Why I believe Hell is not eternal punishment, but rather total annihilation

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread was moved from General Theology to Controversial Christian Theology.

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Non-Nicene unorthodox Christian topics may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Christianity & World Religion forum and the Debate Non-Christian Religions forum. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). These unorthodox topics include (but are not limited to):

• Universalism
• Open Theism
• Full Preterism
• Annihilationism
• Gnosticism

 

[Dirk1540]

Ok thanks FreeinChrist

 

[Der Alte]

#1 i do not choose to believe in annihilation because i WANT it to be true. If that were the case I would choose universal salvation. Also if that were the case I would not have gone many years believing in eternal punishment as being true.
#2 how sweet it is to be able to simply point to a lecture that can describe why I believe it much better than I'd be able to articulate it!! Not to mention that substituting an hour long lecture with writing would be one incredibly LONG post...
I like what he says in the beginning, he tells the audience please don't even make a decision tonight, just chew on the alternative viewpoint that you've probably never heard before.
EDIT...let me add something that will make it more intriguing to wanna watch, I'll list the people that he mentions as ALSO believing in total annihilation, it's probably not too enticing for you guys to read that 'Dirk1540' believes this lol...some of the more accomplished scholars who believe this view...
FF Bruce
John Stott
Michael Green
E. Earle Ellis
Philip E. Hughes
Thomas Olbricht
John McRay
John Stackhouse
Dale Moody
John Franke
Homer Hailey
Thomas L. Robinson
Clark Pinnock
John Wenham
Richard Bauckham
NT Wright

Listing names of people who supposedly hold a certain theological view are really not helpful unless we are told where and in what context they may have expressed that view. One of those on this list was one of my professors in the early 80s and he believed

"destruction and the second death confront us under the symbol of the 'lake of fire' where all the notoriously wicked 'will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Rev . 20:10) Gehenna was 'prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41) but men may end there by spurning the love of God (Rev. 20:14) The scriptures are not clear on whether eternal punishment and second death are identical or degrees of eternal punishment." ​

Here are my views on hell.
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposedly "biased" Christian writers.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

 

[Dirk1540]

Der Alter, I completely agree with your opening statement, i am not a fan at all at quoting scholars. The only reason I did it was because unfortunately tons of people DO lean too hard on who said something instead of their argument for why they said something. So all I was trying to do was make it more enticing for some people to watch the video.

I'm actually on the run right now I'll read your full post later.

 

[Blade]

Well..thank you. But.. people can debate this as long as you want and still not one will have the truth. How can people talk about something we have no say in. We can't see the heart and then so many of US take how we feel see and know and them apply all that to a GOD. Then how wrong it is.. or how fair or what ever. Still.. Not once will He is He going to ask anyone about this. Its was done before Christ came. Was never for man. What man thinks is lets say "fair" or 'just".. we have again no say. We were born in to sin. And our righteousness.. ANYTHING GOOD is ALL from HIM alone.

After this life.. you and I will not be talking about this. This is something only a GOD can hold handle. And.. everyone that is lost.. HE MADE! If we are made in HIS image.. and He feels crys.. thats HIS creation that will be away from HIM forever. All I do know is.. no one is lost by accident. They fully made the choice. I know many are blind.. and Jesus said..if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains.

People look to man for answers.... at times this is wise..but.. you have Jesus IN YOU. IN YOU... He is ALWAYS with you..He has NEVER LEFT. And.. WHY can you not just ask HIM? Have I? About this? Just once.. I was about 15.. I said.. how can you send all these people to hell. He came right back with "for God so loved the world...ever one gets a choice". For me.. this is written in the bible.. so.. I have and leave it to HIM.. for HE IS faithful. Be one thing to debate with say a Muslim.. but.. Christian vs Christan? No

 

[SBC]

#1 i do not choose to believe in annihilation because i WANT it to be true. If that were the case I would choose universal salvation. Also if that were the case I would not have gone many years believing in eternal punishment as being true.

#2 how sweet it is to be able to simply point to a lecture that can describe why I believe it much better than I'd be able to articulate it!! Not to mention that substituting an hour long lecture with writing would be one incredibly LONG post...


