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Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

Can demons be given HOPE?

  • No... the demons have zero hope!

    Votes: 11 73.3%
  • Yes..... Elijah must "restore all things"

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • I am not sure but I will research this further.

    Votes: 3 20.0%

  • Total voters
    15

DennisTate

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You will not find Jesus or any Apostle looking for a fight with devils anywhere in scripture. I think picking a fight is a dangerous thing. Also, you should look into Joyner a bit closer and specifically his ties to masonry.

The Apostle Paul met with a lot of different people.....
who were from very different groups.... many of those
groups.... had some members who did horrible things but........

.... people like Paul are often sent to speak with people like Emperor Nero or some of
Nero's close advisors.

Talking to somebody.... meeting with somebody.... does not necessarily mean that you agree with those people all across the board......

Joseph of Arimaghaea knew people... .that most of the disciples did NOT know..... but did G-d use that to work out something good?

Matthew 27:57


When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
 
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Divide

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Book of Enoch is a 'pseudepigraph' written long after Enoch's life on earth.
It's not considered 'inspired' by most Christians and scholars, but there is a lot of insight about the unseen realm to be found in it.
And indeed, the NT writers quoted it, so it must have some value.
But there are also things in it that are highly ambiguous in light of the Bible (or so i'm told).

It may not be inspired, it may not be canonized. But it's not salvific in nature either! It doesn't speak of how to be redeemed, nothing like that. I understand that it used to be scripture. So like another poster noted...it is good for insight. It fills in the holes about bible stories with more details.
 
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DennisTate

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A nice story.

Any time truth overcomes ignorance (of the will of the Father) one see's the amazement.

The Gospel of Thomas says:
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

One must overcome the troubled part to see the astonishment in truth. This is the clarity when the veil of ignorance is lifted from our eyes. Everytimes the Spirit reveals the truth of the Father, we grow in spiritual knowledge. We see those who are slaves (to ignorance) through being free as Jesus said we would be free.

The Gospel of Philip says:
As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.

The saviors commandments were of love, the same perfect love he gives us, he wants in return. Sin is merely ignorance of love. It is through his love we receive grace, and grace is understanding that he loves us though we sin, through his patience that we are imperfect.

To love as the Father loves is to be perfect as Christ taught us to be perfect as our Father is perfect. We are children, seeking to be as our Father. Sons of the living God. This is the mystery of being one.


Wow!!!!!!!!!

Here is another quotation from Pastor Rick that just seems too insightful to not have been inspired by the Holy Spirit........

A message from Adam to all of humanity?! Does this sound legitimate to you???
 
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2Timothy2:15

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The Apostle Paul met with a lot of different people.....
who were from very different groups.... many of those
groups.... had some members who did horrible things but........

.... people like Paul are often sent to speak with people like Emperor Nero or some of
Nero's close advisors.

Talking to somebody.... meeting with somebody.... does not necessarily mean that you agree with those people all across the board......

Joseph of Arimaghaea knew people... .that most of the disciples did NOT know..... but did G-d use that to work out something good?

Matthew 27:57


When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.

I do not understand your response in the context of offensively engaging the enemy.
 
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Divide

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The demons have no hope as proved out by the gospels when Jesus was casting them out they knew who he was and in Math 8 say this And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

Here we see even the demons know the end and that there is a specific destiny for them. We are told to put on the armor of God to stand against the devil. The devil is often in the church so if we fight against him we will be calling out the demonic doctrines coming out of many pulpits.

Exactly Brother. Scripture (well, if one is to go on the premise of the naysayers) Doesn't say where the demons came from. It speaks of fallen angels, good angels, God and man. So I ask them...So where did all the demons come from that Jesus was out casting out? They can't tell me.

Enoch tells us, very plainly. They are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim which were killed in the flood. They can't leave earth.
 
