Suffer Not a Woman to Teach a Man

[razzelflabben]

Just for clarification because I explained what I grew up with in my father.

When I was married, I believed as many in the church do that my husband had final say, that he was the "word of God" in our marriage kind of thing, etc. It was my husband who pointed out to me that that makes for a horrible relationship. It was my husband that put me on a different track. As time passed and we learned to do marriage God's way I began to study the topic and that is when I really learned that man has it all wrong. Scripture interprets scripture and when we start digging deep we discover so many things we have wrong in the marriage relationship that it is kind of scary. Hope that clarifies why I say what I do before someone tries to twist it into some kind of vindictive argument against my father's teaching.

 

[ambc]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

The brain is where human knowledge comes from. Teaching involves the transmission of acquired knowledge from one human to another. Whether someone is male or female, brains are basically the same. It’s true that testosterone and estrogen affect brains differently, which results in the general differences in behavior between men and women (e.g. women are more emotional than men), but that doesn’t mean a knowledgeable female can’t teach a man something he doesn’t know.

In my opinion, the Apostle Paul, who didn’t marry and was celibate (perhaps not by choice), had problems with women which stemmed from his lack of success with them. Men who aren’t lucky with the ladies tend to develop aggression toward women. This had to be the case with Paul, and his anti-female attitude testifies to this fact.

 

[SkyWriting]

Agreed. Marriage in Christ is mutual submission to the respective roles assigned by God.

All important scriptural ideas come from multiple authors spread over time.

 

[SkyWriting]

In my opinion, the Apostle Paul, who didn’t marry and was celibate (perhaps not by choice), had problems with women which stemmed from his lack of success with them. Men who aren’t lucky with the ladies tend to develop aggression toward women. This had to be the case with Paul, and his anti-female attitude testifies to this fact.

He would have done better to quote Proverbs 31 in his own terms.

 

[Followers4christ]

Point 1: Male-female SPIRITS are seen EQUAL in the "eyes" of God.

Genesis 1:27
God created man(kind) in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 5:2
He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them Man(kind) in the day when THEY were created.

Matthew 19:4
And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Point 2: God offers salvation EQUALLY to male and female.

John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2.

Point 3: God's marriage model is for husbands and wives, NOT for the single male and female sexes.

Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they (husband and wife) shall become one flesh.

Matthew 19:5-6 (NASB)...Jesus:
and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

Point 4: Paul and Peter have given Godly guidelines of the SPIRITUAL and PRACTICAL relationships within the FAMILY.

Ephesians 5: 22-33: 6:1-4; 1 Peter 3:1-7

RE: Social practices in the USA and the rising trend of women doing the work traditionally reserved to men:
ANOTHER THREAD!

Yes as you said referred to Gen 1:27 which says God created them both male and female. The part that you left out in Gen 2:22 that woman was created from a mans rib and according to 1 Corinthians 11:7-9 it also says that woman came from man and woman is the glory of man. So as God created woman for man, God gave man leadership after the fall as we can see in 1 Tim 2:11-15.

1 Corinthians 11:7-9 A man ought not to cover his head,bsince he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

 

[AlexDTX]

How you think a woman should act?
There are no verses for that.

Its not about a woman's behavior but role.

 

[AlexDTX]

not always...sometimes He talks to the woman first and other times He talks to them both at the same time.

Again it depends on what the need is. In general it should be the husband first if he is acting in his role as the head of the house.

When I hear people talk like this all I see if pride which is sin. The husband who is revealing Christ is humble not proud, thus the opposite of what I see in this teaching. The headship is one of example not of anything else. It is a matter of living Christ.

It most certainly can be pride. But anything can be a source of pride if one has a works attitude. However, the failure of men who fall into pride does not change the divine order.

Please show this in scripture even if it is through example. BTw, glad I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying

I did before, but here it is.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
The topic is prayer and prophecy, not wearing hats. Headship is plainly stated.

 

[Followers4christ]

To many times we try to take something 2000 years ago and treat it as if its today. Back then it was so different. You can say the same for "Church". Today is nothing like it was back then. They would meet in houses and at times.. all would share. Yet.. todays CHURCH (all of us) its still one body. And yet I do agree.. men..somethings women other..

Today our Father is going to use ANYONE that simply says..HERE I AM LORD! His eyes are STILL looking

So are you saying the Bible and Jesus is outdated? You can't pick and choose which part is relevant today and which is not without making God in your own image. I believe the scriptural text surviving this long is proof that God has defended his word and the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls proved that the text have not changed. If scriptures is from God then who are you to challenge it?

Psalms 119:105 Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.

