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Suffer Not a Woman to Teach a Man

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by AlexDTX, Sep 15, 2017.

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  1. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I am having problems finding my notes, as far as word study goes, the quickest way for me to evidence that is go to strong's concordance online then look at the Thayer's Lexicon they have on that sight. I can help further if you are having problems with it but it's pretty simple once you get the hang of it.

    A couple other things while I am here. First if you notice Proverbs 31 the Wife of Noble character, this is the picture of a wife living both in submission and as a godly wife should. One of the things I discovered when I did this study...well, let me back up just a moment. I have been studying Biblical Love full time for over 10 years now in one of the studies we looked at how to Love in our relationships. That led us to compare Isaiah 53 how Christ loved the church with Proverbs 31 the wife of noble character. I strongly suggest anyone interested in understanding roles do the study it is amaze but way to long to include here. So back to what I wanted to say...in that study I looked not only at what was directly stated and cross referenced that with the totality of scripture but I also looked at the symbolism. In that passage, the wife of noble character talks to, does business with, etc. the powerful men in the community this is in the form of business but notice she also sits at the temple gates. This is the place where the "teachers" or men sat to discuss the things of God...kind of like sitting in church and talking about what scripture says and teaches. IOW's she not only does business with the powerful men of the world at the time but she also sits among the teachers of the temple and contributes.

    So three things to summarize...1. the word study 2. the study is amazingly helpful 3. the wife of noble character is both authority in business and in church whether that applies to the teaching in question or not I will leave to you to decide.
     
  2. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    Another word of caution for all of us including myself...don't judge all woman in authority by the experiences you have with one. Personally we went to a church with a woman pastor (interim) and the experience was horrifying by contrast my husband went to school with a woman pastor and said the experience was wonderful. We as people tend to judge everyone based on one experience and that is not a good idea.
     
  3. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are right. The Bible is written for the Church. However, the Church, i.e., each of us as individuals are called to be salt and light to the world. That means we are to be a voice in the court of public opinion and contributors to the market place of ideas.

    As for Paul's comment, others have pointed out, and I agree, they refer to husbands and wives. The women prophets were not supervisors in the work force, nor did they have an administrative position in Israel. They spoke on behalf of God when the need was there. The Levites were the administrators of Israel until they brought in kings.
     
  4. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agreed. Marriage in Christ is mutual submission to the respective roles assigned by God.
     
  5. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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  6. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That God has made us all for different roles. 1 Cor. 12 makes it clear that not all have the same role or function. If all were the eye where is the ear? My point is that it is destructive to the Church and to society for the roles to be misused. But if you don't understand the point of the OP, I have nothing more to say to you.
     
  7. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    None of your verses fit the topic.
     
  8. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First of all, I am not your son. I am 64. Second, the story was not about the woman, it was about the wrong tool being used and damage due to it abuse. While the sharpening and cleaning would have been appreciated, but you still miss the point. It would not have needed repair if the tool was used correctly.
     
  9. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    true enough but I think it is more as well....think about the usurping of authority. Man is no more allowed to usurp authority than a woman, both are to wait for God. Likewise both are to live in submission, etc. The difference in roles isn't so much a difference in roles per say as it is a difference in what those roles say to the world about Christ and His relationship with us. Hope that makes sense
     
  10. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Adam's presence is likely, and yes it is within my authority to judge Adam's behavior. You are continuing to beat a drum to a different tune and further conversation is a waste of time. Pick up your tune when the topic is about the golden rule.
     
  11. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In marriage the man is the head, not the woman. 1 Corinthians 11 begins with the order of communication. God, Jesus, husband, wife. The topic in chapter 11 is prayer and prophecy. The point is that God speaks to Jesus who speaks first to the husband, then the wife. Mutual submission is a double check on knowing the will of God. Both should be in agreement. However, the order of communication is still the husband first as the head of the house.
     
