MORE RAPTURE QUESTIONS

[jerry kelso]

You haven't yet posted any scripture that says God will take the Church to heaven. So I don't need to.

Jesus said such an idea was impossible. Not just once but over 5 times. End of story.

The irrefutable evidence is that only after the GWT, will death be no more. Revelation 21:4, paralleled by 1 Corinthians 15:54b-55

Right; He won't protect those who stand helplessly, not knowing what to do, faint with terror as the celestial powers are shaken....Luke 21:25-26 wondering why God has forsaken them, as they remain stuck on earth..... We are told to call upon His Name and I have a list of 20+ verses saying that He will protect His own, not remove them.

Not the Jewish usurpers of the name; Israel, but the Israel of God, His faithful Christians, God's Overcomers, everyone who freely believe in Him now. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:26

I could post a dozen + prophesies saying that Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive, That remnant will join their Christian brethren. The have had their chance over the last 2000 years; no change in their rejection of Jesus, excepting for a few thousand Messianic Jews.
The promises to ancient Israel, now pertain to the Christian peoples. Ephesians 3:6

So do you think the Jews will reinstitute the sacrificial under Mosaic Law? Not likely!

Amos 9:9, Ezekiel 11:14-16, John 10:16 are a few that come to mind; there is plenty of other evidence, scriptural and secular.

Sadly, if they continue to reject the Son of God, they will die. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:4, Zephaniah 1:18, Luke 19:27

When did the Lord send fire?

But it is; proved by ...the rest of her offspring, those who keep the Commandments and witness to Jesus.
You need to get the rapture nonsense out of your head and see the truth of what God actually does plan for His people.

Keras,

1. It doesn't say that we are raptured up and put in the Holy City either.

 

[BABerean2]

Keras,

1. It doesn't say that we are raptured up and put in the Holy City either.

You simply put together the timing of the event found in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13 to see what some would rather ignore, because it destroys the pretrib doctrine.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 kill the pretrib doctrine, since it connects chapter 5 to the event at the end of chapter 4.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

You haven't yet posted any scripture that says God will take the Church to heaven. So I don't need to.

Jesus said such an idea was impossible. Not just once but over 5 times. End of story.

The irrefutable evidence is that only after the GWT, will death be no more. Revelation 21:4, paralleled by 1 Corinthians 15:54b-55

Right; He won't protect those who stand helplessly, not knowing what to do, faint with terror as the celestial powers are shaken....Luke 21:25-26 wondering why God has forsaken them, as they remain stuck on earth..... We are told to call upon His Name and I have a list of 20+ verses saying that He will protect His own, not remove them.

Not the Jewish usurpers of the name; Israel, but the Israel of God, His faithful Christians, God's Overcomers, everyone who freely believe in Him now. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:26

I could post a dozen + prophesies saying that Judah will be punished and only a remnant will survive, That remnant will join their Christian brethren. The have had their chance over the last 2000 years; no change in their rejection of Jesus, excepting for a few thousand Messianic Jews.
The promises to ancient Israel, now pertain to the Christian peoples. Ephesians 3:6

So do you think the Jews will reinstitute the sacrificial under Mosaic Law? Not likely!

Amos 9:9, Ezekiel 11:14-16, John 10:16 are a few that come to mind; there is plenty of other evidence, scriptural and secular.

Sadly, if they continue to reject the Son of God, they will die. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:4, Zephaniah 1:18, Luke 19:27

When did the Lord send fire?

