Suffer Not a Woman to Teach a Man

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Followers4christ

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The epistles apply to churches of the time.
We know that Proverbs is for everyone.
Prov 31 describes a two income family.

Not sure what your point is as I never said anything about a two income household only about women leading the church not about working.
 
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Followers4christ

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I understand what you are saying. But let me quote again my response to another poster:


The situation not only becomes more complicated, but it would have been out of keeping the patriarchal societies that existed throughout the ancient world during New Testament times. Does that mean it is to be regarded as improper in our time? Cultural changes have led to it being regarded as much more acceptable in the modern era.

If you'll notice, the verse you quoted specified that an overseer needed to be the husband of one wife, implying that if he had two wives that this would disqualify him from that office because his obligations would be too great already. Cultural changes in our time have made it so polygamy is not just viewed as an increased obligation. It is either outlawed in some regions or at the very least deeply frown upon. The reason I bring it up is to show how changes in culture can have an impact on what is viewed as acceptable practice by the church. Once society begins viewing something as improper, the church comes under increasing obligation not to engage in those activities. But should activities that were once considered improper begin to be viewed as acceptable, this now opens the door for the church to begin walking in them without fear of being seen as immoral. The same changes have happened in the last few centuries regarding slavery.

My point is that cultural norms during New testament times were also having an strong effect on leadership norms within the church. Those norms are no longer present in secular society, and a case should be made that they no longer need to be in the church either. If not, we appear backwards, and unnecessarily so.

First to address the polygamy thing I believe this site said it best:

"Paul compares the husband and wife to Christ and the church: “For the husband is the head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church...” (Ephesian 5:23). In (Ephesians 1:22,23) we are told that the church is the body of Christ. There is only one body (Ephesians 4:4) so there is only one church. A man can have as many wives as Christ has churches. Christ has only one church so a man can have only one wife. Nowhere does the Bible speak of a man (one) being over wives (many) and that being right with God."

International Bible Teaching Ministries

God never supported anyone having more then one wife or more then one husband. As Genesis points out a man and a woman will become one flesh, not saying anything about multiple partners.

Now for my second point are you saying Christianity is outdated? As I said earlier you cant pick and choose what is relevant today and what isn't as you will fall in the trap of making God in to your own image instead of the other way around. God has preserved and defended his word that has reached billions throughout the generations. The scriptural texts speak for itself and it is not outdated. We are the ones that are trying to mold the scriptures to fit our lives instead of letting the scriptures mold us to being better examples of what it means to be a Christian. The Bible does not change with the fads or trends nor are we supposed to fit in to this world. The Bible claims if you are of this world you are not with Christ. So let's stop claiming that it is not relevant today when the Bible is the most relevant set of books in existence today. Without the scriptures it is impossible to know Jesus Christ or how one is saved.
 
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Followers4christ

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I don't think he is suggesting that women are less capable of teaching or holding onto knowledge than men. He is basically saying that the Bible commands men to rule over women, which isn't true.

If God intended men to be masters over women, he would have created Eve from Adam's foot, not his rib, lol. Joking aside, there aren't any verses in the Bible that say or suggest women are inferior to men.

1 Peter 3:4-7 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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So, you have an issue with female bosses in the workplace? Yeah, ran into that once...he didn't last 2 weeks. I owned my own company and since it was small, I was the boss. Hired a guy with great qualifications but discovered he was some sort of fundamentalist who didn't believe in taking instruction in any way from a woman. Umm...dude, I'm the boss, I hand out assignments. I'm not going to tell some man to tell you about it. Do what I assign you or hit the door. He hit the door (well, actually I fired him for insubordination).

Men and women BOTH need to stop this stupid competition thing. If a woman is more qualified, then she gets the job. If the man is more qualified, then he gets the job. If you feel that a woman boss "emasculates" you when she corrects you, then it's YOU with the problem, not the woman. To me, I see it as the man's ego and pride just can't handle someone, especially a woman, being smarter, higher up on the ladder or better at a job than he is. My advice? Get over it and come into the 21st century dude.
 
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Followers4christ

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So, you have an issue with female bosses in the workplace? Yeah, ran into that once...he didn't last 2 weeks. I owned my own company and since it was small, I was the boss. Hired a guy with great qualifications but discovered he was some sort of fundamentalist who didn't believe in taking instruction in any way from a woman. Umm...dude, I'm the boss, I hand out assignments. I'm not going to tell some man to tell you about it. Do what I assign you or hit the door. He hit the door (well, actually I fired him for insubordination).

Men and women BOTH need to stop this stupid competition thing. If a woman is more qualified, then she gets the job. If the man is more qualified, then he gets the job. If you feel that a woman boss "emasculates" you when she corrects you, then it's YOU with the problem, not the woman. To me, I see it as the man's ego and pride just can't handle someone, especially a woman, being smarter, higher up on the ladder or better at a job than he is. My advice? Get over it and come into the 21st century dude.
I have nothing against women in the work place nor about being placed in authority over me. But I do have something against women being pastors which the very book they preach from condemns it. That's where I disagree with and also in marriage the Bible claims men are supposed to be the head of the family. But I have nothing against women in the work place or in authority outside the home and church. But the home and the church it is biblical for the men to lead.