  12. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    amen, without question. But if we look at that from the standpoint of Ephesians 5 what we see is that the husband as head means he lives Christ in front of his wife just as Christ lived God in front of the world. IOW's lots of people want to inflate this headship into something it is not. What it really means is that you live a life that reflects God and His Lordship to your wife as an example of Christ's revelation to the world. The headship of the husband is Christ who lived our God's commands in front of us as an example....
    If by this you mean that the wife cannot hear from Christ I would have to strongly disagree. Christ is never under any circumstance to be ignored or disobeyed in exchange for obeying any man. Never...when a woman gives herself to Christ, Christ becomes her all not her husband.

    I am not sure that is what you meant but my father was one who tried to claim that the wife has to go through the husband for her salvation not through Christ and so I know the teaching is out there and it is quite frankly sinful teaching.
     
  13. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    The word can either be translated as women or as wives. Context generally indicates which is meant. In I Tim 2:12 it goes on to speak of Adam and Eve and childrearing, so 'wives' is the stronger translation.
     
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  14. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What I mean is that the husband is the first source of Christ. Head as in the headwaters. Christ talks to the wife, but he talks to the husband first.
    Heaven forbid, no. In reference to the marriage, as I said, the Lord speaks first to the husband. But the wife has an independent relation with Christ of her own. He speaks to her about things He does not speak to the husband for they pertain to her. But matters that concern them both, He speaks to the husband first.
     
  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    We don't know that Adam was present. Sorry.
     
  16. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    The "Issue" is you assume that God says women should not
    use your tools or step outside of your imagined role for them.

    That still has ZERO to do with Gender. Sorry young student.

    I have worked for two woman owned companies.
    You would not make it past entry-level equipment
    cleaner in a Medical Home Care Company.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  17. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    There are a few verses in the Bible, like I Tim 2:11-15, that are subject to wildly varying interpretations. As such, it is important that when we go to study them we pay particular attention to the context of the passage, the Greek text, other scriptures, etc.

    Other scriptures

    Studying other scriptures will help us narrow down what is meant by the text, for scriptures will not contradict:

    In Judges 4-5; we are introduced to Deborah, a female judge of Israel who 'judges disputes'. While not a teaching position, this is a type of authority. It is not clear if Deborah was married or not. In Rom 6:1-2, Paul mentions Phoebe who has been a 'commander of many' or a 'presider before many', including Paul himself, which indicates some form of position of authority. It is quite likely that Phoebe was a widow. In Col 4:15 and Acts 12:12 we see women opening their homes and hosting churches. While not positions of spiritual authority, this would carry with it some administrative and financial authority.
    [For more information on Phoebe and the greek word prostasis, see SBL Publications.]

    In Acts 18:18-28, Priscilla is mentioned as a teacher alongside of her husband. In II Tim 1:5, Prov 31:1, and Prov 31:26 scripture speaks of women teaching their own children, including male children. Several verses speak of women testifying to Christ (John 20:18, Luke 2:36-38, Luke 19:37-40), evangelizing (John 20:18, Luke 2:36-38, Luke 19:37-40, Rom 16:7), praying in the assembly (Acts 1:14, Acts 2:41-42),and prophesying (II Kings 22:15-20, Acts 2:17-18, Luke 1:16-55, I Cor 11:5).
    [More on Junia, a female apostle: Was Junia/Junias a female apostle?]

    With these scriptures in mind, it becomes clear that I Tim 2:11-15 cannot be a blanket prohibition against any form of teaching or any form of authority that any female might have over any male.

    This leads into the next topic of study, which is what this passage is saying in Greek.


    Greek text

    In greek, the word for woman is the same as the word for wife.
    Strong's Greek: 1135. γυνή (guné) -- a woman

    Context usually narrows down which is meant. As the very next two verses mention Adam and Eve (husband and wife) and childbearing (mothers only), the strength of the context leans towards I Tim 2:11 being written to wives, not women in general such as widows.

    The greek phrase 'teach and have authority' is a Greek hendiady; an idiom that joins the two terms together, much like the English phrase 'hit and run' joins two concepts. As such, the terms are meant to be taken as a whole, not separately. A wife is not to teach AND take authority over her husband. This does not exclude her from teaching her children, having a position of authority over men out in the world (like CEO of a company), etc.

