Suffer Not a Woman to Teach a Man

[AlexDTX]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

 

[razzelflabben]

Let me throw this at you and see how your feel about it. When I did a word study on the passage in question what I discovered is that Paul is instructing woman to NOT usurpe their new found authority over men. IOW"s don't take authority and power just because you now have power and authority you didn't have before but rather in submission wait for Me to open the door for you to minister as I have called you.

the same can be said for men....

 

[pilgrimage]

Maybe Paul didn't realize that women have the same needs.

 

[Hidden In Him]

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Greetings Alex.

I take the position that the teaching is not addressed to women in general but to wives, specifically because in agreeing to become a wife they would take on the role of reflecting the bride of Christ (i.e. the church), who is clearly subordinate to the Lord (Ephesians 5:23-24). The reason why this is not commonly understood is because most translations choose the word "woman" over "wife" in such passages, though the Greek could be translated either way.

A proper rendering of your passage, then, would be as follows:

"Let the wife learn in silence, with all subjection. But I suffer not a wife to teach nor usurp authority over [her] husband, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman (i.e. his wife) being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

You see how much better the translation of wife fits in with the context? He's talking about wives usurping authority (over husbands). He then talks about Adam and Eve (the first husband and wife) to reference how she decided to teach her husband and things didn't go so well. And then mentions childbearing. Unmarried women are nowhere encouraged in scripture to bear children, thus this entire passage is talking about married women, as are several other passages on this same theme.

 

[Halbhh]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

Paul often wrote various ways for people not to foment social revolution, but instead be humble good citizens that most non believers would like and respect, in order that the non believers be able to learn of Christ.

That's the goal -- do nothing that would cause unrest or block anyone from Christ, or trip the weak, even if you have to sacrifice.

Then in various epistles Paul often lays out specific sacrifices he wants the people in the churches to do.

The key, central, essential chapter to help us understand Paul on this is 1 Corinthians chapter 8, all 13 verses.

Digest this, and you'll get why Paul would write for slaves to be cheerful servants, but then later write to a slave owner of an escaped slave to sharply command him to consider his escaped slave a total equal to himself.

 

[Soyeong]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti_2:12)​

I have read many discussions on this topic and understood why such a statement should be made by Paul. I understand the argument that Paul makes but I did not understand why he made the argument.

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.​

The order of creation and the intention of God that a woman help a man I understand, but it still does not really say why it is wrong to have a woman have authority over man and to teach him. Verse 15, at first glance, seems to imply that a woman's eternal salvation is also at stake, but that does not agree with the Gospel. One commentator said it means that the woman would not die in child bearing, which has been an historically common occurrence. That seems more likely to me.

But I also remember other Old Testament statements that show men being ruled by women as a curse. In Isaiah 3:12 Yahweh through Isaiah laments the weakness of the men and the disgraceful condition they were in.

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. (Isa_3:12)​

The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwelling places; her bars are broken. (Jer_51:30)​

In today's American society women have been given the privilege of college education resulting now in many more women earning more money than their husbands, despite the “glass ceiling” that bars them from executive corporate positions. More and more women are in management positions over men today than ever before.

I grew up in California, and although I have now followed Christ for 33 years and lean more in a conservative direction, I still have liberal views. Consequently, I have felt that if a man can't do something and a woman can do it, more power to her. And in many ways I still hold that view. But understanding why the Bible discourages women having authority over men continued to be puzzling to me, until now.

Frankly, I don't think women understand men at all. It is also clear that most men do not understand women. I think this is why women are encouraged to teach other women instead.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

Women understand other women and men understand men. I don't believe most women understand the need men have for respect and appreciation for what they do. I think this is one significant element of so many divorces, including within Christian marriages. And I think it is a source of contention for men in the work place who have women as supervisors.

I know this is an old discussion, but I would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

I think a big key that we are missing is the context that Paul was writing to address. For example:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

During that time it was a standard practice for the women to be separated from the men in synagogues, so a woman who was trying to ask her husband a question would not have been standing next to him, but would have been across the room from him, so yelling a question to her husband would have been very disruptive. That could have been the same issue that Paul was dealing with in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 where a woman was disruptively teaching against what was being taught. So we should be careful not to take something Paul said to address a specifies situation as being a broad prohibition. We know from Romans 16:1-15 and other verses that some women held prominent roles as deacons, leaders, and coworkers in the Church. I do not believe that every instance of "salvation" refers to our eternal salvation, and 1 Timothy 2:15 is one such a case. In Isaiah 3:12 and Jeremiah 51:30, the emphasis is not so much on the women, but on what was being done where they were being misled or not acting as men should.

 

[mark kennedy]

The COGIC churches made this work somehow. Every COGIC church has a COGIC mother who is in charge of women's ministry, evangelism is their specialty. The Pastor doesn't tell them what to do really and they are always expected to respect the Pastor. These women during the Great Migration, as it is called, followed the exodus for blacks to the big cites and established churches all over the place. When people were going out in the streets to escape their small apartments and rooms these ladies would interact with them, pray for the sick and start little impromptu worship services in the streets. When they had enough people together as a body, they would send to Memphis for a Pastor and money to raise a church.