So is the Bible outdated? As you claim we should come over to the "21st century". Stop trying to pick and choose what scriptures are relevant today as I have stated already you are making God in to your own image by doing this instead of the other way around.
 
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GUANO

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I think this speaks more to the weakness on the man's side and is a practical way to form an organization which is meant to take every means necessary not to do any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

If nobody is offended or made weak by it then it is no problem.
 
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Penny Feeley

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Neither Mary nor Elizabeth were supervisors in work, nor were they authorities over their husband or groom to be. There is neither male nor female in Christ means that God has no respect of persons. The favor of God is upon all who trust Christ. That is not question of the OP. I speak of authority over men at work.
 
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Conker

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Greetings Alex.

I take the position that the teaching is not addressed to women in general but to wives, specifically because in agreeing to become a wife they would take on the role of reflecting the bride of Christ (i.e. the church), who is clearly subordinate to the Lord (Ephesians 5:23-24). The reason why this is not commonly understood is because most translations choose the word "woman" over "wife" in such passages, though the Greek could be translated either way.

A proper rendering of your passage, then, would be as follows:

"Let the wife learn in silence, with all subjection. But I suffer not a wife to teach nor usurp authority over [her] husband, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman (i.e. his wife) being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

You see how much better the translation of wife fits in with the context? He's talking about wives usurping authority (over husbands). He then talks about Adam and Eve (the first husband and wife) to reference how she decided to teach her husband and things didn't go so well. And then mentions childbearing. Unmarried women are nowhere encouraged in scripture to bear children, thus this entire passage is talking about married women, as are several other passages on this same theme.

I would normally say you're a crazy person, trying just putting out your liberal views without facts, but in that context what you say really made sense and Im glad you commented. (But it also applies to women)
 
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Neogaia777

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I personally like to drop in from time to time and see how the women are being taught spiritually, by other women in spiritual matters...

Were all human beings, and women and men as human beings, are not really that much different... Our emotions and feelings and personal problems and difficulties and scars and baggage are not that much different....

So, your saying that women pastors cannot be women pastors unless their teaching other women only...?

Is it wrong for a man to look into this...? Or watch this in action...? For perspective, for understanding...?

God Bless!
 
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Paidiske

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I still see a problem that is destroying our society as women reject marriage and motherhood for careers.

If that is a problem - I'm not so convinced that it is, most women I know want to become mothers - then part of the problem is that our society forces a choice between the two. Instead of making it as easy for women to combine having children and working as it is for men, we make it much harder, and then berate women when they have to choose one or the other.

Roles are for you to decide for yourself.

Actually, I disagree. Roles are about how we interact with one another. They are, for that reason, negotiated rather than self-determined.

Its not about a woman's behavior but role.

Doesn't role dictate appropriate behaviour, though?

Neogaia, you're welcome to drop in on me preaching any time. ;)
 
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The Brown Brink

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But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

My interpretation of this idea is that it's good safety advice.
Women are physically vulnerable.
It's safer for them to be quiet.
Right or wrong, a man's ego carries threat.

It's just good safety advice.
 
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Neogaia777

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My interpretation of this idea is that it's good safety advice.
Women are physically vulnerable.
It's safer for them to be quiet.
Right or wrong, a man's ego carries threat.

It's just good safety advice.
So, women should be in fear of a man or men...?

That's not right...

If a man cannot keep himself from abusing a woman, no matter what she says or does, then that's not a man, but a boy...
 
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RedPonyDriver

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My interpretation of this idea is that it's good safety advice.
Women are physically vulnerable.
It's safer for them to be quiet.
Right or wrong, a man's ego carries threat.

It's just good safety advice.

So women ought to just shut up because a man can't control his temper? Bubba, you ain't seen mine. SOME women are physically vulnerable. So are SOME men. If a man's ego causes him to lash out, then he needs a good, swift kick in the ego and learn how to step back and develop self-control...you remember that, don't you? I believe it's mentioned in Galatians as part of the "fruit of the spirit". But, if you want to get all ego on me...look out...I have an ego and a temper too.
 
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The Brown Brink

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So women ought to just shut up because a man can't control his temper? Bubba, you ain't seen mine. SOME women are physically vulnerable. So are SOME men. If a man's ego causes him to lash out, then he needs a good, swift kick in the ego and learn how to step back and develop self-control...you remember that, don't you? I believe it's mentioned in Galatians as part of the "fruit of the spirit". But, if you want to get all ego on me...look out...I have an ego and a temper too.


Yes, but you're willing to take the consequences.
You are strong and sure.
Many women aren't.
Many women cannot afford a battle.
They have too many other concerns.

It's just good safety advice.
 
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