EDIT...let me add something that will make it more intriguing to wanna watch, I'll list the people that he mentions as ALSO believing in total annihilation,

Total annihilation - without being on the same page of understanding IMPOV, is the crux of misunderstanding and contention. The term is broad and vague.

For the purpose of IMPOV I will point out the step by step, regarding mankind, (not particularly including angels)

The Who, What, When, Why, Where.

What - Hell.
...A place for those things that are no longer present in their "first estate"
...A "first estate", is the Place created for particular things.

Man - a kind of formed thing, from the earth, to return to the earth.
Soul - a kind of thing, made by God, imparted Life from God, imparted into man,
.........for the purpose of quickening (bringing into living) the form, ie man.
Man - now brought to living, continues living, by its Blood, which is the forms Life.
Spirit of man - mans natural truth.
Heart of man - mans natural truth thoughts.
Mind of man - mans natural ability to have and process thoughts, true or deceptive.
Soul of man - belongs to God, a recording of sorts, of all thoughts & deeds of man.
Organs, bones, systems of man - natural parts of man for functioning purposes.

All natural born alive men - are separated from God, via being born via a corrupt seed.
Thus - All natural born alive men - inside and outside are corrupt.
......Their form/body, their soul, their heart, their truth, their mindful thoughts, etc.
Thus - All natural born alive men - have an unknown amount of time to choose to reconcile unto God, or not.
Thus - A choice to reconcile unto God - requires a total restoration, renewing, changing
.....of the WHOLE of the man, inside and outside. (Spiritually accomplished, by a Spiritual God)

Earth is First Estate of the WHOLE of man. Not Heaven and Not Hell.
Hell - is an estate created FOR;
.....Living Souls, second estate, for Wholly Faithful men, whose body perished and
.....returned to the earth ** this has been fulfilled and no longer applies ***
.....because of Jesus' soul fulfillment to first leave Hell.
.....THUS TO NOTE - From since Jesus' fulfillment - Living souls departed from their
.....dead body's go directly to God in Heaven, who continue to be sustained in Life
.....from God, via the Tree of Life (which is always in the midst of faithful living souls).

Hell - is an estate created FOR;
.....Living Souls, second estate, for ALSO the UNFAITHFUL, whose body perished and
......returned to the earth ** this was individually accomplished from the beginning of ......mankind and continues to this day.

Hell - also has application specific to angels, but this is about mankind.

Hell - is a Place (since Jesus' fulfillment) for living souls to be Totally Separated from
........God, and pleasant things God created "upon" the earth. (UNTIL a specific Day)

Hell - is a Place that (on a specific Day) Judgement and Sentencing shall commence.

The Judging is performed By the FAITHFUL to God; Christ Jesus and His saints.
The Basis of Judgement is according to Gods books and records, per the TRUE FACTS
.....as "recorded" in the living soul, that belongs to God, but that which was IN the
.....man, that also were testified of IN Heaven, and recorded in Gods Books.
The Sentencing is according to that which the Word of God declared and revealed for
.....all to have such knowledge; as required to be told, repeated, written, announced,
.....for mankind to be informed.

The Judging and Sentencing requires the Judged and Sentenced to be present.

Thus that which is Judged and Sentenced - requires their dead body (unchanged) to be raised from it's earthly grave and sent to hell, where its living soul is imparted, that both the body and soul can stand in its own judgement, before the judges.

Judgement -
as already revealed is TOTAL SEPARATION FROM GOD FOR EVER, with NO HOPE OF RECONCILIATION EVER, which is what becomes realized as their eternal torment.

This being their CHOSEN separation from God during their life span ON EARTH; Thus God WHO IS JUST; has promised every man the freewill to choose, and shall Keep His Word and give to every man what He chose.

Eternal Torment -
is not an Eternal "feeling of Pain", as some ascribe as a torturous feeling of endless pain.
Eternal Torment - is their own finality of coming to the understanding - of basically they blew it - they shall never experience or participate in the splendor of eternity with their creator. Peace and Joy (something most living humans on this earth, crave for their whole lives, even the unfaithful); shall Never be afforded for the UNFAITHFUL to behold and experience.