Submission is mutual, each part of the body of Christ has their own function. The function of the women in church is not to rule over it, preach or establish essential doctrine. They have a more personal role to play and a vitally important one at that.

 

[Joe Fizz]

Well your first passage is talking about that a woman is not to overtalk a man when he is teaching,also in a few other passages,a woman keeping "silence" is not referring to that a woman is not allowed to speak in church or otherwise,it is referring to that if she wishes to learn then she will listen intently to the man,also the word "suffer" in the first passage is referring to that if a man has something that he will teach then he shall teach it.
The passage doesn't mean a woman cannot teach it's talking about that if a man is teaching then a woman shall not try to overtake the man's class,she can teach her own class,many misinterpret such passages as plainly that a woman cannot speak in church nor teach,this is not true all in all such passages are referring to that the man shall first be considered when seeking wisdom in a church or household,if he has not an answer then the woman can teach in his stead,it's the same principle as man has with God,Man is to consider God's answer to a matter before himself,asking another man,or his wife,it's more of a way to be sure that the most accurate wisdom is taught when teaching,it's not as if to say that a woman cannot suggest an idea or handle matters that a man knows not how to handle,it's more of a concept that if a man "can" do something correctly then he should do it,if he cannot then he can seek his wife's aid,for example some men are not good at managing finances,the man can delegate responsibility to his wife but only if he cannot efficiently do so himself and is not to be interpreted that whatever a man says to do is to be done,that is another misconception man is to love his wife as himself so he can hardly do this if he gives ridiculous commands and will not hear his wife.

 

[AlexDTX]

Let me throw this at you and see how your feel about it. When I did a word study on the passage in question what I discovered is that Paul is instructing woman to NOT usurpe their new found authority over men. IOW"s don't take authority and power just because you now have power and authority you didn't have before but rather in submission wait for Me to open the door for you to minister as I have called you.

the same can be said for men....

Thank you. I would be interested in seeing your word study.

 

[AlexDTX]

Greetings Alex.

I take the position that the teaching is not addressed to women in general but to wives, specifically because in agreeing to become a wife they would take on the role of reflecting the bride of Christ (i.e. the church), who is clearly subordinate to the Lord (Ephesians 5:23-24). The reason why this is not commonly understood is because most translations choose the word "woman" over "wife" in such passages, though the Greek could be translated either way.

A proper rendering of your passage, then, would be as follows:

"Let the wife learn in silence, with all subjection. But I suffer not a wife to teach nor usurp authority over [her] husband, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman (i.e. his wife) being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

You see how much better the translation of wife fits in with the context? He's talking about wives usurping authority (over husbands). He then talks about Adam and Eve (the first husband and wife) to reference how she decided to teach her husband and things didn't go so well. And then mentions childbearing. Unmarried women are nowhere encouraged in scripture to bear children, thus this entire passage is talking about married women, as are several other passages on this same theme.

I agree with you. I think the context shows it is in reference to wives, at least in Paul's letter to Timothy.

But I don't believe now it is limited to marriage. Consider the Isaiah passage where God laments the men of Israel not being men and being oppressed by children and women. Also the insult God makes to Babylon saying the men will be like women. And as Paul Timothy, the woman was made for the man, not the man for the woman.

Because women have left off childbearing for careers, I think this is evidence of American society (I can not speak for other nations) furthering leaving the will of God. So many men in television comedies are portrayed as infantile buffoons who have wise women to lead them. It is an emasculating role change that is damaging society.

 

[AlexDTX]

Paul often wrote various ways for people not to foment social revolution, but instead be humble good citizens that most non believers would like and respect, in order that the non believers be able to learn of Christ.

That's the goal -- do nothing that would cause unrest or block anyone from Christ, or trip the weak, even if you have to sacrifice.

Then in various epistles Paul often lays out specific sacrifices he wants the people in the churches to do.

The key, central, essential chapter to help us understand Paul on this is 1 Corinthians chapter 8, all 13 verses.

Digest this, and you'll get why Paul would write for slaves to be cheerful servants, but then later write to a slave owner of an escaped slave to sharply command him to consider his escaped slave a total equal to himself.

I agree that the Gospel should be given every opportunity to be proclaimed. But if pagan men see Christian men emasculated, what incentive is there for them to come to Christ?

 

[razzelflabben]

Thank you. I would be interested in seeing your word study.

I'll see if I can find it, I have other things I need to do tonight, if I forget please remind me.