But it is; proved by ...the rest of her offspring, those who keep the Commandments and witness to Jesus.
You need to get the rapture nonsense out of your head and see the truth of what God actually does plan for His people.

keras,

1. There is such a thing as a rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
The dead in Christ Christ brings with him and meets the living believers from the earth who are raptured to the clouds and they are ever with the Lord.
This is a fact.
It doesn't say they go back to Heaven or earth so where do they go?
They don't go back to earth because the Lord is never physically on earth during the tribulation.
Revelation 4:1 John was told to come up hither into Heaven and see the things thereafter which was the church age before that.
The 24 elders represent the saved of Old and New Testasaints in Heaven not on earth. This is a fact.
Revelation 11:18 the prophets and saints are receiving rewards in Heaven in the middle of the tribulation. This is a fact!
Revelation 19:7-10 shows the saints are at the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven. This is a fact!
Revelation 19:11-17 Saints come out of Heaven with Christ to come to earth at Armageddon which is the Supper of the Lamb. This is a fact!
The saints are pictured in Heaven and that is proof that we are in Heaven which is the same equivalent to a literal statement. So your hermeneutics is faulty.
So what is your answer to these facts? Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

You simply put together the timing of the event found in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2 with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13 to see what some would rather ignore, because it destroys the pretrib doctrine.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 kill the pretrib doctrine, since it connects chapter 5 to the event at the end of chapter 4.

.

baberean2,

1. Revelation 4:1 John is told to come up hither to Heaven to show him things after the church age.
Revelation 5:9-10 shows the saints which would be represented by the 24 elders and they shall reign on earth is future till the end of the tribulation. This is a fact?
Revelation 11:18; the prophets and saints are judged in the middle of the tribulation or no later towards the end of the tribulation.
Revelation 19:7-10 plainly shows that the saints are at the Marriage of the Lamb.
Verse 11 the saints are coming out of Heaven to go to the Great Supper of the Great God Revelation 19:1-17. This is a fact!
Jude 1:14-15, Enoch prophesied tens of thousands of the saints the Lord cometh with. Where they are coming from? Heaven Revelation 19:11-15 on the Day of the Lord. This is a fact!
This destroys your assessment of putting 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3 for the church is in Heaven the whole 7 years.
So what is your answer to all these scriptural facts of showing the saints in Heaven before the Day of the Lord? Jerry kelso

 

[Amazing Horse]

On another thread i asked if you can find in scripture that when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye that we go to heaven after meeting the Lord in the air. No such scripture was found. I would like to ask a few more questions


1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

So. What about it. Is the "last trumpet" really the last trumpet as the scriptures point out. How do the Rapturist get around these scriptures?

You miss trumpets of angels with trump of God which is only once in bible i believe , also there are trumpets in 1000 year kingdom so even 7th trumpet in tribulation is not last one .

 

[Amazing Horse]

10 year old but still stands strong .

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I don't need to; Jesus did in at least five scriptures. Also the prophets tell us what God actually does plan for His people.

Dream on! Nowhere does John 14:1-4 say the Church goes to live in those 'mansions' in heaven. Only when the New Jerusalem comes down to earth, is it inhabited. Revelation 21 & 22

Your tone is like that of most rapture believers; you all think you hold the high ground of scriptural truth and those who challenge you are some kind of lower life. But especially when asked [nicely!] to provide the scriptural proof of a rapture to heaven, then the personal denigration and nasty abuse kicks in.
You Jerry, are not so bad as the poster on another forum who wanted to tar and feather me! You just make assertions and definitive opinions about prophesies like 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, making them mean something they don't.
I understand your difficulty, when asked to show scriptural proof; there isn't any and Dr Walvoord, who wrote The Rapture Question, 1959, said: The Bible does not state it [a rapture] in so many words.

Already addressed. Going to heaven is not what those scriptures are about. That idea has to be taught into them, by teachers that the Lord will judge very severely. James 3:1

Not how I and millions of other Christians plainly read it. That verse has convinced several rapture believers of their error. You are obviously too deeply in deception to even read plain Words of Jesus.

There is a misunderstanding of John 14 and the term mansions that both sides of this debate can rejoice over. The term mansions is really literally the word dwelling. The new body is our new dwelling, we live in a corrupt body now.

