The worst thing about Calvinism

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So to get around your dilemma, you redefine propitiation.

That's on you.

You redefine the words "whole world" as being in reference to believers when it is clear that it is not saying that. Propitiation does mean to satisfy or to appease (Which is used in relation to satisfying God's justice), but like I said, it is provisional. It is like a check. The debt is paid, but one has to apply salvation to their life. It is like Adam's sin. By one man sin entered the world. But that does not mean every one is going to remain sinning against God the rest of their life. They can change and walk uprightly and righteously by Jesus Christ. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.

Besides, God temporarlly offering payment for sin is not a new concept in the Bible. We see it in the Old Testament. Hebrews talks about how the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin. Yet, we learn from reading the Old Testament that the animal sacrifices did offer cleansing from sin and forgiveness. However, this was only temporary. They had to keep revisiting the same sins year after year with more animal sacrifices. Jesus's sacrifice takes away everyone's sin but they need to apply the blood to the doorposts of their heart and remain inside Christ.


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Not relevant. You can't have him talking about the readers up until verse 9, then make a universal statement in verse 9, and then go back to talking to the readers. That's grossly inconsistent.

No. You are ignoring the wicked in verses 3-7. They are the ANY and the ALL in verse 9.



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RisenInJesus

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I've consistently stated that world has multiple definitions depending upon the context. I've demonstrated why the context in 2:2 does not allow it to be every person for all time because God's wrath cannot remain on someone if it was satisfied by Christ's death. The grammar allows for my understanding. So you are being disingenuous to say that I've redefined the word.
Is it disingenuous to believe the Bible interprets itself, that scripture interprets scripture, and that the context reveals the meaning of the words used? Yes, you have stated that the word world has different definitions, which I agree with. Yet you apply an inappropriate definition which the grammar does not allow, nor does it fit the context or line up with the way the scriptures use the word in the same chapter, epistle, and elsewhere in the NT where the word is in reference to the atonement. This reveals to me that you are willing to throw all standard biblical interpretation rules aside for the sake of supporting your belief in limited atonement.

But the the Bible is very clear in 1 John 2:2 and elsewhere that Jesus paid for the sins of the world and tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9) even those who...trample the Son of God underfoot counting His blood as a common thing (Hebrews 10:29) and false prophets and teachers who deny the Lord who bought them (2 Peter 2:1).

The biblical view which is that Christ died for all ...meaning ALL, is true to the character of God's love and mercy as revealed in the scriptures, while His justice is upheld by the biblical reality that only those who believe in Jesus as their Savior and are in Christ escape God's wrath which is satisfied in Christ. Calvinist's distorted view of the atonement and the limitations it places upon it are a misrepresentation of the gospel message and the character of God's perfect love, mercy, and justice.
 
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RisenInJesus

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God chooses the save based on the counsel of His will. That He has not given any further info is not for me to complain about, or ponder over. He does what He pleases.
Yet, the scriptures give plenty of further information concerning who and why God saves throughout the OT and NT.
 
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RisenInJesus

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I would say that we are free agents. In other words, we can choose to do or not do. But what we cannot do is go against our nature.

So the unregenerate could chose to follow Christ, but why would he? Scripture states he wants nothing to do with Him. Those in the flesh cannot please God.
Yet, those in the flesh are called to repent, believe in Christ and be delivered from the flesh and sin.
 
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You redefine the words "whole world" as being in reference to believers when it is clear that it is not saying that.
Not once did I say that. The definition I gave is grammatically correct if you allow for hyperbole.
 
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Hammster

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You redefine the words "whole world" as being in reference to believers when it is clear that it is not saying that. Propitiation does mean to satisfy or to appease (Which is used in relation to satisfying God's justice), but like I said, it is provisional. It is like a check. The debt is paid, but one has to apply salvation to their life. It is like Adam's sin. By one man sin entered the world. But that does not mean every one is going to remain sinning against God the rest of their life. They can change and walk uprightly and righteously by Jesus Christ. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.

Besides, God temporarlly offering payment for sin is not a new concept in the Bible. We see it in the Old Testament. Hebrews talks about how the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin. Yet, we learn from reading the Old Testament that the animal sacrifices did offer cleansing from sin and forgiveness. However, this was only temporary. They had to keep revisiting the same sins year after year with more animal sacrifices. Jesus's sacrifice takes away everyone's sin but they need to apply the blood to the doorposts of their heart and remain inside Christ.


...
There's nothing provisional about the atonement except that it only provides for those it's intended. Making up definitions is a weak way to argue.
 
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Hammster

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No. You are ignoring the wicked in verses 3-7. They are the ANY and the ALL in verse 9.



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Well, except for the us part, you could have been correct.
 
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RisenInJesus

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Not once did I say that. The definition I gave is grammatically correct if you allow for hyperbole.
I am saying in the instance of 1 John 2:2 the context does not allow for a hyperbolic interpretation of the word world. If you think I am misunderstanding what you said, since you said "not once did I say that", would you again very simply explain what you believe the definition of world is?
 