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DennisTate

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It may not be inspired, it may not be canonized. But it's not salvific in nature either! It doesn't speak of how to be redeemed, nothing like that. I understand that it used to be scripture. So like another poster noted...it is good for insight. It fills in the holes about bible stories with more details.

But.... it could also be an extremely important piece of literature for some types of sin.......
such as in the case of the sex trade!
 
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DennisTate

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I do not understand your response in the context of offensively engaging the enemy.

You .... or one of the other posters........ mentioned that Pastor Rick Joyner was somehow connected to the Masons.

Some of his vehement critics will use anything to try to discredit him. So what if he has a ministry to Masons?????

Having a ministry to Masons... .does not necessarily make him a Mason himself.


You will not find Jesus or any Apostle looking for a fight with devils anywhere in scripture. I think picking a fight is a dangerous thing. Also, you should look into Joyner a bit closer and specifically his ties to masonry.
 
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Vicomte13

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Enoch was so righteous that God took him, yet his book is crap?

But is it really his book? There are a bunch of other gospels too, but they aren't real.

Certainly Jude was impressed by the Book of Enoch - he mentions it by name. And Jesus quotes or paraphrases quite a few passages from Enoch (the Enoch that is part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Canon). Peter seems to speak of information from the Book of Enoch.

But is the book we have from Ethiopia, the Book of Enoch in Ge'ez, really the Enoch to which Jude, Peter and Jesus referred? There is no way to know.

One thing is certain about the Book of Enoch that we have: if you read it and accept it as part of the canon, it changes a lot of traditional ways of looking at things, and forces the acceptance of the thought that the Genesis reference to the Nephilim means that angels did mate with women and create offspring. That, in turn, explains why some Jews thought the idea that God Himself would mate with a human woman and produce a child (Jesus) was obviously monstrous and evil - that if it were TRUE, that's not GOD who did that, but some fallen angel. It helps explain why some Jews saw Jesus's miracles but ascribed them to dark powers, not God.

Jesus' answer: "Can Satan cast out Satan?" is really not a satisfying answer of all. Of course Satan can sacrifice a pawn or two to gain a bigger prize. Human generals of all nations sacrifice the lives of some soldiers under their commands in diversions to make surprise breakthroughs on other fronts, naval commanders send in small ships to delay enemy forces knowing full well that those small ships will almost certainly be destroyed with hundreds of deaths of our their own men. The Americans sent the Doolittle Raid to bomb Tokyo knowing that the planes had nowhere to land, would all be lost, would crash-land in China, and that all of the crews might be captured by the Japanese.

Human commanders ROUTINELY sacrifice some of their own soldiers' lives as pawns on the battlefield - ROUTINELY. American commanders do it. We don't like to talk about it that way, but that's what holding forces are. The men at the Alamo were sent to hold the town to buy time - THEIR lives were forfeit from the moment they were sent. The Marines sent to Wake Island to defend it were going to be overwhelmed and die or be captured, by the Japanese no less.

The notion that Satan cannot cast a few demons out of people to make a big show - with those demons suffering and having to travel through the wastes to find someone else to possess - is trivially obvious. Which is why Jesus' argument was not persuasive to the listeners. "Can Satan cast out Satan?" Who knows? Satan can certainly cast out a few demons in order to win a bigger battle.

One of the views of those who were adamantly opposed to Jesus was that HE was a Nephil - the offspring of some evil angelic power and a human woman (which would be a very good reason why the Virgin Birth was not trumpeted left and right when it happened. Consider how medieval and Reformation Era CHRISTIANS would have handled a Virgin Birth: "She's a witch in league with Lucifer - burn her!" The Jews of Jesus' time weren't LESS superstitious, and they had the Book of Enoch to look at for tales of fallen angels mating with humans to make heroes and monsters.

The Greeks, for their part, did too: Hercules and Aeneas, Dionysius and Achilles, Perseus and Helen of Troy - all the offspring of gods and humans. It was easier for the Greco-Romans to accept Jesus, son of God, than for the Jews too. And Enoch gave the Jews the ability to see Jesus as the son of a demon prince and a harlot.