 

[AlexDTX]

As to the order of creation, woman was taken from the SIDE of man.
Not head or feet as in other stories of the time where hierarchy is indicated.
There is no good reason becasue it was a problem with one the churches at one period in time. Why is it still in scripture? Becasue men wanted it included becasue it suggests authority over women.

What is wrong with it? The roles suggested are faulty.

Proverbs 31
1The words of King Lemuel, the oracle
which his mother taught him:

11The heart of her husband trusts in her,
And he will have no lack of gain.

12She does him good and not evil
All the days of her life.

13She looks for wool and flax
And works with her hands in delight.

14She is like merchant ships;
She brings her food from afar.

15She rises also while it is still night
And gives food to her household
And portions to her maidens.

16She considers a field and buys it;
From her earnings she plants a vineyard.

17She girds herself with strength
And makes her arms strong.

18She senses that her gain is good;
Her lamp does not go out at night.

19She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
And her hands grasp the spindle.

20She extends her hand to the poor,
And she stretches out her hands to the needy.

21She is not afraid of the snow for her household,
For all her household are clothed with scarlet.

22She makes coverings for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.

23Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.

24She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies belts to the tradesmen.

25Strength and dignity are her clothing,
And she smiles at the future.

26She opens her mouth in wisdom,
And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

27She looks well to the ways of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.

28Her children rise up and bless her;
Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:

29“Many daughters have done nobly,
But you excel them all.”

30Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain,
But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.

31Give her the product of her hands,
And let her works praise her in the gates.


And it never mentions she should do all this at home.
Not many can sell clothes they make from home.
There is not much crossover from this to the epistle letters.

Always with verses irrelevant to the topic. I think you misunderstand authority for control. A man does not control a woman, he is the source from which her life came and that life in marriage continues with Christ as the head of the marriage.

 

[SkyWriting]

Its not about a woman's behavior but role.

In scripture?

22She makes coverings for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.

24She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies belts to the tradesmen.

Sounds like a business owner who you would
refuse to work for, not being a proper role and all.

 

[AlexDTX]

The brain is where human knowledge comes from. Teaching involves the transmission of acquired knowledge from one human to another. Whether someone is male or female, brains are basically the same. It’s true that testosterone and estrogen affect brains differently, which results in the general differences in behavior between men and women (e.g. women are more emotional than men), but that doesn’t mean a knowledgeable female can’t teach a man something he doesn’t know.

It is not about the brain, it is about divine order.
1Pe_3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

In my opinion, the Apostle Paul, who didn’t marry and was celibate (perhaps not by choice), had problems with women which stemmed from his lack of success with them. Men who aren’t lucky with the ladies tend to develop aggression toward women. This had to be the case with Paul, and his anti-female attitude testifies to this fact.

He was not married at the time of the epistles being written, but in Jewish culture it was a disgrace for a man not to be married. It is likely he was a widower.

Sounds like you are not married. Have you read the Bible? Paul liberated women through the fuller realization of the Gospel that the Jews misunderstood.

 

[AlexDTX]

Sounds like a business owner who you would
refuse to work for, not being a proper role and all.

Proverbs 31 is a wife working for her family.

Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

 

[Followers4christ]

Thanks for your post. As I was saying in my initial response, every passage in which this matter is discussed ends up being poorly translated because they consistently render the Greek word incorrectly in these contexts. γυναικί in 1 Timothy 2:12 and γυναῖκες in 1 Corinthians 14:34 should be translated as wife and wives respectively, not "woman" and "women." This is why Paul ends 1 Corinthians 14:34 with the words "as the law says." This is a reference to Genesis 3:16, which again is a marriage context, the exact same one Paul refers to in 1 Timothy 2:13-15.

If that was all true in 1 Tim 3:2 when talking about church leadership it would not say an overseer must be a "husband" of one wife. Yes it refers to marriage as talking about a husband and wife. But it's much deeper then that as it also tells the roles in a church setting as the other scriptures I gave you.

1 Tim 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

 

[SkyWriting]

Proverbs 31 is a wife working for her family.

Please don't be an old blind soul on the streets.

13She looks for wool and flax
And works with her hands in delight.

14She is like merchant ships;
She brings her food from afar.

15She rises also while it is still night
And gives food to her household
And portions to her maidens.

16She considers a field and buys it;
From her earnings she plants a vineyard.

17She girds herself with strength
And makes her arms strong.

18She senses that her gain is good;
Her lamp does not go out at night.

24She makes linen garments
and sells them,
and supplies belts to the tradesmen.

And all this before the NT was written
where Jesus gave women equal attention
and annoyed his men-followers.

