aiki
Regular Member
I wrote:
"And in doing so you are being judgmental, too. See? It's quite impossible to be a thinking, moral person with a distinct point of view and not also be judgmental."
You replied:
"I said its up to you how you think you ought to dress and act at church. By that I mean its part of your personal walk with God. Likewise, it is between me and God what convictions He gives me on how to dress and act."
That's not exactly true, though. The Bible teaches that believers are part of a community and that what one member of that community does and believes has an effect on all the other members. Speaking of sin in the church, Paul the apostle wrote, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." If what one believer does is entirely between him and God, then Paul shouldn't have said what he did. But he seems to think quite differently than you do here. Your relationship with God is not entirely between you and Him.
You said rather more than merely "It's up to you how you think and dress at church." You very clearly criticized my more restrictive point of view on appropriate church attire. In so doing, you were judgmental. But that's okay. As I said, making judgments on things is in the nature of being a thinking person and a disciple of Christ.
You wrote:
"I never said mine is better than yours. You are the one saying your way is better than anyone who doesnt agree with you and telling people they dont respect God because they dont do what you want them to do."
Please show me where I said, "My way is better than anyone who doesn't agree with me." I also never asserted that people are disrespecting God when they don't act as I want them to. You'll find that no where in my comments in this thread. Such an idea is your contortion of my words and thoughts.
You wrote:
"I never said it was. I said that the people you think dont respect God are doing far more than the people who do."
In your small sphere of experience, perhaps. My experience is quite different.
You wrote:
Exactly, now you say so what, which was my point. Your point was that it does matter, you are now changing it.
No, I said your personal experience doesn't matter. What you've experienced is not necessarily universally true, so arguing from it as you did isn't particularly helpful.
You wrote:
"No you didnt say we/they have NO respect for God. What you said was we/they have LESS respect than you because you dress up. You must know the minds and hearts of everyone to know that."
I said nothing about "dressing up." I don't think I've used that phrase even once in everything I've written in this thread so far. I said people should dress their best when they go to worship God on a Sunday morning. That might mean only jeans and a clean t-shirt for some. For others, it might mean a three-piece suit. What is important isn't the precise kind of clothing a person wears but the attitude of respect and honor expressed toward God in one's choice of dress.
You wrote:
"I think it is a mandate of God to love our neighbour. Making people feel horribly convicted and out of place is not doing this."
I absolutely disagree with you on this. For the lost to be saved, they must feel conviction over their sin, they must see their own wickedness and rebellion toward God and recognize their desperate need of a Saviour. Helping them to these realizations is, then, among the most loving things we can do for they are necessary to genuine salvation and fellowship with God. But these realizations, for the lost sinner, are not pleasant to contemplate.
You wrote:
"It is for God to convict them in their hearts of their sin. Do you really want the unsaved to be excluded from church as that is what it sounds like. And yet you blame falling standards of dress for church attendance falling."
Of course, God convicts people of their sin. But the Church, the community of believers, is not constituted of unregenerate sinners. The lost stand outside the Church until such time as they are born-again. Until that time, they cannot worship God, nor can they truly understand His truth. What place do they have, then, in worship of God? They don't know Him; they are in fact, His enemies; they cannot offer God worship and should not be invited to a service where that is the goal.
Also, I have never made any sort of connection between falling standards of dress and falling church attendance. Where did you get that from?
You wrote:
I dont agree. God gives me conviction for my actions and using my feelings is part of that. So saying they have "little or nothing" to do with it is wrong imo.
When your feelings agree with the commands and truth and principles of God, then they may be useful in strengthening your resolve to obey God's commands, truth and principles. But it is exceedingly foolish to make your feelings any part of determining what is right or wrong, what is God-honoring and what is not.
"Feelings come, and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving.
My warrant is the word of God,
Nought else is worth believing."
I could, I suppose, take equal offense to the position you've taken that is so opposite and critical of my own. But that would not be at all in the way God calls His children to walk. So, you'll have to hold offense without my company.
Respecting God with as high a degree as possible in all we do is very much in the Bible. Read 1 Corinthians 10:31, for example.
"And in doing so you are being judgmental, too. See? It's quite impossible to be a thinking, moral person with a distinct point of view and not also be judgmental."
