The worst thing about Calvinism

[Hammster]

You did say something. You said 2 Peter 3 is not talking about salvation. I said the word "repentance" in 2 Peter 3:9 makes it clear that it is talking about salvation. I mentioned Genesis 6 just in the event you want to erroneously point out how God repents as being the same as our repentance.


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Okay.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Think about this. What single event brought God the most glory? The cross. Who ordained it to happen? God. Could we have the cross without sin? No.

So you are saying that God wanted men to sin so that He could send His Son to go to the cross?
So it is God's will that men sin?
That does not sound like a holy God who is loving and good.
1 John 1:5 says there is no darkness in God.
God cannot tempt any man to sin but he is drawn away by his own lusts and desires (James 1:13-14).
1 Thessalonians 4:3 (NLT) says God will is for you to be holy (KJV: "your sanctification").

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[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't say that.

So then why say the chapter is not dealing with salvation? Does that change 2 Peter 3:9 in some way in regards to repentance?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Scripture says God is angry at the wicked every day.
If God has the power to save them, then He does not have to be angry at them anymore.
If it was God's sovereign decree or will that the wicked stay unsaved or damned, then why is God angry? Is not that His will?



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[Hammster]

So you are saying that God wanted men to sin so that He could send His Son to go to the cross?
So it is God's will that men sin?
That does not sound like a holy God who is loving and good.
1 John 1:5 says there is no darkness in God.
God cannot tempt any man to sin but he is drawn away by his own lusts and desires (James 1:13-14).
1 Thessalonians 4:3 (NLT) says God will is for you to be holy (KJV: "your sanctification").

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There are at least two things God could have to to prevent the fall. One, not given laws. Two, not created Satan.

 

[Hammster]

So then why say the chapter is not dealing with salvation? Does that change 2 Peter 3:9 in some way in regards to repentance?


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The passage this snippet of a verse is pulled from is talking about God destroying the earth in judgement. People are mocking saying, where is the promise of His coming? But the present world is being reserved for judgment.

A lot of folks think that, for some reason, Peter just jumps to a universal soteriological statement. Just 'cause. However, that's not true.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:8, NASB)

In other words, don't worry about the mockers. God's timing is His timing. He's not slow about His promise to destroy, but is patient towards you, believers, and not wanting any of the elect to perish but come to repentance.

And then he continues on about Christ's coming.

Trying to make two verses soteriological in the middle of a passage about the end times makes no sense whatsoever.

That is, unless you are trying to make it say something to doesn't in order to bolster a position.

 

[Hammster]

Scripture says God is angry at the wicked every day.
If God has the power to save them, then He does not have to be angry at them anymore.
If it was God's sovereign decree or will that the wicked stay unsaved or damned, then why is God angry? Is not that His will?



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How could He possibly be angry when Christ was a propitiation for the whole world?

Your theology is grossly inconsistent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How could He possibly be angry when Christ was a propitiation for the whole world?

Your theology is grossly inconsistent.

The Bible says,

"God is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalms 7:11).

Seeing there is no contradiction in Scripture, we have to reconcile this truth in Psalms 7:11 with the truth of Jesus dying for man's sins so as to offer man the free gift (1 John 2:2, Ephesians 2:8-9).

The solution is obvious. While Jesus has paid the price for most all men's sins who have ever sinned, that does not mean God cannot get upset at the wicked in what they do in real time because they have not received His free love gift (of paying for those sins). So there is no contradiction but only in your own mind.

In Calvinism there is a contradiction with believing in Psalms 7:11 because God can simply save all people and not be angry anymore. But in Calvinism, God just chooses to be angry at some for no real good reason and He chooses to save some for no real good reason.


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[Hammster]

The Bible says,

"God is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalms 7:11).

Seeing there is no contradiction in Scripture, we have to reconcile this truth in Psalms 7:11 with the truth of Jesus dying for man's sins so as to offer man the free gift (1 John 2:2, Ephesians 2:8-9).

The solution is obvious. While Jesus has paid the price for most all men's sins who have ever sinned, that does not mean God cannot get upset at the wicked in what they do in real time because they have not received His free love gift (of paying for those sins). So there is no contradiction but only in your own mind.

In Calvinism there is a contradiction with believing in Psalms 7:11 because God can simply save all people and not be angry anymore. But in Calvinism, God just chooses to be angry at some for no real good reason and He chooses to save some for no real good reason.


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Is Christ the propitiation (satisfaction of God's wrath) for sins of every single person, or not?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The passage this snippet of a verse is pulled from is talking about God destroying the earth in judgement. People are mocking saying, where is the promise of His coming? But the present world is being reserved for judgment.