Understanding -
God IS LIFE. Nothing whatsoever has LIFE in it, Less it is Life given it BY God. Spirit LIFE, belongs to God and REMAINS in the (thing/vessels) which God imparted Spirit LIFE into it - or Spirit LIFE, departs the (thing/vessels) and returns to God.

Blood is LIFE of a form/body. And because mankind FORM/Body is separated from God, God shall require IT'S BLOOD.

Lev 17

1. [11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
   
2. [14] For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof:

Gen 9
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require;

The Over view -
What Belongs to God? body's He created. The earth He created body's from. souls He has made. Life that is He.

What is Acceptable to God?
That what belongs to God which is Wholly Holy.

What is Acceptable to be restored, quickened, changed, renewed, sanctified, justified?
That which chose to be Faithful.

When is the choice to stand FOR or AGAINST God an election of man?
When a living man is occupying his first estate (upon the earth).

The Sentencing -
Total forever Separation from God -
The living soul departed from the body,
The life from the soul departed and returns to God.
The lifeless body and lifeless soul destroyed.

Matt.10

1. [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Summary -
God IS JUST - every man has the authority to choose to stand with God or stand again Him.
God IS JUST - all knowledge is reveal that is the consequence for standing with God or standing against God.
God IS MERCIFUL - No man in standing against God receives an ETERNALLY LIVING born again spirit, which is that which CAN NOT DIE.
God IS MERCIFUL - No man in standing against God remains with Life, or Feelings to forever be physically tormented eternally.

Conclusion -
Total annihilation? Yes, specific to unforgiven unfaithful mankind's body and soul totally void of Life.

Additional reasoning -
Nothing whatsoever teaches Hell is Place designed to Receive forgiveness, sanctification, become made whole or holy, restoration, renewing, quickening with forever life, or an eternal abode (estate) for the faithful.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[he-man]

Listing names of people who supposedly hold a certain theological view are really not helpful unless we are told where and in what context they may have expressed that view. One of those on this list was one of my professors in the early 80s and he believed

"destruction and the second death confront us under the symbol of the 'lake of fire' where all the notoriously wicked 'will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Rev . 20:10) Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom ​

You only have to read 2 Thess 1:9 [DARBY] Who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His Might. And from [YLT] who shall suffer justice- destruction age-during- from the face of the Lord and from the glory of His strength. απολλυμι eternal destruction; of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4,7) απολεσθαι εισ τδν αιονα perish forever 10:28; Apolluwv Appolyon= Destroyer. From Arndt and Gingrich; A Greek English Lexicon; Esp. of eternal destruction as punishment for the wicked Mt 7:13; 1TIM 6:9 utter destruction

 

[Mark Corbett]

For anyone who is interested I just started another thread related to this topic. Why start a new thread? Well, for one thing I wanted to start by carefully laying out the case for Conditional Immortality, and that required a longer post than is normally found in comments, but works well as an OP. Please continue your discussion here, and also, if you're interested, check out the new thread here: Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationism, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

 

[paul1149]

Augustine was SO influencial that when he supported the inherent (not gift from God) immortal soul he really locked it in as orthodoxy, I guess it was more split before Augustine.

There's the distinct possibility that inherent vs. gifted is a false dichotomy. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Consider, God had every right to take all satan's authority away immediately upon his rebellion. Instead, God worked though history, until at the fulness of time He sent His Son. He also could have nuked Adam and Eve immediately, but instead allowed them to live and procreate. And even after Jesus' resurrection He works through the Church to destroy the devil's illicit kingdom, rather than just snapping His fingers. At some point, though, He will pull the plug.

The sense I have is that God says, "what I have given, I have given. What you do with it, you will have the consequences thereof". That is to say, eternal life is gifted, but once gifted also inherent.

 

[Mark Corbett]

That is to say, eternal life is gifted, but once gifted also inherent.

Paul, of course eternal life is a gift (Romans 6:23). The question is who has it been gifted to? Where in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, does it say that anyone other than those having faith in God were ever given the gift of eternal life?