2 cor 5 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

 

[Amazing Horse]

It might not say that we go into mansions in NT , but in OT it does . Isaiah 26:19-21

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

If this does not talk about rapture and judgement after then i don't know what it's talking about .

 

[keras]

1. There is such a thing as a rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
The dead in Christ Christ brings with him and meets the living believers from the earth who are raptured to the clouds and they are ever with the Lord.
This is a fact.

What I thought I made clear, is: there is no rapture to heaven of the Church anywhere to be found in the Bible. THATS a fact!
What happens in 1 Thess 4:17, is a transportation to where Jesus is. He has left heaven, verse 16 says so. We are ever with the Lord; on earth.

It doesn't say they go back to Heaven or earth so where do they go?

They go with Jesus to Jerusalem, as per Matthew 24:31, where He will reign for 1000 years.

The 24 elders represent the saved of Old and New Testasaints in Heaven not on earth. This is a fact.

Your opinion, unsupported by scripture.

Revelation 11:18 the prophets and saints are receiving rewards in Heaven in the middle of the tribulation. This is a fact!

We know who it is that is in heaven; they are the souls of the martyrs, as described in Revelation 6:9-11. They are given the opportunity to cry out at times and in revelation 19:2, they thank God for His vengeance for their blood. Rev 11:18 is about Judgement and the rewards to His servants are brought down from heaven at Jesus' Return. Matthew 16:27

Revelation 19:7-10 shows the saints are at the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven. This is a fact!

The true fact is: heaven is not mentioned in those verses.

Revelation 19:11-17 Saints come out of Heaven with Christ to come to earth at Armageddon which is the Supper of the Lamb. This is a fact!

Jesus Returns accompanied by His angelic army. Matthew 25:32

So what is your answer to these facts? Jerry kelso

So my answer is: Your 'facts' are lies.

 

[keras]

It might not say that we go into mansions in NT , but in OT it does . Isaiah 26:19-21

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

If this does not talk about rapture and judgement after then i don't know what it's talking about .

This prophecy tells us to get under shelter when the Lord sends His fiery wrath upon the world.
It is only with a preconceived idea of a rapture, that you think of going to heaven, but that interpretation again shows the sheer desperation of rapture believers to make scripture fit their belief.
When that terrible Day comes, and be sure it will, Ezekiel 33:33, you will wish you had taken heed of the warning and made some preparations for shelter.

 

[SeventyOne]

It might not say that we go into mansions in NT , but in OT it does . Isaiah 26:19-21

19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

If this does not talk about rapture and judgement after then i don't know what it's talking about .

It doesn't matter what they say, you are absolutely right. Jesus told us that the place He prepares for us is "in the Father's house" who dwells in Heaven.

 

[keras]

It doesn't matter what they say, you are absolutely right. Jesus told us that the place He prepares for us is "in the Father's house" who dwells in Heaven.

Why don't you read and believe what the Bible actually does say about the place God is preparing and which will come down to earth, along with God; who will then dwell with mankind on earth. Revelation 21:1-27
Happy are those who are worthy to wear clean, white robes, they are free to eat from the tree of Life and may enter the city by the gates. Revelation 22:14
Thinking you get there before that time, is a fable and a delusion.

 

[SeventyOne]

Why don't you read and believe what the Bible actually does say about the place God is preparing and which will come down to earth, along with God; who will then dwell with mankind on earth. Revelation 21:1-27
Happy are those who are worthy to wear clean, white robes, they are free to eat from the tree of Life and may enter the city by the gates. Revelation 22:14
Thinking you get there before that time, is a fable and a delusion.

I do read and believe it. The place prepared for us in Heaven, the New Jerusalem, comes down with the description from the angel as the 'Bride' and the 'wife of the Lamb'. This signifies that it is already inhabited by the Bride. It's just like if 'Bob' comes rolling up in his Buick and I were to say to someone else there watching, "Look, Bob is here", when they look and see the Buick, they know Bob is contained within it. So, if it's pre-populated, and coming down out of heaven, where should I assume that initial population had taken place? In heaven, of course.