 

[AlexDTX]

Well your first passage is talking about that a woman is not to overtalk a man when he is teaching,also in a few other passages,a woman keeping "silence" is not referring to that a woman is not allowed to speak in church or otherwise,it is referring to that if she wishes to learn then she will listen intently to the man,also the word "suffer" in the first passage is referring to that if a man has something that he will teach then he shall teach it.
The passage doesn't mean a woman cannot teach it's talking about that if a man is teaching then a woman shall not try to overtake the man's class,she can teach her own class,many misinterpret such passages as plainly that a woman cannot speak in church nor teach,this is not true all in all such passages are referring to that the man shall first be considered when seeking wisdom in a church or household,if he has not an answer then the woman can teach in his stead,it's the same principle as man has with God,Man is to consider God's answer to a matter before himself,asking another man,or his wife,it's more of a way to be sure that the most accurate wisdom is taught when teaching,it's not as if to say that a woman cannot suggest an idea or handle matters that a man knows not how to handle,it's more of a concept that if a man "can" do something correctly then he should do it,if he cannot then he can seek his wife's aid,for example some men are not good at managing finances,the man can delegate responsibility to his wife but only if he cannot efficiently do so himself and is not to be interpreted that whatever a man says to do is to be done,that is another misconception man is to love his wife as himself so he can hardly do this if he gives ridiculous commands and will not hear his wife.

Personally I believe that organized religion that is based upon the synagogue system is un-biblical in the first place. I agree with Hidden in Him. I believe the gathering of saints in house churches is the context of the epistles. How many women do you know that are fearful of submitting to their husbands? I know many. Trust in male leadership is the goal of the new world order to destabilize societies. Male leadership is thousands of years old. It is not because men are stronger than woman and force them into submission, it is because this is the order planned by God, and God has sustained it for centuries.

 

[AlexDTX]

I think a big key that we are missing is the context that Paul was writing to address. For example:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

During that time it was a standard practice for the women to be separated from the men in synagogues, so a woman who was trying to ask her husband a question would not have been standing next to him, but would have been across the room from him, so yelling a question to her husband would have been very disruptive. That could have been the same issue that Paul was dealing with in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 where a woman was disruptively teaching against what was being taught. So we should be careful not to take something Paul said to address a specifies situation as being a broad prohibition. We know from Romans 16:1-15 and other verses that some women held prominent roles as deacons, leaders, and coworkers in the Church. I do not believe that every instance of "salvation" refers to our eternal salvation, and 1 Timothy 2:15 is one such a case. In Isaiah 3:12 and Jeremiah 51:30, the emphasis is not so much on the women, but on what was being done where they were being misled or not acting as men should.

See my answer to Joe Fizz in post 13.

 

[Halbhh]

I agree that the Gospel should be given every opportunity to be proclaimed. But if pagan men see Christian men emasculated, what incentive is there for them to come to Christ?

Either men or women who emasculate others are in the wrong, and best is to confess and repent of it.

Additionally, if men are in your church that have "weak conscience" as Paul wrote it, then everyone in your church should bend over backwards to help them, just as Paul instructed.

 

[AlexDTX]

The COGIC churches made this work somehow. Every COGIC church has a COGIC mother who is in charge of women's ministry, evangelism is their specialty. The Pastor doesn't tell them what to do really and they are always expected to respect the Pastor. These women during the Great Migration, as it is called, followed the exodus for blacks to the big cites and established churches all over the place. When people were going out in the streets to escape their small apartments and rooms these ladies would interact with them, pray for the sick and start little impromptu worship services in the streets. When they had enough people together as a body, they would send to Memphis for a Pastor and money to raise a church.

Submission is mutual, each part of the body of Christ has their own function. The function of the women in church is not to rule over it, preach or establish essential doctrine. They have a more personal role to play and a vitally important one at that.

Thank you for that information. I am actually more concerned with the influence of women managing men in the work place and its impact on both the church and society at large.

 

[AlexDTX]

I'll see if I can find it, I have other things I need to do tonight, if I forget please remind me.

No hurry, I am actually leaving for work myself. Thank you.

 

[AlexDTX]

Either men or women who emasculate others are in the wrong, and best is to confess and repent of it.

Agreed. Although emasculation is word that refers to men only, since the root in the word is masculine.

 

[Halbhh]

Agreed. Although emasculation is word that refers to men only, since the root in the word is masculine.

Right. Also, if there are men in your church whose faith would be harmed by women even just serving as ushers (or whatever), then Paul teaching is that they should not. It's that simple.

In our own church, I think we don't have any whose faith will be harmed by a woman speaking from the pulpit, as occasionally happens. It doesn't seem to reduce attendance or cause consternation. We are in line with Paul's teaching then, as you get from full reading (such as I pointed to above in my initial answer).

 

[mark kennedy]

Thank you for that information. I am actually more concerned with the influence of women managing men in the work place and its impact on both the church and society at large.

Women are about relationships, men more involved in practical solutions. Most men simply put people in categories and there are rules. Women see it more as in flux, they are not that good at static authoritarian relationships. I have long believed a woman in the pulpit was neglecting something she could do a lot more effectively.

Let tyrants fear; I have always so behaved myself that, under God, I have placed my chiefest strength and safeguard in the loyal hearts and good will of my subjects. (Elizabeth 1, before the defeat of the Spanish Armada)
​

She didn't speak like a king, but like a mother. Women can handle places of authority but I think they will be more into relationships then authority, with men it comes naturally.