 

[Dirk1540]

For anyone who is interested I just started another thread related to this topic. Why start a new thread? Well, for one thing I wanted to start by carefully laying out the case for Conditional Immortality, and that required a longer post than is normally found in comments, but works well as an OP. Please continue your discussion here, and also, if you're interested, check out the new thread here: Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationism, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Ok thank you I'll probably shift over to that one if it lays out a more thorough starting point IN WRITING, I know people have busy lives sometimes it's tough for them to fit in an hour long video.

 

[SkyWriting]

#1 i do not choose to believe in annihilation because i WANT it to be true. If that were the case I would choose universal salvation. Also if that were the case I would not have gone many years believing in eternal punishment as being true.

#2 how sweet it is to be able to simply point to a lecture that can describe why I believe it much better than I'd be able to articulate it!! Not to mention that substituting an hour long lecture with writing would be one incredibly LONG post.

"Eternal" is simply the best term for existence without time.
People often mistakenly think "Eternity" is a lot of time.
Eternity is no time at all.

Long lectures do not denote Truth.
Printed lectures are much easier to analyze without emotion.
Music is used to set your emotions first.

 

[Dirk1540]

"Eternal" is simply the best term for existence without time.
People often mistakenly think "Eternity" is a lot of time.
Eternity is no time at all.

My head wants to explode when I try to understand relativity, like how time differs in different locations of the universe. The concept of no time at all, I'll never wrap my head around that. What I do know is that it has been proven. Even on Earth they have confirmed that a clock up on a high mountain top differs from a 2nd clock deep in a valley by a few microseconds (after however long), and that's just on Earth let along 2 different locations in the universe.

This is part of the reason that I believe that God can have 'A Moment' with people at the time of their death. If one second can seem like 1 week somewhere else, which relativity proves to be possible, can it be possible for God to have an extended 'Moment' with people who would have believed had they not been surrounded by lies? People who never heard, people who lived their whole lives in another religion, etc? Yes, when you DIE it says that your opportunity has passed...but those final seconds, can they not contain a very long intercession with God...before they die? I'm not claiming that there's scripture to back this, other then passages about the holy spirit showing you truth that is spiritually discerned, well, how about a very active holy spirit at the final moment of your death??

 

[SkyWriting]

My head wants to explode when I try to understand relativity, like how time differs in different locations of the universe. The concept of no time at all, I'll never wrap my head around that. What I do know is that it has been proven. Even on Earth they have confirmed that a clock up on a high mountain top differs from a 2nd clock deep in a valley by a few microseconds (after however long), and that's just on Earth let along 2 different locations in the universe.

This is part of the reason that I believe that God can have 'A Moment' with people at the time of their death. If one second can seem like 1 week somewhere else, which relativity proves to be possible, can it be possible for God to have an extended 'Moment' with people who would have believed had they not been surrounded by lies? People who never heard, people who lived their whole lives in another religion, etc? Yes, when you DIE it says that your opportunity has passed...but those final seconds, can they not contain a very long intercession with God...before they die? I'm not claiming that there's scripture to back this, other then passages about the holy spirit showing you truth that is spiritually discerned, well, how about a very active holy spirit at the final moment of your death??

I don't deny that we have "Sequential experiences" when we are Spirits.
But "time" is defined by the decay of matter.
When we are Spirit, our current understanding of time ends.
"Eternity" is our closest word.

Time is also used to define energy and matter.
Being no matter, then, no time.

 

[JLB777]

#1 i do not choose to believe in annihilation because i WANT it to be true. If that were the case I would choose universal salvation. Also if that were the case I would not have gone many years believing in eternal punishment as being true.

#2 how sweet it is to be able to simply point to a lecture that can describe why I believe it much better than I'd be able to articulate it!! Not to mention that substituting an hour long lecture with writing would be one incredibly LONG post...

I like what he says in the beginning, he tells the audience please don't even make a decision tonight, just chew on the alternative viewpoint that you've probably never heard before.

EDIT...let me add something that will make it more intriguing to wanna watch, I'll list the people that he mentions as ALSO believing in total annihilation, it's probably not too enticing for you guys to read that 'Dirk1540' believes this lol...some of the more accomplished scholars who believe this view...