    A third point in the Greek text is the word for authority itself that it used, authenteó, denotes an agressive or self-appointed, even violent taking of authority. Authenteo means to unilaterally take up arms, to act as an autocrat, to self-appoint oneself to a position of authority, to take dominion over, to usurp authority - in essence to act without submission. This follows well with Paul's early command that wives learn in submission. To usurp authority is the exact opposite of willingly placing oneself under authority.

    Delegated authority, such as a board of elders appointing a woman as head of Children's ministries, a wife teaching alongside her husband like Priscilla, women speaking up in a Bible study, women sharing a verse or testimony, a woman being asked to speak at a convention, a woman appointed as deacon or courier, etc. Would not classify as a woman seizing authority.

    http://ebible.com/answers/14663?ori=167400
    http://ebible.com/answers/9218?ori=167400
    http://ebible.com/answers/15056?ori=167400
     
  18. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    How you think a woman should act?
    There are no verses for that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  19. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    having trouble with my computer, sorry
    not always...sometimes He talks to the woman first and other times He talks to them both at the same time.

    I want to say something that you might find offensive but I do not mean it to be offensive. In fact, I only say it because of my experience with my father's hearsay please take it as intended.

    When I hear people talk like this all I see if pride which is sin. The husband who is revealing Christ is humble not proud, thus the opposite of what I see in this teaching. The headship is one of example not of anything else. It is a matter of living Christ.

    Look at Isaiah 53:1 how Christ Loved the church (Again refer to Ephesians 5 where the husband is to love the wife as Christ loved the church thus a perfect picture of headship) In verse 1 Christ reveals to the church His love for He. There is a whole study about that revelation but cliff note version is that He revealed His love for her through servant hood not through anything else. Nothing in scripture says that Christ heard the message from God first but rather that the message was revealed to the disciples as well, etc. The example of headship that Christ gave husbands is one of humility and service it is not about words or orders or dominance or any of the many things man has tried to place over women but rather it is pure and simple LOVE (Biblical) service and humility. A husband who can love his wife through the same example is a man not only worthy of a wife of noble character but one who is truly head of his household. To be the head means leading through example and nothing more or less at least if we use Christ as our example of headship.
    Please show this in scripture even if it is through example. BTw, glad I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying
     
  20. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    As to the order of creation, woman was taken from the SIDE of man.
    Not head or feet as in other stories of the time where hierarchy is indicated.
    There is no good reason becasue it was a problem with one the churches at one period in time. Why is it still in scripture? Becasue men wanted it included becasue it suggests authority over women.

    What is wrong with it? The roles suggested are faulty.

    Proverbs 31
    1The words of King Lemuel, the oracle
    which his mother taught him:

    11The heart of her husband trusts in her,
    And he will have no lack of gain.

    12She does him good and not evil
    All the days of her life.

    13She looks for wool and flax
    And works with her hands in delight.

    14She is like merchant ships;
    She brings her food from afar.

    15She rises also while it is still night
    And gives food to her household
    And portions to her maidens.

    16She considers a field and buys it;
    From her earnings she plants a vineyard.

    17She girds herself with strength
    And makes her arms strong.

    18She senses that her gain is good;
    Her lamp does not go out at night.

    19She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
    And her hands grasp the spindle.

    20She extends her hand to the poor,
    And she stretches out her hands to the needy.

    21She is not afraid of the snow for her household,
    For all her household are clothed with scarlet.

    22She makes coverings for herself;
    Her clothing is fine linen and purple.

    23Her husband is known in the gates,
    When he sits among the elders of the land.

    24She makes linen garments and sells them,
    And supplies belts to the tradesmen.

    25Strength and dignity are her clothing,
    And she smiles at the future.

    26She opens her mouth in wisdom,
    And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.

    27She looks well to the ways of her household,
    And does not eat the bread of idleness.

    28Her children rise up and bless her;
    Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:

    29“Many daughters have done nobly,
    But you excel them all.”

    30Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain,
    But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.

    31Give her the product of her hands,
    And let her works praise her in the gates.


    And it never mentions she should do all this at home.
    Not many can sell clothes they make from home.
    There is not much crossover from this to the epistle letters.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
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