I find that people who point to commentary rather than scripture, usually believe the opposite of what the Bible teaches.
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
- These shall be punished with everlasting destruction
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12
- the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,
This repetitious copy/paste from tents-я-us is really not relevant because several verses in the NT show conclusively that aionios means eternal.Compare Rev.20:10...
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)
And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)
...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":
And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)
But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:
24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)
So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).
Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".
When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).
Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”
2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.
Chapter Five
Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."
Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three
Berean Literal Bible
And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.
Weymouth New Testament
and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.
Revelation 20:10 Interlinear: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age or ages, as per the versions above, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever.
If torment is "into" (EIS) these future ages, as the word EIS is often translated as "into", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of those ages, even if those ages are endless.
If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time.
Revelation 20:10 Interlinear: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)...Definition: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among."
Strong's Greek: 1519. εἰς (eis) -- to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)
From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.
9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)
9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)
Regarding the mistranslation "eternal": "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
Destruction can be a good thing:
... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
Destruction can be reversed:
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)
Destruction can be corrective:
Mt.25:46, punishment, kolasis, "2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."
"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology
"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:
Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)
II Thessalonians 1:8-9
Compare Rev.20:10...
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)
And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)
...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":
And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)
But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:
24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)
So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).
Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".
When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).
Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”
2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.
Chapter Five
Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?
"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."
Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three
Berean Literal Bible
And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.
Weymouth New Testament
and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.
Revelation 20:10 Interlinear: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age or ages, as per the versions above, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever.
If torment is "into" (EIS) these future ages, as the word EIS is often translated as "into", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of those ages, even if those ages are endless.
If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time.
Revelation 20:10 Interlinear: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)...Definition: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among."
Strong's Greek: 1519. εἰς (eis) -- to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)
From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Still haven't seen any scripture that says the torment or punishment ends.
Verse 3 speaks of those bringing "many" to righteousness. The "many" of verse 2, i.e. universal salvation.
Not necessarily true. For example Jesus used the word death in two different ways in one verse. Can dead bodies bury other dead bodies?...The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.
The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Daniel 12:3:
That the translators of the LXX used the Greek word "eti" is not compelling since the Hebrew scholars who translated the 1917 JPS, translated "ad" as "ever." This is known as cherry picking, find something, somewhere which seems to support one's argument then ignore all other evidence.
- the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,
Sorry, but there is nothing temporary about the torment forever and ever.
I already addressed this in post #64 above.
------------------
10 I see the experience that God gives To the sons of humanity to humble them by it. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, God, does from the beginning to the end.
If God doesn't save all, is it because He is lacking in power, love or wisdom?
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Do you see the phrase forever and ever having no rest day or night as temporary.
The way to address this question is with a yes or a no.