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Is it disingenuous to believe the Bible interprets itself, that scripture interprets scripture, and that the context reveals the meaning of the words used? Yes, you have stated that the word world has different definitions, which I agree with. Yet you apply an inappropriate definition which the grammar does not allow, nor does it fit the context or line up with the way the scriptures use the word in the same chapter, epistle, and elsewhere in the NT where the word is in reference to the atonement. This reveals to me that you are willing to throw all standard biblical interpretation rules aside for the sake of supporting your belief in limited atonement.

But the the Bible is very clear in 1 John 2:2 and elsewhere that Jesus paid for the sins of the world and tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9) even those who...trample the Son of God underfoot counting His blood as a common thing (Hebrews 10:29) and false prophets and teachers who deny the Lord who bought them (2 Peter 2:1).

The biblical view which is that Christ died for all ...meaning ALL, is true to the character of God's love and mercy as revealed in the scriptures, while His justice is upheld by the biblical reality that only those who believe in Jesus as their Savior and are in Christ escape God's wrath which is satisfied in Christ. Calvinist's distorted view of the atonement and the limitations it places upon it are a misrepresentation of the gospel message and the character of God's perfect love, mercy, and justice.
It's amusing how you go on about context, but then quote verses (or parts of verses) out of context.

And Calvinists don't limit the atonement. Like in the OT, where the atonement was for those whom it was intended for, we believe the atonement is for God's people. What we don't have to do is to say that on one hand, God's wrath was satisfied, and on the other, it wasn't. That cheapens Christ's work on the cross.
 
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Yet, those in the flesh are called to repent, believe in Christ and be delivered from the flesh and sin.
No disagreement there. We all are in the flesh at some point.
 
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I am saying in the instance of 1 John 2:2 the context does not allow for a hyperbolic interpretation of the word world. If you think I am misunderstanding what you said, since you said "not once did I say that", would you again very simply explain what you believe the definition of world is?
The definition is people in the world. The usage is hyperbolic, as I've stated over and over and over again.
 
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ClementofA

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So you believe in Univeralism?
I agree that God's love does not expire for people. But there are different types or degrees of love that comes from God. God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Job says this about man's days.

"Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass." (Job 14:5).

Then, once a person dies, then comes the Judgment.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27).

So in regards to the love of God in regards to salvation: There is an expiration date. But like I said, God knows who are his. There are no "his" being destroyed because they were not given enough time.

I believe the Bible, correctly translated & interpreted, teaches eventual universalism as the final destiny of all human beings since Adam, after all have been delivered from "hell" & saved through Jesus Christ & Him crucified.

The reference to Hebrews 9:27 does not speak of "an expiration date" for salvation or God's love. After death comes judgement for all, sinners & saints. Judgement is a good thing:

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Greek word for "chastening" here can mean correction:

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

I think, in light of the Rapture theory, many Christians would disagree with the statement that 100% of mankind will die and face judgment. Not only that, but Hebrews 9:27 does not say men are "only" going to die once. Lazarus, for one, is a Biblical example of one who died twice & the book of Revelation speaks of the "second death"."

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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Not sure you understood what I said before. I believe God will annihiate the wicked in the Lake of Fire. They will cease to exist. Be like smoke. Be no more. They will be erased from all time. Before they are destroyed both body and soul, they only will be punished in proportion to the sins they committed here upon this Earth. Fair justice. For it is not unloving for people to be punished for evil that they have done. If God did not punish evil or sin, then God would not really care about any real right and wrong. God's good ways truly matter to Him. For children who are not disciplined turned out to be spoiled. A society who is not punished properly for committing certain sins will just continue to keep doing them. If God did not punish the wicked, then that would mean God does not care about fair justice.

If God is going to annihilate them, then punishing them before this endless annihilation occurs does them no good & only harm. Such a punishment is harmful & sadistic to those he is going to annihilate. Yet you accuse the Calvinist caricature of God as being unloving.
 
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ClementofA

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"Do you believe God has the power and authority to save every single person?"

Jason replied:

No, because God did not set up salvation that way. He would have to make us like animals who cannot make moral choices. But this is not possible because God wanted to make man in His own image.

Again, answer my question with a clear... "yes" or a "no."


....

All of these are possible simultaneously:

1) Man is made in God's image
2) Man makes moral choices
3) Man does not have libertarian free will
4) God wants to, can & will save all people who ever lived
 
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"Do you believe God has the power and authority to save every single person?"

Jason replied:



All of these are possible simultaneously:

1) Man is made in God's image
2) Man makes moral choices
3) Man does not have libertarian free will
4) God wants to, can & will save all people who ever lived

The topic is Calvinism and why it is wrong and the topic is not about Universal Salvationism.
But I can see why you sympathesize with Calvinism, because Universal Salvationism uses a similar concept or idea. Forced Salvationism. But such a belief leads a believer to be apathetic in their faith. Meaning, that what you do here really does not matter.

BTW ~ There is nothing immoral about punishing sin. Even in our own society, if crimes went unpunished, then there would be chaos and disorder in our land. The freedoms you enjoy would not exist. Nobody is going to call the cops.


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I've answered this question, but you refuse to.

Actually I did answer the question and it was a.... "no."
But you believe this is a..."yes."

...
 
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