So, sure, IF Enoch - the real, original Enoch - really wrote a book way back then, and we still really have it in the Ge'ez form, that's something.

But if, really, the "Book of Enoch" was fantasy fiction of Jewish zealots written 300 years BC, then we're not really reading about Enoch and the Nephilim, we're reading about Frodo and Sauron and the orcs - and just THINKING that an ancient novel is actually Scripture.

That is basically where the Latin and Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church came down on the matter, which is why Enoch was excluded. The Catholic Oriental Orthodox, particularly in Ethiopia, came down on the side of acceptance.

So, there was a time when the Book of Enoch was part of the Catholic and Orthodox Church, in the Ethiopian part of it. But after the Council of Chalcedon that part separated off, and with it, the Book of Enoch, other than as a reference by Jude. Most people don't realize the extent to which Jesus uses terms that come out of that book. The Apostles were likewise interested in it.

It does open the possibility that the Jews were right, that Jesus is the son of Satan and a woman - a Nephil, not a son of God - and that the miracles he performed (and since) have all been done by the power of Satan, to deceive people into worshipping Jesus and a Holy Spirit - polytheism - instead of the One True God YHWH.

It's possible.

If that is so, then Satan can do miraculous healings - of the blind, raising the dead, etc., and the battlefield becomes very complicated. Are those who follow YHWH even on the right side in such a case?

It's all possible, and Enoch opens up that whole front of battle.

But all that seems unlikely.

I'm a Catholic, the Church did not include Enoch in the Canon, and I believe that the Church has been empowered by God to infallibly make all such decisions. So therefore whatever Enoch is, it does not have the authority that anything else in Scripture does - and that means that I can read Genesis the way I read it and don't have to consider the stories in Enoch to be real history.

I think that Enoch is a 3rd Century BC Jewish "Lord of the Rings", written in Greek, that it was well known, so Jesus quoted the language in parts of it, but that it probably does not recount anything that really happened.

I think that Peter, and especially Jude, really thought that Enoch was real history, so they referred to parts of it. But I think they were mistaken. And the Holy Spirit, speaking infallibly through the authority of the Catholic Church, made sure that error could not become actual doctrine by making sure that the Book of Enoch never got into the Canon.

Of course, other Christian Churches are not infallible on such things, and Enoch is a great story - not as interesting as Frodo, Sauron, the Ring and Mt Doom, but interesting nevertheless - so they may accept the novel as quasi-Scripture and move forth from there.

When I do that (put myself in a position where Enoch IS Scripture), then I conclude that the dinosaurs were probably nephilim - offspring of angels and lizards and birds - and that a key purpose of the Flood was to wipe them out. That angels still could do that after the Flood but that God restrained it. And that Jesus is unique because he is the sole example of The One True God, YHWH fathering a child with a human woman.

The biggest problem with including Enoch as Scripture, though, is not the story itself. It's a feature of the story. Enoch claims that we saw the place where the Four Winds are stored and sent forth upon the earth.

But if Enoch were actually taken up into the real sky, he would, instead, have reported the startling fact that the world was a round ball - not that the winds are stored somewhere, or that the stars go through gates when they rise and set. The structure of the sky that Enoch describes is an imaginative, and obviously false, ancient impression of things. Had somebody REALLY gone up into the sky, he would not see the gates where the stars go, or the containers of the winds. He would see what astronauts see.

So, Enoch reports ancient fables about the structure of the skies, but it reports them as facts.

What that MEANS is that if Enoch is in the Bible, then you can complete discount ANY facts in the Bible that contradict what we know. If ancient fables about where winds and stars go is Biblical, then the truthfulness of the Biblical text ITSELF is entirely thrown into question. Are ANY of the creation stories or miracles real? If the Bible says the stars go through a gate at sunrise, that the sun goes through a gate at sunset, and the winds are stored and released upon the earth, and then gathered up again - then the Bible cannot be taken as a source of fact, because those things are all untrue.

