Suffer Not a Woman to Teach a Man

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SkyWriting

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Always with verses irrelevant to the topic

I am afraid, young poster, your memory has faded.
you requested.....
my thoughts.

Let me go check on that....Yup, sure enough, you did say:

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

This opens the door to thoughts OTHERS find relevant.
If not relevant, you may report me using the handy !! button.
 
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AlexDTX

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Please don't be an old blind soul on the streets.

Yes, women owning businesses or not even being home also work for their families.

This thread is not about women working, it is about women having authority over men. The old blind soul, is you, since you don't know how to follow a point.
 
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ambc

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That highlighted passage is actually about "brawn."
This is contrasted with "and as being heirs..."

I don't think you'll find much support if you
insist that the ladies are less able to hold on to knowledge
as the alternate reading of the passage.

I don't think he is suggesting that women are less capable of teaching or holding onto knowledge than men. He is basically saying that the Bible commands men to rule over women, which isn't true.

If God intended men to be masters over women, he would have created Eve from Adam's foot, not his rib, lol. Joking aside, there aren't any verses in the Bible that say or suggest women are inferior to men.
 
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AlexDTX

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Alex,

I take a view from the whole context of the Book of 1 Timothy where Timothy is in Ephesus and 1 Tim 2:9-15 is dealing with an Ephesian heresy in the Ephesian church and the women were told that they should not teach this heresy.

It was a temporary prohibition against women teaching heresy and was never meant to be a teaching to close down all women in a mixed gathering throughout Christian history - which it has become in some denominations.

My understanding of the use of the example of Adam & the woman (Eve), with the woman being deceived was to link with the women of Ephesus deceived into teaching the Ephesian heresy.

Billy Graham has said that the best preacher in his family is his daughter, Anne Graham Lotz. That means he considers her a superior preacher to son, Franklin, and himself.

I give my reasoning in the article, Must women never teach men in the church?

I note that elsewhere in Scripture there are examples of teaching without limitation to males. I think of Col 3:16 (NIV):

'Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts'.​

Nothing is said here about this teaching restricted to men but it's available to 'one another'.

What about Eph 4:11-13 (NIV)?

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.​

No restriction is placed here on limiting apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to males.

We know that there were female prophets in both OT and NT. See HERE. If prophets were not restricted to males, why should teachers to mixed audiences be males only in this list of ministry gifts in Eph 4:11-12?


See the article, 'Women church leaders in the New Testament'.

Therefore, I do not consider that 1 Tim 2:12 is meant to close down women in teaching ministry permanently. It was a temporary restriction so that they did not teach the Ephesian Heresy.

Oz
All good points Wiz of Oz. But as I have said repeatedly, my concern regards women in the work place, not the Church and the emasculation of men with the increase of wives divorcing husbands and women not marrying at all.
 
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AlexDTX

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He is basically saying that the Bible commands men to rule over women, which isn't true.
Thank you for your defense, but I am not saying that either. I am talking about women supervisors in the work place, and the destruction of marriages with women taking on the headship of the home, along with rampant divorce which is more often instigated by women.
 
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SkyWriting

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I don't think he is suggesting that women are less capable of teaching or holding onto knowledge than men. He is basically saying that the Bible commands men to rule over women, which isn't true.

If God intended men to be masters over women, he would have created Eve from Adam's foot, not his rib, lol. Joking aside, there aren't any verses in the Bible that say or suggest women are inferior to men.

No, that's not a joke. There are older stories that define hierarchy
where the feet or head are used to indicate rank.
 
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SkyWriting

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Thank you for your defense, but I am not saying that either. I am talking about women supervisors in the work place, and the destruction of marriages with women taking on the headship of the home, along with rampant divorce which is more often instigated by women.

What a load of bologna. "Women heading the home" are due to
the failure of men to take parenting their own children seriously.
That and only that.
 
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disciple1

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But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.
Not allowing a women to teach is about the law that no one obeys.

If you really want to go the whole way with the law look at this verse.

1 Corinthians chapter 14 verse 34
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

Romans chapter 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.
 
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ambc

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Thank you for your defense, but I am not saying that either. I am talking about women supervisors in the work place, and the destruction of marriages with women taking on the headship of the home, along with rampant divorce which is more often instigated by women.

In American culture today, girls are sleeping around with socially adept "bad boys" before getting married while passing up many good men. When those women approach their early to mid-thirties, their youthful beauty has faded and the guys they want are no longer interested in them, so they settle for a "nice guy" husband who typically has much less experience with the opposite gender. Since their husbands aren't as thrilling and interesting as their numerous former lovers, divorce is likely to ensue. So if you want to blame something for the high divorce rates, blame hook-up culture.