You replied:
"I said its up to you how you think you ought to dress and act at church. By that I mean its part of your personal walk with God. Likewise, it is between me and God what convictions He gives me on how to dress and act."
That's not exactly true, though. The Bible teaches that believers are part of a community and that what one member of that community does and believes has an effect on all the other members. Speaking of sin in the church, Paul the apostle wrote, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." If what one believer does is entirely between him and God, then Paul shouldn't have said what he did. But he seems to think quite differently than you do here. Your relationship with God is not entirely between you and Him.
You said rather more than merely "It's up to you how you think and dress at church." You very clearly criticized my more restrictive point of view on appropriate church attire. In so doing, you were judgmental. But that's okay. As I said, making judgments on things is in the nature of being a thinking person and a disciple of Christ.
You wrote:
"I never said mine is better than yours. You are the one saying your way is better than anyone who doesnt agree with you and telling people they dont respect God because they dont do what you want them to do."
Please show me where I said, "My way is better than anyone who doesn't agree with me." I also never asserted that people are disrespecting God when they don't act as I want them to. You'll find that no where in my comments in this thread. Such an idea is your contortion of my words and thoughts.
You wrote:
"I never said it was. I said that the people you think dont respect God are doing far more than the people who do."
In your small sphere of experience, perhaps. My experience is quite different.
You wrote:
Exactly, now you say so what, which was my point. Your point was that it does matter, you are now changing it.
No, I said your personal experience doesn't matter. What you've experienced is not necessarily universally true, so arguing from it as you did isn't particularly helpful.
You wrote:
"No you didnt say we/they have NO respect for God. What you said was we/they have LESS respect than you because you dress up. You must know the minds and hearts of everyone to know that."
I said nothing about "dressing up." I don't think I've used that phrase even once in everything I've written in this thread so far. I said people should dress their best when they go to worship God on a Sunday morning. That might mean only jeans and a clean t-shirt for some. For others, it might mean a three-piece suit. What is important isn't the precise kind of clothing a person wears but the attitude of respect and honor expressed toward God in one's choice of dress.
You wrote:
"I think it is a mandate of God to love our neighbour. Making people feel horribly convicted and out of place is not doing this."
I absolutely disagree with you on this. For the lost to be saved, they must feel conviction over their sin, they must see their own wickedness and rebellion toward God and recognize their desperate need of a Saviour. Helping them to these realizations is, then, among the most loving things we can do for they are necessary to genuine salvation and fellowship with God. But these realizations, for the lost sinner, are not pleasant to contemplate.
You wrote:
"It is for God to convict them in their hearts of their sin. Do you really want the unsaved to be excluded from church as that is what it sounds like. And yet you blame falling standards of dress for church attendance falling."
Of course, God convicts people of their sin. But the Church, the community of believers, is not constituted of unregenerate sinners. The lost stand outside the Church until such time as they are born-again. Until that time, they cannot worship God, nor can they truly understand His truth. What place do they have, then, in worship of God? They don't know Him; they are in fact, His enemies; they cannot offer God worship and should not be invited to a service where that is the goal.
Also, I have never made any sort of connection between falling standards of dress and falling church attendance. Where did you get that from?
You wrote:
I dont agree. God gives me conviction for my actions and using my feelings is part of that. So saying they have "little or nothing" to do with it is wrong imo.
When your feelings agree with the commands and truth and principles of God, then they may be useful in strengthening your resolve to obey God's commands, truth and principles. But it is exceedingly foolish to make your feelings any part of determining what is right or wrong, what is God-honoring and what is not.
"Feelings come, and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving.
My warrant is the word of God,
Nought else is worth believing."
No I haven't, I have found you offensive and I wont respond to you again. What you are saying is not in :the bible. John 7:24 says not to judge by appearances which is exactly what you are doing.
Most of my response got mixed up with yours when replying. Work it out yourself.
I could, I suppose, take equal offense to the position you've taken that is so opposite and critical of my own. But that would not be at all in the way God calls His children to walk. So, you'll have to hold offense without my company.
Respecting God with as high a degree as possible in all we do is very much in the Bible. Read 1 Corinthians 10:31, for example.
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