FF Bruce
John Stott
Michael Green
E. Earle Ellis
Philip E. Hughes
Thomas Olbricht
John McRay
John Stackhouse
Dale Moody
John Franke
Homer Hailey
Thomas L. Robinson
Clark Pinnock
John Wenham
Richard Bauckham
NT Wright

I find that people who point to commentary rather than scripture, usually believe the opposite of what the Bible teaches.


since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

• These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

• the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,

Case Closed.




JLB

 

[Dirk1540]

I find that people who point to commentary rather than scripture, usually believe the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

You're right in certain situations, like the person who finds a commentary, or a person that they like and that's it, they don't wanna be bothered with opposing views. But commentaries can help people with exegesis, an untrained eye that just picks up a Bible, reads it, and imposes their own meanings to everything runs a bigger risk of believing the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

The best is the person who owns 10 commentaries that give the best of all viewpoints. But sometimes you can get good variation without many commentaries, I like commentaries that present multiple viewpoints when they can, ones like BECNT that even give fair representation to the views they do not agree with (instead of straw man versions of the opposing views).

But I'm not even sure why you even bring up commentaries? I just posted a video where Dr Fudge argues his case. He's arguing WHY he believes what he believes, he's not just telling us that it's so because he said so. Also, if I wanted to just be a Dr Fudge disciple and close my eyes to everything else the last thing I would do is post it on this website to be opened up for scrutiny.

 

[JLB777]

You're right in certain situations, like the person who finds a commentary, or a person that they like and that's it, they don't wanna be bothered with opposing views. But commentaries can help people with exegesis, an untrained eye that just picks up a Bible, reads it, and imposes their own meanings to everything runs a bigger risk of believing the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

The best is the person who owns 10 commentaries that give the best of all viewpoints. But sometimes you can get good variation without many commentaries, I like commentaries that present multiple viewpoints when they can, ones like BECNT that even give fair representation to the views they do not agree with (instead of straw man versions of the opposing views).

But I'm not even sure why you even bring up commentaries? I just posted a video where Dr Fudge argues his case. He's arguing WHY he believes what he believes, he's not just telling us that it's so because he said so. Also, if I wanted to just be a Dr Fudge disciple and close my eyes to everything else the last thing I would do is post it on this website to be opened up for scrutiny.

Dr Fudge and his opinion, is commentary.

All you have chosen to comment on is commentary, and why you like to use commentary, while ignoring what the apostles John and Paul taught us, from the Holy Spirit inspired scriptures.


Here it is again -

since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

• These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

• the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,

Be enlightened with truth, brother.


If the light in you is darkness, then how great is the darkness?




JLB

 

[ClementofA]

Paul, of course eternal life is a gift (Romans 6:23). The question is who has it been gifted to? Where in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, does it say that anyone other than those having faith in God were ever given the gift of eternal life?

Jesus Himself spoke of aionios life in the aion to come (Lk.18:30; Mk.10:30), thus limiting it, whereas Scripture speaks of multiple aions/eons/ages to come (Eph.2:7, Rev.11:15, etc). In Ephesians 1 & 2 Paul the former Pharisee spoke of both the coming age (Eph.1:21) and multiple future ages (2:7).

It is immortality that gives believers endless life, not obtaining life aionion in a future aion/age, e.g. the millennial age kingdom of Christ that last 1000 years.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.”
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/viewFile/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

Similarly, in support of the above, Daniel 12:2-3:

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Daniel 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Daniel 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; 3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Daniel 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Daniel 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning in John 3:16 & elsewhere.

Verse 3 speaks of those bringing "many" to righteousness. The "many" of verse 2, i.e. universal salvation.

One of the strongest passages against UR, is actually one of the strongest in favor of it.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[SBC]

I find that people who point to commentary rather than scripture, usually believe the opposite of what the Bible teaches.
JLB

usually believe the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.

However, I do agree with your implication about "commentaries", often being an absolute in the mind of the reader.

Scripture is clear;
Scripture is the means for us to gain knowledge of the Truth.
Scripture is something every individual can choose to believe/trust or not.
Scripture is clear;
Only God "personally" gives us the correct understanding, according to He Himself.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm