

Peter connects the earth burning up to the event in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 in the verse above.


You are also attempting to ignore the judgment of the nations at the end of Matthew chapter 25.

Your millennium contains people who still die, even though death dies at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul:

Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

'from the four winds and from one end of the heavens to another' are just idioms that His elect all over the globe will be collected. It isn't saying they are in God's heaven.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

This verse isn't saying they will escape *by* standing before the Son of man, but rather that they pray they physically escape the judgment on Jerusalem by fleeing when they see the signs (Lk 21:20-24) and that spiritually they will stay on watch against drunkenness, courousing, anxiety, etc. so that they will be *able* to stand before Christ. (Lk 21:34-36)

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The place Christ prepares for us (whether room, mansion, etc.) is speaking of -after- our resurrection. Note that we only go to this place, to be where Jesus is, after Jesus comes back to take us with Him. Note that there is also a spiritual connotation here of being clothed in our new bodies or new 'heavenly dwelling.'
"Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling," II Cor 5:2

[/QUOTE]

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.[/QUOTE]

While there is debate in the church as to whether this verse refers to our spirits as consciously hanging out in heaven or to our consciousness going straight from death to the resurrection in the twinkling of an eye, scripture is clear that we do not receive our new spiritual bodies until after the resurrection.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." I Cor 15:51-53

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

Nowhere in I Thess 4:13-18 does it mention the dead coming down from heaven. Quite the opposite!!!

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." I Thess 4:13-17

The dead aren't returning with Christ from heaven, but *rising from the Earth* ahead of the living. The living then are caught up to join them and meet the descending Christ.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.
"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, in vs. 14, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Verses 15-17 clearly describe how this happens. The dead rise to meet Christ first, then the living are caught up to meet Christ and the resurrected dead. Since Jesus is still descending as the living rise to meet Him, then Jesus is bringing along the dead He just gathered to Him. Verse 14 is not saying that the dead were resurrected at death and have been in heaven the whole time! (Again there is debate in the church as to whether the spirits of the dead (not the bodies) are conscious in heaven during the interim between death and resurrection or nor, but it is quite clear in the passage that these dead *have not been ressurected* or put on the imperishable until the return of Christ. I Thess 4:14-17 shows that the living do not precede the dead because the dead rise first when Jesus returns, and then the living are *caught up together with them* to meet Christ.*

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8 and 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason 1 Thes4:16 is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

You cannot get this reading from I Thess 4:14-17 without ignoring the actual text. II Cor 5:6-8 contrasts being in the body/away from the Lord and being away from the body/with the Lord, but does not go into detail as to whether that means our spirits hang out with Christ at death or if our conciousness goes strait from death to ressurection, etc. It also clarifies that we all (including the dead) must stand before the judgement seat of Christ to receive what is due - which would include our new spiritual bodies.

Also, why don't you consider I Thess 4:16 a resurrection? The passage is very clear that the dead are rising from the Earth to meet Christ, in conjunction with the trumpet call of God. It's against the context of the passage to claim it isn't a ressurection of the dead!

Lastly, I Cor 15:23 in no wise states that the dead are each individually resurrected as they die!

"But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him." I Cor 15:53

Christ - then everyone else at His coming. There is no in-between, let alone billions of in-betweens.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

Again, this is no where in the actual text. I Thess 4:13-14 doesn't say the dead were individually raised previously. In fact, Paul specifically states that they currently sleep in death (I Thess 4:13), but that they will rise before the living at the coming of Christ (I Thess 4:14-17.) The dead will rise first to meet Christ; the living will meet both Christ and the resurrected dead as Christ descends.)

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

The passage never explicitly gives the destination. However, the Greek word use strongly supports that the destination is Earth, not God's heaven. 1) Christ is descending - no mention of His immediate re-ascension is mentioned. 2) Jesus is prophesied to return to Earth in the same manner He ascended. He didn't ascend halfway then come back. 3) 'meet the lord' is a Greek phrase used to show a delegation meeting a new ruler at a halfway point, then escorting the new ruler back to their kingdom 4) we meet Christ in the lower air, which is below all three heavens (atmosphere, space, God's heaven) - the lower air is where living things breathe like birds and trees and people.

Jn 14:2-4 does not promise we will go to heaven, either, but that in Jesus' Father's house there are many rooms, and that we will be with the Lord forever. This could be in God's heaven - or it could be in the New Jerusalem descended to Earth. Rev 19-20 seems to imply the latter - that God's permanent dwelling with us will be on the New Earth.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

It was Christ who confirmed a covenant with many through His blood. ""This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them." Mk 14:24

It was Jesus who caused sacrifice to end once and for all.

"First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb 10:8-13

I've already gone over this point extensively in other threads as to the grammar, context, parallel scriptures, etc. Suffice to say that the 70 weeks might or might not already be over, but there is certainly no need to look for future fulfillment of prophecies that Christ has already clearly fulfilled.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Paul is speaking of the Day of the Lord, not the triubulation. They are not the same thing!
the "Great Tribulation" refers to the the heaviest persecution of believers the world has ever seen (Matt 24:21-22), wheras the ultimate 'Day of the Lord' refers to God's final outpouring of wrath upon the nations (which ends with the actual melting of the earth and the universe itself! (II Peter 3:10-13))
Why is it that Isaiah 2:11 says that the Lord alone will be exalted in the Day of the Lord, yet Revelation and Daniel describe a tribulation period when antichrist will be worshipped and served by the unsaved for seven years?

 

[Marilyn C]

Your problem is that you are forcing the scripture to fit your chart, which did not come from the Bible.

There is a direct connection between the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, which occurs on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief found in the timing revealed at the beginning of chapter 5. We know the two chapters are connected based on the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10.

1Th 5:1　 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.　
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)

1Th 5:2　 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.　


2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.　

Peter connects the earth burning up to the event in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 in the verse above.


You are also attempting to ignore the judgment of the nations at the end of Matthew chapter 25.

Your millennium contains people who still die, even though death dies at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

.

Hi BABerean,

The big BUT means - `BUT YOU, brethren, are NOT IN DARKNESS, so that this day should overtake you as a thief. `(1 Thess. 5: 4)

`...BUT exhorting one another, and SO MUCH MORE AS YOU SEE the day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Peter tells us that the commencement of the Day of the Lord (God Almighty - judgment) is in the time period when the Lord comes as a thief , and then goes on to reveal that when the earth & the heavens are burnt up, then that concludes the Day of the Lord.

As to `death,` the `last enemy to be destroyed, God`s word tells us that that is when all things are under Christ`s feet - when He has put an end to all rule & authority, all rebellion, and that is at the end of the millennium. (1 Cor. 15: 26 - 28, Rev. 20: 7 - 15)

Marilyn.

 

[BABerean2]

As to `death,` the `last enemy to be destroyed, God`s word tells us that that is when all things are under Christ`s feet - when He has put an end to all rule & authority, all rebellion, and that is at the end of the millennium. (1 Cor. 15: 26 - 28, Rev. 20: 7 - 15)

You forgot Revelation 11:15-18.

Rev 11:15　 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"　
(The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever" at the 7th trumpet. How long is "forever"? It does not wait for 1,000 years after Christ's return.)

Rev 11:16　 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,　
Rev 11:17　 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　

God's wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead come right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
The only way you can make the pretrib and the premill doctrine work is by ignoring or redefining this passage.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.

 

[keras]

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry and Your wrath has come.....
The 24 Elders spoke of past events there and then went on to speak of future events, of the final Judgement of all the dead and the Rewards for the righteous. Which we know will happen at the end of the Millennium.

God's wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead come right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

We know when the Lord comes unexpectedly and pours out His vengeance and wrath: At the Sixth Seal, a one Day; 24 hour, worldwide disaster by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis.
The Great Tribulation is also Gods wrath, but that is directed only at the ungodly people and will last for 3 1/2 years.
The LAST Trumpet, that will raise all the dead who have ever lived, plainly happens after the Millennium.
Please cease posting theories that clearly contradict Scripture.

 

[Marilyn C]

You forgot Revelation 11:15-18.

Rev 11:15　 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"　
(The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever" at the 7th trumpet. How long is "forever"? It does not wait for 1,000 years after Christ's return.)

Rev 11:16　 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,　
Rev 11:17　 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　

God's wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead come right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
The only way you can make the pretrib and the premill doctrine work is by ignoring or redefining this passage.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.

Hi BABerean,

Now you would be familiar with Isaiah 61:2 -

`(The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,.....) to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance; to comfort all who mourn, .....` (Isa. 61: 2)

This is one sentence and the details appear to follow after each other. How do we know any different? Well we look at all of God`s word on the topic and see what He says. So we go to Luke 4: 18 & 19, where the Lord quotes the verse in Isaiah but leaving out `the day of vengeance.` Why? Because we know from reading other parts of God`s word that that time is future from `the acceptable year of the Lord.`

We can`t build a doctrine on one verse, it needs to be seen within the context of all God`s word. Thus we see in Rev. 11: 15 that the angel is proclaiming that the Lord Jesus Christ`s rule over the nations has come and it will last forever. There will be rebellion as we read in Zech. 14 & Rev. 20 but the Lord will deal immediately with each rebellion, till He has put them all down.

Then the next part `and the time of the dead that they should be judged` comes after all rebellion is put down. The Lord`s wrath lasts through the millennium as He will still be addressing those who are rebelling.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[BABerean2]

The Lord`s wrath lasts through the millennium as He will still be addressing those who are rebelling.

Not any lion laying down with the lamb in your version...

You still have not dealt with the judgment of the nations at His return, which is found at the end of Matthew chapter 25.

.

 

[Marilyn C]

Not any lion laying down with the lamb in your version...

.

Yes we know from scripture that the lion lies down with the lamb, BUT WHERE bro, WHERE.

`The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent`s food. They shall not hurt nor destroy IN ALL MY HOLY MOUNTAIN.` (Isa. 65: 25)

It is only on God`s holy mountain because the glory of the Lord is over Jerusalem but not over the world. It is the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord that goes out to the world as they some up to Jerusalem to learn of His ways.

Marilyn.

 

[jgr]

Yes we know from scripture that the lion lies down with the lamb, BUT WHERE bro, WHERE.

`The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent`s food. They shall not hurt nor destroy IN ALL MY HOLY MOUNTAIN.` (Isa. 65: 25)

It is only on God`s holy mountain because the glory of the Lord is over Jerusalem but not over the world. It is the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord that goes out to the world as they some up to Jerusalem to learn of His ways.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Isaiah 35:9
"No lion shall be there..."

Isaiah 65:25
"... the lion shall eat straw like the bullock..."

How does no lion eat straw like the bullock?