By the way, I understand your concerns. As a 28-year-old, I also fear marrying a working, educated spinster around my age and who isn't a virgin. It's too hard to trust them knowing that divorce is common among these women, who instigate the marital break-up 70% of the time. That is why I plan on marrying a younger girl without a college education who must depend on me, possibly a foreign wife from a poor nation.
 
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SkyWriting

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But as I have said repeatedly, my concern regards women in the work place,
This thread is not about women working,
Logic - Fail

Women can own companies, create goods, sell their
wares, provide a second income, but not supervise any of this.

Logic - Fail
Scripture - Fail

22She makes coverings for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.

23Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.

24She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
 
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Traveling teacher

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The authority structure of man in authotity over women came from the fall in the beginning....genesis 3:16
Your deaire will be towrd your husband and he shall rule over you......
It is not a NT only law from God......
There is authority structure in almost every organisation and animal society...where 1 person or animal is in charge
Anything elses is caos or a 2 headed moster....
That being said anyone in authority must handle it with humility and not lord over others.....
Husbands love your wives and dont be harsh....
colossians 3:19. 1 peter 3:7

In any Godly order we must respect those put in authority.
Ex. Bosses, husbands , pastors, police, president.....
Romans 13:1-7
Anything less is rebellion....
 
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SkyWriting

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Yes, , says me. I wrote the OP. This is my thread.
And you are failing.
Women in the workplace are not the subject, women in the workplace are the subject, you are interested to hear others, you are not interested unless you feel it is relevant....it just keeps going like a sink drain.
 
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AlexDTX

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So if you want to blame something for the high divorce rates, blame hook-up culture.
I am 64 and a product of the sexual revolution of the 1960's. It was very destructive to our society. But the blame really belongs on the men, too. Just because the women are willing to give up their treasure, we should not have so freely taken it. Little has been said on the damage done to men who have unbridled lust.

By the way, I understand your concerns. As a 28-year-old, I also fear marrying a working, educated spinster around my age and who isn't a virgin. It's too hard to trust them knowing that divorce is common among these women, who instigate the marital break-up 70% of the time. That is why I plan on marrying a younger girl without a college education who must depend on me, possibly a foreign wife from a poor nation.
I understand. I wanted a younger wife, too. However, a woman of your peer will have more in common with you. Lord I pray you bring him the woman of your will into his life for a mate.
 
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SkyWriting

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The authority structure of man in authotity over women came from the fall in the beginning....genesis 3:16
Your deaire will be towrd your husband and he shall rule over you......
It is not a NT only law from God......
There is authority structure in almost every organisation and animal society...where 1 person or animal is in charge
Anything elses is caos or a 2 headed moster....
That being said anyone in authority must handle it with humility and not lord over others.....
Husbands love your wives and dont be harsh....
colossians 3:19. 1 peter 3:7

In any Godly order we must respect those put in authority.
Ex. Bosses, husbands , pastors, police, president.....
Romans 13:1-7
Anything less is rebellion....

So your stand is equally that women should not have pain killers
during pregnancy. Start a church with that one my friend. G'head :oldthumbsup:

It is right there in your foundation passage for all mankind to follow.
Right there, plain as day.

God requires pain.
 
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AlexDTX

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The authority structure of man in authotity over women came from the fall in the beginning....genesis 3:16
Your deaire will be towrd your husband and he shall rule over you......
It is not a NT only law from God......
There is authority structure in almost every organisation and animal society...where 1 person or animal is in charge
Anything elses is caos or a 2 headed moster....
That being said anyone in authority must handle it with humility and not lord over others.....
Husbands love your wives and dont be harsh....
colossians 3:19. 1 peter 3:7

In any Godly order we must respect those put in authority.
Ex. Bosses, husbands , pastors, police, president.....
Romans 13:1-7
Anything less is rebellion....

Thank you for your feedback. The fall brought the issue of "rule" but I do not regard "authority" and "rule" as synonyms. Authority has the root word, "author", as its stem. The author is the source of something. The word rule is the same word as ruler, which is measurement devise. A king who is a ruler sets the standard for a kingdom. The word king itself is an old English word that means cane, or yardstick.


The biblical use of the word "head", such as Christ is the head of man, and man the head of woman (1 Cor. 11:3) means "source" not "rule". Which is the reference to Adam and Eve coming from the source of Adam. So, no, biblical headship does not come from the fall, but from the creation.
 
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Traveling teacher

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the rebellion of the 1960s
Sexual imorality
Womens lib and rebellion against there husbands
Caused major damge to marriages in the USA
Before this the divorce rate was around 5-10%
Depending if you were Christian or not
Now it is around 40-60%
Less if you are a faithful church going christian

In traditional societies that still hold purity and respect to husbands the divorce rate is still around the rates before 1960s
Example : middle east , china and india
And other traditional societies
 
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