That, then, makes it very easy to discount the other things that seem miraculous or unlikely, and the Bible becomes ancient legend. And maybe Jesus and God become that too.

Those of us who have encountered miracles and spirits directly still have those experiences, but there is no particular reason to attach our own experiences to the Christian legends, then.

Truth is, for me, the Book of Enoch is a game changer. If it's in the Bible, then the entire Bible could be a work of fiction, because parts of Enoch are CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY untrue, whether read in English or in their original languages.

But it's not in the Bible. God kept it out, through the Holy Spirit firmly guiding the Church.

The fact that Enoch is out, but Jude explicitly and Peter more subtly used it, means that the Apostles themselves are NOT the ultimate authority over the message of God - the CHURCH itself is. For Jude believed in the book of Enoch, and he was an Apostle. And Peter did too. But Peter and Jude, one sixth of the Apostles, and the chief apostle, like Paul, are not God. God is God, and God the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church, preventing the CHURCH from being in error even where the Apostles were, and even where they wrote their erroneous opinions into the Bible.

The presence of Enoch in or out of Scripture changes everything.

People who want religion to be like Lord of the Rings love Enoch.
People like me recognize that Enoch is literally false in some places, and that it's presence within Scripture destroys the claim of truth of Scripture.

Jude can REFER TO Enoch, as a story, Jesus and Peter can QUOTE Enoch, but that doesn't make Enoch Scripture. God made sure that it was not included, at the Council of Carthage, and re-ratified that decision at the Council of Trent. God spoke through the Church, infallibly, and thereby the bulk of Christianity dodged the "Enoch bullet".

Which is a good thing, because that way madness lies.
 
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Phantasman

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That doesn't mean construct your own 'truth'.
Moreover, anything you have learned in life, you have learned from someone else.
Since you're apparently a seeking Christian, i though i'd help you out with some needed perspective on the so called 'gnostic gospels' and the canon.
Contrary to your apparent preference, there are people out there who know their stuff and share it for your benefit.
These are not 'teachings of men' necessarily, there's a lot of honest scholarly work out there that helps us understand things.
The RCC created the Canon. Not the Father.

The word Christian means of the Chrism. The name Christian is misused by many.

The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word "Chrism" that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because of the word "baptism". And it is because of the chrism that "the Christ" has his name. For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us. He who has been anointed possesses everything. He possesses the resurrection, the light, the cross, the Holy Spirit. The Father gave him this in the bridal chamber; he merely accepted (the gift). The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.- Philip

You follow those who say their touch gives the Holy Spirit. Yet you don't see the words "the flesh profits nothing". John 6:63

The sword Christ brought separated the flesh from the spirit. Orthodoxy teaches the ways of the flesh.

Water does nothing. Fire does nothing. Spiritual Knowledge (gnosis) is everything.

Secret James says:
"Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it.

And finally Thomas:
(39) Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."

It's not Canon. It's up to each man to determine if the words speak truth or not.

I see the fruits of the RCC that created it's Bible for man to follow. Christ said to teach the good news (Gospel) not the Bible.

It's all in perception.
 
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DennisTate

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But is it really his book? There are a bunch of other gospels too, but they aren't real.

Certainly Jude was impressed by the Book of Enoch - he mentions it by name. And Jesus quotes or paraphrases quite a few passages from Enoch (the Enoch that is part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Canon). Peter seems to speak of information from the Book of Enoch.

But is the book we have from Ethiopia, the Book of Enoch in Ge'ez, really the Enoch to which Jude, Peter and Jesus referred? There is no way to know.

One thing is certain about the Book of Enoch that we have: if you read it and accept it as part of the canon, it changes a lot of traditional ways of looking at things, and forces the acceptance of the thought that the Genesis reference to the Nephilim means that angels did mate with women and create offspring. That, in turn, explains why some Jews thought the idea that God Himself would mate with a human woman and produce a child (Jesus) was obviously monstrous and evil - that if it were TRUE, that's not GOD who did that, but some fallen angel. It helps explain why some Jews saw Jesus's miracles but ascribed them to dark powers, not God.

Jesus' answer: "Can Satan cast out Satan?" is really not a satisfying answer of all. Of course Satan can sacrifice a pawn or two to gain a bigger prize. Human generals of all nations sacrifice the lives of some soldiers under their commands in diversions to make surprise breakthroughs on other fronts, naval commanders send in small ships to delay enemy forces knowing full well that those small ships will almost certainly be destroyed with hundreds of deaths of our their own men. The Americans sent the Doolittle Raid to bomb Tokyo knowing that the planes had nowhere to land, would all be lost, would crash-land in China, and that all of the crews might be captured by the Japanese.

Human commanders ROUTINELY sacrifice some of their own soldiers' lives as pawns on the battlefield - ROUTINELY. American commanders do it. We don't like to talk about it that way, but that's what holding forces are. The men at the Alamo were sent to hold the town to buy time - THEIR lives were forfeit from the moment they were sent. The Marines sent to Wake Island to defend it were going to be overwhelmed and die or be captured, by the Japanese no less.

The notion that Satan cannot cast a few demons out of people to make a big show - with those demons suffering and having to travel through the wastes to find someone else to possess - is trivially obvious. Which is why Jesus' argument was not persuasive to the listeners. "Can Satan cast out Satan?" Who knows? Satan can certainly cast out a few demons in order to win a bigger battle.

One of the views of those who were adamantly opposed to Jesus was that HE was a Nephil - the offspring of some evil angelic power and a human woman (which would be a very good reason why the Virgin Birth was not trumpeted left and right when it happened. Consider how medieval and Reformation Era CHRISTIANS would have handled a Virgin Birth: "She's a witch in league with Lucifer - burn her!" The Jews of Jesus' time weren't LESS superstitious, and they had the Book of Enoch to look at for tales of fallen angels mating with humans to make heroes and monsters.

The Greeks, for their part, did too: Hercules and Aeneas, Dionysius and Achilles, Perseus and Helen of Troy - all the offspring of gods and humans. It was easier for the Greco-Romans to accept Jesus, son of God, than for the Jews too. And Enoch gave the Jews the ability to see Jesus as the son of a demon prince and a harlot.

So, sure, IF Enoch - the real, original Enoch - really wrote a book way back then, and we still really have it in the Ge'ez form, that's something.

But if, really, the "Book of Enoch" was fantasy fiction of Jewish zealots written 300 years BC, then we're not really reading about Enoch and the Nephilim, we're reading about Frodo and Sauron and the orcs - and just THINKING that an ancient novel is actually Scripture.

That is basically where the Latin and Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church came down on the matter, which is why Enoch was excluded. The Catholic Oriental Orthodox, particularly in Ethiopia, came down on the side of acceptance.

So, there was a time when the Book of Enoch was part of the Catholic and Orthodox Church, in the Ethiopian part of it. But after the Council of Chalcedon that part separated off, and with it, the Book of Enoch, other than as a reference by Jude. Most people don't realize the extent to which Jesus uses terms that come out of that book. The Apostles were likewise interested in it.

It does open the possibility that the Jews were right, that Jesus is the son of Satan and a woman - a Nephil, not a son of God - and that the miracles he performed (and since) have all been done by the power of Satan, to deceive people into worshipping Jesus and a Holy Spirit - polytheism - instead of the One True God YHWH.

It's possible.

If that is so, then Satan can do miraculous healings - of the blind, raising the dead, etc., and the battlefield becomes very complicated. Are those who follow YHWH even on the right side in such a case?

It's all possible, and Enoch opens up that whole front of battle.

But all that seems unlikely.

I'm a Catholic, the Church did not include Enoch in the Canon, and I believe that the Church has been empowered by God to infallibly make all such decisions. So therefore whatever Enoch is, it does not have the authority that anything else in Scripture does - and that means that I can read Genesis the way I read it and don't have to consider the stories in Enoch to be real history.

I think that Enoch is a 3rd Century BC Jewish "Lord of the Rings", written in Greek, that it was well known, so Jesus quoted the language in parts of it, but that it probably does not recount anything that really happened.

I think that Peter, and especially Jude, really thought that Enoch was real history, so they referred to parts of it. But I think they were mistaken. And the Holy Spirit, speaking infallibly through the authority of the Catholic Church, made sure that error could not become actual doctrine by making sure that the Book of Enoch never got into the Canon.

Of course, other Christian Churches are not infallible on such things, and Enoch is a great story - not as interesting as Frodo, Sauron, the Ring and Mt Doom, but interesting nevertheless - so they may accept the novel as quasi-Scripture and move forth from there.

When I do that (put myself in a position where Enoch IS Scripture), then I conclude that the dinosaurs were probably nephilim - offspring of angels and lizards and birds - and that a key purpose of the Flood was to wipe them out. That angels still could do that after the Flood but that God restrained it. And that Jesus is unique because he is the sole example of The One True God, YHWH fathering a child with a human woman.

The biggest problem with including Enoch as Scripture, though, is not the story itself. It's a feature of the story. Enoch claims that we saw the place where the Four Winds are stored and sent forth upon the earth.

But if Enoch were actually taken up into the real sky, he would, instead, have reported the startling fact that the world was a round ball - not that the winds are stored somewhere, or that the stars go through gates when they rise and set. The structure of the sky that Enoch describes is an imaginative, and obviously false, ancient impression of things. Had somebody REALLY gone up into the sky, he would not see the gates where the stars go, or the containers of the winds. He would see what astronauts see.

So, Enoch reports ancient fables about the structure of the skies, but it reports them as facts.

What that MEANS is that if Enoch is in the Bible, then you can complete discount ANY facts in the Bible that contradict what we know. If ancient fables about where winds and stars go is Biblical, then the truthfulness of the Biblical text ITSELF is entirely thrown into question. Are ANY of the creation stories or miracles real? If the Bible says the stars go through a gate at sunrise, that the sun goes through a gate at sunset, and the winds are stored and released upon the earth, and then gathered up again - then the Bible cannot be taken as a source of fact, because those things are all untrue.

That, then, makes it very easy to discount the other things that seem miraculous or unlikely, and the Bible becomes ancient legend. And maybe Jesus and God become that too.

Those of us who have encountered miracles and spirits directly still have those experiences, but there is no particular reason to attach our own experiences to the Christian legends, then.

Truth is, for me, the Book of Enoch is a game changer. If it's in the Bible, then the entire Bible could be a work of fiction, because parts of Enoch are CLEARLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY untrue, whether read in English or in their original languages.

But it's not in the Bible. God kept it out, through the Holy Spirit firmly guiding the Church.

The fact that Enoch is out, but Jude explicitly and Peter more subtly used it, means that the Apostles themselves are NOT the ultimate authority over the message of God - the CHURCH itself is. For Jude believed in the book of Enoch, and he was an Apostle. And Peter did too. But Peter and Jude, one sixth of the Apostles, and the chief apostle, like Paul, are not God. God is God, and God the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church, preventing the CHURCH from being in error even where the Apostles were, and even where they wrote their erroneous opinions into the Bible.

The presence of Enoch in or out of Scripture changes everything.

People who want religion to be like Lord of the Rings love Enoch.
People like me recognize that Enoch is literally false in some places, and that it's presence within Scripture destroys the claim of truth of Scripture.