Yes, women owning businesses or not even being home also work for their families.

 

[SkyWriting]

Always with verses irrelevant to the topic. I think you misunderstand authority for control. A man does not control a woman, he is the source from which her life came and that life in marriage continues with Christ as the head of the marriage.

No, he is not the source from where her life came.
You are not Adam. You came from your mom.
You need to be born again to be of God.
Not born again from your mom in her servant role.

 

[SkyWriting]

Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

A two income family with hired help. Read the lines.

 

[OzSpen]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

Alex,

I take a view from the whole context of the Book of 1 Timothy where Timothy is in Ephesus and 1 Tim 2:9-15 is dealing with an Ephesian heresy in the Ephesian church and the women were told that they should not teach this heresy.

It was a temporary prohibition against women teaching heresy and was never meant to be a teaching to close down all women in a mixed gathering throughout Christian history - which it has become in some denominations.

My understanding of the use of the example of Adam & the woman (Eve), with the woman being deceived was to link with the women of Ephesus deceived into teaching the Ephesian heresy.

Billy Graham has said that the best preacher in his family is his daughter, Anne Graham Lotz. That means he considers her a superior preacher to son, Franklin, and himself.

I give my reasoning in the article, Must women never teach men in the church?

I note that elsewhere in Scripture there are examples of teaching without limitation to males. I think of Col 3:16 (NIV):

'Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts'.​

Nothing is said here about this teaching restricted to men but it's available to 'one another'.

What about Eph 4:11-13 (NIV)?

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.​

No restriction is placed here on limiting apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to males.

We know that there were female prophets in both OT and NT. See HERE. If prophets were not restricted to males, why should teachers to mixed audiences be males only in this list of ministry gifts in Eph 4:11-12?

See the article, 'Women church leaders in the New Testament'.

Therefore, I do not consider that 1 Tim 2:12 is meant to close down women in teaching ministry permanently. It was a temporary restriction so that they did not teach the Ephesian Heresy.

Oz

 

[SkyWriting]

So are you saying the Bible and Jesus is outdated? You can't pick and choose which part is relevant today and which is not without making God in your own image. I believe the scriptural text surviving this long is proof that God has defended his word and the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls proved that the text have not changed. If scriptures is from God then who are you to challenge it?

The epistles apply to churches of the time.
We know that Proverbs is for everyone.
Prov 31 describes a two income family.

 

[SkyWriting]

It is not about the brain, it is about divine order.
1Pe_3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge,
giving honour unto the wife,
as unto the weaker vessel,
and as being heirs together of the grace of life;
that your prayers be not hindered.

That highlighted passage is actually about "brawn."
This is contrasted with "and as being heirs..."

I don't think you'll find much support if you
insist that the ladies are less able to hold on to knowledge
as the alternate reading of the passage.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If that was all true in 1 Tim 3:2 when talking about church leadership it would not say an overseer must be a "husband" of one wife. Yes it refers to marriage as talking about a husband and wife. But it's much deeper then that as it also tells the roles in a church setting as the other scriptures I gave you.

1 Tim 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

I understand what you are saying. But let me quote again my response to another poster:

This is why none of the twelve disciples whom Christ chose were women. But that does NOT mean it is impossible for women, married or not, to pastor. It just means they may face occasions where exercising the authority described in 1 Timothy 5:20, 2 Timothy 4:2 and Titus 1:13 will become complicated, and may require outside help, because it would be inappropriate for her to do so.

The situation not only becomes more complicated, but it would have been out of keeping the patriarchal societies that existed throughout the ancient world during New Testament times. Does that mean it is to be regarded as improper in our time? Cultural changes have led to it being regarded as much more acceptable in the modern era.

If you'll notice, the verse you quoted specified that an overseer needed to be the husband of one wife, implying that if he had two wives that this would disqualify him from that office because his obligations would be too great already. Cultural changes in our time have made it so polygamy is not just viewed as an increased obligation. It is either outlawed in some regions or at the very least deeply frown upon. The reason I bring it up is to show how changes in culture can have an impact on what is viewed as acceptable practice by the church. Once society begins viewing something as improper, the church comes under increasing obligation not to engage in those activities. But should activities that were once considered improper begin to be viewed as acceptable, this now opens the door for the church to begin walking in them without fear of being seen as immoral. The same changes have happened in the last few centuries regarding slavery.

My point is that cultural norms during New testament times were also having an strong effect on leadership norms within the church. Those norms are no longer present in secular society, and a case should be made that they no longer need to be in the church either. If not, we appear backwards, and unnecessarily so.