So, yes, I do believe it. I'd have to add or take away from Rev 21 to make any other conclusion.

 

[jerry kelso]

What I thought I made clear, is: there is no rapture to heaven of the Church anywhere to be found in the Bible. THATS a fact!
What happens in 1 Thess 4:17, is a transportation to where Jesus is. He has left heaven, verse 16 says so. We are ever with the Lord; on earth.

They go with Jesus to Jerusalem, as per Matthew 24:31, where He will reign for 1000 years.

Your opinion, unsupported by scripture.

We know who it is that is in heaven; they are the souls of the martyrs, as described in Revelation 6:9-11. They are given the opportunity to cry out at times and in revelation 19:2, they thank God for His vengeance for their blood. Rev 11:18 is about Judgement and the rewards to His servants are brought down from heaven at Jesus' Return. Matthew 16:27

The true fact is: heaven is not mentioned in those verses.

Jesus Returns accompanied by His angelic army. Matthew 25:32

So my answer is: Your 'facts' are lies.

keras,
1. You made it clear what you said but you can't back it up by scripture.
John 14:2; In my Father's house are many mansions.
The Father dwells in Heaven and you know that is the truth.
So you are the one that is not being truthful.

2. Revelation 19:7-10; the lambs wife hath made herself ready and is dressed in fine linen which is the righteousness of saints v8. This scene is in Heaven.
Verse 11; And I saw heaven opened......verse 14; And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen white and clean.
So the armies of Heaven are saints in this passage. Now I have no doubt that there will be angels as well but not just angels.
Jude 1:14; Enoch prophesied that the Lord comes with tens of thousands of his saints to execute judgement on the ungodly.
Both Jude and Revelation shows saints not angels.
So you are wrong and need to admit it for the truth will set you free.
I don't say this mean spirited at all but because it is a plain truth fact.

3. So your theory about 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is wrong about going to earth.

4. Matthew 24:30; the tribes of the earth shall mourn Revelation 1:7 when God comes back in the clouds of heaven with power and glory. Daniel 7:13.
This is the Battle of Armageddon is when the saints come out of Heaven with Christ Revelation 19:11-15.
Verse 31; He shall send his angels with a great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together his elect (The Jewish Elect)
from the four winds from one end of Heaven to the other.
This is the gathering of the Jewish elect on the earth.
God is coming back to set up the kingdom reign, restore Israel to its eternal covenants, and take the kingdoms of the world over and the church will help rule and reign for 1000 years to rid this earth of sin and rebellion.

5. Revelation 6:9-11; souls under the altar are in Heaven.
The 144,000 Jews Revelation 7 are raptured to Heaven in Revelation 14:1 which is the Heavenly Mt. Sion before the throne of God. 14:1-5.
They were the firstfruits and redeemed from among men and from the earth.
The two witnesses are killed and resurrected after their ministry is complete in the tribulation Revelation 11:11-12.
They that sing the song of Moses and the lamb are in Heaven Revelation 15:1-2 before the wrath of God of the 7th vials Revelation 16:1-2.
Those martyred and raptured will be in time for the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven before they come out of Heaven with the rest of the saints in Revelation 19:7-10; 11-15.

6. Revelation 11:18 is rewards in Heaven 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
This is in the middle of the tribulation and God and Christ and the saints are still in Heaven.
Matthew 16:27; has nothing to with the believers works. This has to with those on the earth who are a part of the adulterous and sinful generation Mark 8:38.

7. So it turns out your position and context are neither right, correct, and are not facts, period. Jerry kelso

 

[keras]

I do read and believe it. The place prepared for us in Heaven, the New Jerusalem, comes down with the description from the angel as the 'Bride' and the 'wife of the Lamb'. This signifies that it is already inhabited by the Bride. It's just like if 'Bob' comes rolling up in his Buick and I were to say to someone else there watching, "Look, Bob is here", when they look and see the Buick, they know Bob is contained within it. So, if it's pre-populated, and coming down out of heaven, where should I assume that initial population had taken place? In heaven, of course.