Jude can REFER TO Enoch, as a story, Jesus and Peter can QUOTE Enoch, but that doesn't make Enoch Scripture. God made sure that it was not included, at the Council of Carthage, and re-ratified that decision at the Council of Trent. God spoke through the Church, infallibly, and thereby the bulk of Christianity dodged the "Enoch bullet".

Which is a good thing, because that way madness lies.

Actually........ we do know of cases where a Monk or two or three or ten.......altered / added to scripture.

This possibility was so real that there is a warning against it in Revelations / The Apocalypse.

The Apostle Paul never once refers to the traditional Virgin Birth doctrine.

Luke wrote after Paul's gospels....... and there is a real possibility that the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost... overshadowed the unmarried, but engaged, Mary Myriam.... .and told her to go and sleep with her husband so that her son or sons.... would be born on schedule.

YHWH is Lord of Marriage....... .and engagement...... not only of the Sabbath.

Revelation 22:18

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"

Jewish scholars who are offended by the idea of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus being almost like an alien - human hybrid..... could perhaps be onto something... because the word virgin in Isaiah.... simply means young unmarried woman.
 
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Phantasman

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Wow!!!!!!!!!

Here is another quotation from Pastor Rick that just seems too insightful to not have been inspired by the Holy Spirit........

A message from Adam to all of humanity?! Does this sound legitimate to you???
Sorry. This one I don't see at all as being spiritual truth. It speaks of physical things like those used to entice Christ in the desert. The promise of a physical paradise. We seek the kingdom of God which is (in) spirit. Jesus rejected the promises of power in the physical world. (though the catholic orthodox jumped on it when Constantine offered it).
 
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DennisTate

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The RCC created the Canon. Not the Father.

The word Christian means of the Chrism. The name Christian is misused by many.

The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word "Chrism" that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because of the word "baptism". And it is because of the chrism that "the Christ" has his name. For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us. He who has been anointed possesses everything. He possesses the resurrection, the light, the cross, the Holy Spirit. The Father gave him this in the bridal chamber; he merely accepted (the gift). The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.- Philip

You follow those who say their touch gives the Holy Spirit. Yet you don't see the words "the flesh profits nothing". John 6:63

The sword Christ brought separated the flesh from the spirit. Orthodoxy teaches the ways of the flesh.

Water does nothing. Fire does nothing. Spiritual Knowledge (gnosis) is everything.

Secret James says:
"Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it.

And finally Thomas:
(39) Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."

It's not Canon. It's up to each man to determine if the words speak truth or not.

I see the fruits of the RCC that created it's Bible for man to follow. Christ said to teach the good news (Gospel) not the Bible.

It's all in perception.

Your opening point is a crucial one indeed.....................
certain books were rejected by the RCC due to biases that had developed in the RCC by that time.
 
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DennisTate

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Sorry. This one I don't see at all as being spiritual truth. It speaks of physical things like those used to entice Christ in the desert. The promise of a physical paradise. We seek the kingdom of God which is (in) spirit. Jesus rejected the promises of power in the physical world. (though the catholic orthodox jumped on it when Constantine offered it).

Thank you for commenting...... but I personally cannot rule out
the prediction that was shown to near death experiencer Howard Storm.

This sure seems to fit with Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the minor prophets to
me????

There is no way that I could rule out the idea of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh and creating a virtual heaven on earth by the year 2185...... if we will obey the Holy Spirit.

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience


The image of the future that they gave me then, and it was their image, not one that I created, surprised me. My image had previously been sort of like Star Wars, where everything was space age, plastics, and technology.



The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all. What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world.



And when a person became an adult, there was no sense of anxiety, nor hatred, nor competition.



There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect. If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.



What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables.



People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine.



Animals lived with people, in harmony.
 
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DennisTate

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Exactly Brother. Scripture (well, if one is to go on the premise of the naysayers) Doesn't say where the demons came from. It speaks of fallen angels, good angels, God and man. So I ask them...So where did all the demons come from that Jesus was out casting out? They can't tell me.

Enoch tells us, very plainly. They are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim which were killed in the flood. They can't leave earth.

Very intriguing indeed!

What do you think of the idea of Lucifer... falling at least centuries... if not millennia.... or more....... before the fall of Azazel and the 208 Watchers?


NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.



Jesus paused again.
"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed "adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony "sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!" (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com)
 
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Hieronymus

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The RCC created the Canon.
No they didn't.
They merely acknowledged it, and later (iirc) added some books because they were part of either (i forget..) the septuagint or the masoretic text (both are Old Testament)
 
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DennisTate

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No they didn't.
They merely acknowledged it, and later (iirc) added some books because they were part of either (i forget..) the septuagint or the masoretic text (both are Old Testament)

Personally... .I think that Phantasman is correct......

"The RCC created the Canon."

and.... the RCC was made up of human beings who had certain opinions partly due to the culture of their time.... much like The Apostle Paul.........

What Messiah Yeshua Jesus said about women..... is weightier than what Paul would say....... especially in his beginning years in ministry.

Which one of these was probably written first?



1Ti 2:12
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Did Paul write this because his set of circumstances could be compared with modern Saudi Arabia.... where a woman preaching... would bring even more persecution on Christians?


Galatians 3:28

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
 
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DennisTate

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The demons have no hope as proved out by the gospels when Jesus was casting them out they knew who he was and in Math 8 say this And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

Here we see even the demons know the end and that there is a specific destiny for them. We are told to put on the armor of God to stand against the devil. The devil is often in the church so if we fight against him we will be calling out the demonic doctrines coming out of many pulpits.

But..... the demons.... thought that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus was going to do to them........

... what they would do.... to humans who would flee away from the light / truth / love of the Life Review with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus into darkness..............
or relative darkness........

Just because demons think something about the motives of the Messiah.... does not mean that those demons are correct..................
 
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DennisTate

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I couldn't vote Brother. We should and could have to fight a fallen angel, IF the Holy Spirit leads us to. (That should have been a choice.

Back in the OT...They all made mistakes! Elijah ran from Jezebel, Moses got mad and struck the rock when he was supposed to speak to it, Jonah ran, King David...you know, Lol, and Joshua didn't finish off all those he was supposed to. So we're in good company.

I've actually thought about this before...From the way scripture reads...the last days there will be much more going on than in the OT. Bigger and more spectacular miracles and stuff. So uh, what makes us think that we get to sit down and "let God do it"? Or Elijah? Or Enoch?

I mean sure, God does it. We can do nothing without Him. But David still had to walk out onto that field with Goliath. Elijah still had to face Ahab. Moses still had to walk into Pharaohs court... Considering Matthew 24...perhaps God is going to give all or some of us our own chance to face a Goliath. Now that's a sobering thought.

But remember... the question being polled was..... "Can demons be given HOPE?"


Mat 17:10


And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things."
 
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WilliamBo

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Yep. Me too. Enoch...the most righteous man that ever lived (they'll agree to this!), so much so righteous, thatGod took him...but his book is crap...Wow.

And the first couple verses of Enoch says that it is not for that generation, but for a far distant generation during the time of trouble. (The time of Jacob's trouble, i.e., The tribulation)...uhh, Duh! That book is for US!

It's available free all over the internet, to download. I have it.

I even have a physical copy of the book of enoch. My mentor, whos a very godly man, thinks im really "weird" for reading it, the way worldly people think Christians are ''weird''
 
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DennisTate

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I even have a physical copy of the book of enoch. My mentor, whos a very godly man, thinks im really "weird" reading it, the way worldly people think Christians are ''weird''

I had it too back in the 1990's but I gave it to a good friend.......
which was no problem considering that it is easily available online.
 
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