A lot of folks think that, for some reason, Peter just jumps to a universal soteriological statement. Just 'cause. However, that's not true.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:8, NASB)

In other words, don't worry about the mockers. God's timing is His timing. He's not slow about His promise to destroy, but is patient towards you, believers, and not wanting any of the elect to perish but come to repentance.

And then he continues on about Christ's coming.

Trying to make two verses soteriological in the middle of a passage about the end times makes no sense whatsoever.

That is, unless you are trying to make it say something to doesn't in order to bolster a position.

The wicked in verses 3-7 is what is in context or view of God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Yes, this is tied to those wicked people during the last days (Which can be today) but time does not change the truth. The ANY and ALL in 2 Peter 3:9 is the wicked group in verses 3-7. To deny this is to try and prove something else that is not in the text.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Is Christ the propitiation (satisfaction of God's wrath) for sins of every single person, or not?

Only on the basis if they repent and believe. If they do not repent and believe, then they are condemned. It is what John 3:16 says. The payment for sin is provisional like a down payment on a house. But the house is still not totally paid for. That is why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We are to continue to abide in Christ and His words after we receive His free gift of salvation of believing in His death and resurrection for initial or ultimate salvation. It is why we are told to overcome and be faithful until death.


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[Hammster]

The wicked in verses 3-7 is what is in context or view of God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Yes, this is tied to those wicked people during the last days (Which can be today) but time does not change the truth. The ANY and ALL in 2 Peter 3:9 is the wicked group in verses 3-7. To deny this is to try and prove something else that is not in the text.


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Sorry, but the "you" in verse 9 shows that he's not making this universal. So it could be stated that He doesn't want any of you to perish, but all of you to come to repentance. And the context is that this will happen before the end.

 

[Hammster]

Only on the basis if they repent and believe. If they do not repent and believe, then they are condemned. It is what John 3:16 says. The payment for sin is provisional like a down payment on a house. But the house is still not totally paid for. That is why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We are to continue to abide in Christ and His words after we receive His free gift of salvation of believing in His death and resurrection for initial or ultimate salvation. It is why we are told to overcome and be faithful until death.


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So He not the propitiation for the whole world.

Thanks for admitting that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry, but the "you" in verse 9 shows that he's not making this universal. So it could be stated that He doesn't want any of you to perish, but all of you to come to repentance. And the context is that this will happen before the end.

No. The "us" in 2 Peter 3:9 is in reference to all of humanity. For the words ANY and ALL mean ANY and ALL. These words are also in context to the wicked that were just mentioned in verses 3-7.
Paul says that we used to be wicked and sinners but we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3).


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[Hammster]

No. The "us" in 2 Peter 3:9 is in reference to all of humanity. For the words ANY and ALL mean ANY and ALL. These words are also in context to the wicked that were just mentioned in verses 3-7.
Paul says that we used to be wicked and sinners but we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3).


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Us can't be all of humanity. Peter didn't write it to all of humanity.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So He not the propitiation for the whole world.

Thanks for admitting that.

No, I believe Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE world. But this like a down payment that needs to be accepted by the person. For example: I can say that I canceled out of your debt and write you a check. But if you took that check and put yourself further in debt or if you decided to throw away the check, then you are not canceling out your debt personally for your life. Your debt is paid because I have money for you to pay it. But how you properly respond determines if you actually will apply being debt free or not.

Now, there is a select few in whom Jesus did not die for. Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 talks about those who worship the beast never had their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. So they are not included in the group called "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2. But 1 John 2:2 is talking about the whole world (or the majority of humanity) because it would be non-sensical to contrast believers with believers. Especially when the word "world" is not associated with believers.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Us can't be all of humanity. Peter didn't write it to all of humanity.

Did Peter write his works before he had a vision from God about the Gentiles?


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[Hammster]

No, I believe Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE world. But this like a down payment that needs to be accepted by the person. For example: I can say that I canceled out of your debt and write you a check. But if you took that check and put yourself further in debt or if you decided to throw away the check, then you are not canceling out your debt personally for your life. Your debt is paid because I have money for you to pay it. But how you prperly respond determines if you actually will apply being debt free or not.

Now, there is a select few in whom Jesus did not die for. Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 talks about those who worship the beast never had their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. So they are not included in the group called "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2.


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So to get around your dilemma, you redefine propitiation.

That's on you.

 

[Hammster]

Did Peter write his works before he had a vision from God about the Gentiles?


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Not relevant. You can't have him talking about the readers up until verse 9, then make a universal statement in verse 9, and then go back to talking to the readers. That's grossly inconsistent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, in regards to Peter preaching to the Gentiles:

1 Peter 1:1 says,
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,."

For example: Paul writes to Galatia. The Galatians were not exclusively Jewish people.

Also, Scripture says,

39 “We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
40 “God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42 “And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days. (Acts 10:39-48 NASB)

7 "After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” (Acts 15:7-11 NASB).


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