So, yes, I do believe it. I'd have to add or take away from Rev 21 to make any other conclusion.

So; provide the scripture that says Bob got into the Buick.
If you can't show a verse a verse saying God will take His people to heaven, or very similar, then you believe a fable.

 

[SeventyOne]

So; provide the scripture that says Bob got into the Buick.
If you can't show a verse a verse saying God will take His people to heaven, or very similar, then you believe a fable.

You've been provided several. I don't believe I could present anything to convince you since you are actively trying to remain unconvinced. This rejection on your part does not imply a fable on my part.

 

[keras]

You've been provided several. I don't believe I could present anything to convince you since you are actively trying to remain unconvinced. This rejection on your part does not imply a fable on my part

I reject the idea of a rapture to heaven because such an thing is never stated in the Bible.
That is, of course, why you avoid providing any proof.

What I try to do is show what God actually does plan for our future. He will have a people, all faithful Christians in the holy Land, being what He always desired; His witnesses and the Light to the nations. The prophets all write toward this outcome.

 

[Amazing Horse]

Why not Both .

 

[keras]

Why not Both

Good luck with telling God what He should do!

 

[jerry kelso]

keras,
1. You made it clear what you said but you can't back it up by scripture.
John 14:2; In my Father's house are many mansions.
The Father dwells in Heaven and you know that is the truth.
So you are the one that is not being truthful.

2. Revelation 19:7-10; the lambs wife hath made herself ready and is dressed in fine linen which is the righteousness of saints v8. This scene is in Heaven.
Verse 11; And I saw heaven opened......verse 14; And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen white and clean.
So the armies of Heaven are saints in this passage. Now I have no doubt that there will be angels as well but not just angels.
Jude 1:14; Enoch prophesied that the Lord comes with tens of thousands of his saints to execute judgement on the ungodly.
Both Jude and Revelation shows saints not angels.
So you are wrong and need to admit it for the truth will set you free.
I don't say this mean spirited at all but because it is a plain truth fact.

3. So your theory about 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is wrong about going to earth.

4. Matthew 24:30; the tribes of the earth shall mourn Revelation 1:7 when God comes back in the clouds of heaven with power and glory. Daniel 7:13.
This is the Battle of Armageddon is when the saints come out of Heaven with Christ Revelation 19:11-15.
Verse 31; He shall send his angels with a great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together his elect (The Jewish Elect)
from the four winds from one end of Heaven to the other.
This is the gathering of the Jewish elect on the earth.
God is coming back to set up the kingdom reign, restore Israel to its eternal covenants, and take the kingdoms of the world over and the church will help rule and reign for 1000 years to rid this earth of sin and rebellion.

5. Revelation 6:9-11; souls under the altar are in Heaven.
The 144,000 Jews Revelation 7 are raptured to Heaven in Revelation 14:1 which is the Heavenly Mt. Sion before the throne of God. 14:1-5.
They were the firstfruits and redeemed from among men and from the earth.
The two witnesses are killed and resurrected after their ministry is complete in the tribulation Revelation 11:11-12.
They that sing the song of Moses and the lamb are in Heaven Revelation 15:1-2 before the wrath of God of the 7th vials Revelation 16:1-2.
Those martyred and raptured will be in time for the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven before they come out of Heaven with the rest of the saints in Revelation 19:7-10; 11-15.

6. Revelation 11:18 is rewards in Heaven 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
This is in the middle of the tribulation and God and Christ and the saints are still in Heaven.
Matthew 16:27; has nothing to with the believers works. This has to with those on the earth who are a part of the adulterous and sinful generation Mark 8:38.

7. So it turns out your position and context are neither right, correct, and are not facts, period. Jerry kelso