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Featured Why I believe Hell is not eternal punishment, but rather total annihilation

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Dirk1540, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  2. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

    9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

    who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

    Regarding the mistranslation "eternal": "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

    Destruction can be a good thing:

    ... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)

    Destruction can be reversed:

    Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

    Destruction can be corrective:

    Mt.25:46, punishment, kolasis, "2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
    Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology


    "Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

    Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)

    II Thessalonians 1:8-9
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Compare Rev.20:10...

    and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

    And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

    ...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

    American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
    Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

    Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

    Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

    And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

    But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

    24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

    So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

    Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

    When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

    Chapter Five

    Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

    Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three


    Berean Literal Bible
    And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

    Weymouth New Testament
    and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.

    Revelation 20:10 Interlinear: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

    If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age or ages, as per the versions above, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever.

    If torment is "into" (EIS) these future ages, as the word EIS is often translated as "into", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of those ages, even if those ages are endless.

    If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time.
    Revelation 20:10 Interlinear: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

    eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)...Definition: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among."
    Strong's Greek: 1519. εἰς (eis) -- to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)

    From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This repetitious copy/paste from tents-я-us is really not relevant because several verses in the NT show conclusively that aionios means eternal.
    1 Timothy 1:17
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, (1) immortal,(2) invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever (1) and ever (1). Amen.
    (1) αἰών/aion (2) ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos
    In this verse “aion” is in apposition, see def. below, with “immortal.” If “aion” means “age(s),” a finite period, God cannot be for “a finite period” and “immortal” at the same time. God is “eternal” and “immortal” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
    Romans 2:7
    (7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,(2) eternal (1) life:
    “Aion” is in apposition with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternity” and “immortality” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
    2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (1) weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;(3) but the things which are not seen are eternal.(1)
    (3) πρόσκαιρος/proskairos
    Here “aion” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Aion” cannot mean “age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is.
    2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal (1) in the heavens.
    Here “aion house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” An “aion” house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” “Aion” means “eternal.”
    Hebrews 7:24
    (24) But this man, because he continueth ever,(1) hath an unchangeable (4) priesthood.
    (4) ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos
    Here “unchangeable” is in apposition with “aion.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Melchizadek cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
    1 Peter 1:23
    (23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,(2) by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.(1)
    Here “incorruptible” is in apposition with “aion.” The seed of God cannot be “incorruptible” and only for “a finite period” at the same time. “Aion” means “eternal.”
    The definition of “apposition” from a Greek grammar.

    III. Nominative in Simple Apposition
    The nominative case (as well as the other cases) can be an appositive to another substantive in the same case. The usage is quite common. There are four features of simple apposition to be noted (the first two are structural clues; the last two features are semantic): An appositional construction inz’olz’es (1) two adjacent substantives (2)in the same case (40) (3) which refer to the same person or thing, (4) and have the same syntactical relation to the rest of the clause.
    The first substantive can belong to any category (e.g., subject, Predicate nom., etc.) and the second is merely a clarification, description, or identification of who or what is mentioned.(41) Thus, the appositive “piggy-backs” on the first nominative’s use, as it were. For this reason simple apposition is not an independent syntactical category.
    The appositive functions very much like a PN in a convertible proposition that is, it refers to the same thing as the first noun.(42) The difference, however, is that a PN makes an assertion about the S (an equative verb is either stated or implied); with appositives there is assumption, not assertion (no verb is in mind). In the sentence “Paul is an apostle,” apostle is a PN; in the sentence, “Paul the apostle is in prison,” apostle is in apposition to Paul.
    Footnotes:
    (40)The nom. occasionally is in apposition to an oblique case, but the semantics are the same. See discussion below.
    (41) An appositive, strictly speaking, is substantival, not adjectival. Thus, adjectives or Participles in second attributive position are not generally appositives, but usually hate an adjectival force.
    (42) The significance of this will be seen in our discussion of the gen. case, for the gen can also involve a syntactical category, vi.t., the gen of apposition. The semantics involved in such a category are quite different from those involved in simple apposition.

    With proper names typically the first noun is anarthrous and the appositional noun is articular.
    Matt 3:1 παραγινεται ιωαννης ο βαπτιστης κηρυσσων

    John the Baptist came Preaching
    Mark 15:4 0 εν αις ην και μαρια η μαγδαληνη

    among them also were Mary the Magdalene...
    Luke 1:24 συνελαβεν ελισαβετ η γυνη αυτου

    Elizabeth his wife conceived
    Rev 1:5 ο μαρτυς ο πιστος ο πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων

    the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead
    Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, Grand Rapids MI, 1996, Daniel Wallace, pp.48-49
     
  6. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Why I believe Hell is not eternal punishment, but rather total annihilation OP

    Total annihilation -?

    Concept of Understanding.

    Matt.10
    1. [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    God is Life. God does not destroy life. God imparts and departs life in and out of things He has created and made. God is Life. When God departs life out of a thing, His Life returns to Him.

    Not a mystery; God imparts life into men, souls, spirits. The Life itself can never die, it is Gods Life and belongs to Him, is Him, and returns to Him. However the things, void of His Live, absolutely, can die, be separated from Him, be destroyed, be drowned, be burned.

    Mans understanding - total destruction = exists no more.

    Gods understanding - nothing he has created or made becomes "non-existent".

    Everything that God ever created or made from the beginning, still exists.
    The understanding is - the thing is simply in another fashion, form, perhaps unrecognizable, perhaps naked to the human eye, perhaps not called the same "thing"; none the less; it still exists.

    A body; A soul; destroyed in hell, will have life from God departed from it; it will no longer be recognizable; it will be forever in that unrecognizable condition.

    A spirit on the other hand exists by way of Gods "Seed", and can never have life departed from it. It is alive forever.

    (And BTW, IS Gods Just goodness and mercy, for a man, who has never submitted to God, DOES NOT, receive "forever" Life from God. Thus can not be "physically" in pain, as his lifeless body, and lifeless soul, burn and forever become smoke)

    Spirits, However, that have fallen from Gods Grace, ie fallen angels; they are alive forever, and shall for ever burn alive, and their smoke shall forever rise upward.


    Rev 14
    [11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Rev 19
    [20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Brimstone - ie stone highly concentrated plentiful sulfur which easily burns and maintains it fire and heat and stinks, shall maintain the pit fire.

    So annihilation? More so....

    Forever changed from its existing form to another matter form, unrecognizable from its original form.


    (And - oddly enough - a change applies to both the saved and unsaved - but they are not changed to the same "kind" of form)

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  8. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Still haven't seen any scripture that says the torment or punishment ends.


    Here are the scriptures that says it is everlasting.

    since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

    • These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

    9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

    12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


    • the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,


    If you have a scripture that says the punishment is temporary then please post it.



    JLB
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That was in my posts. Also there is Daniel 12:2-3:

    The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

    2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
    and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
    of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
    (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

    The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

    The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Daniel 12:3:

    καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

    Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

    eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

    εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

    So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further" & similarly.

    3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
    and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Daniel 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

    2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; 3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Daniel 12:2-3, Rotherham)

    2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
    3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
    * for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

    Daniel 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning in John 3:16 & elsewhere.

    Verse 3 speaks of those bringing "many" to righteousness. The "many" of verse 2, i.e. universal salvation.

    One of the strongest passages against UR, is actually one of the strongest in favor of it.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  10. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Universal salvation is heresy.


    9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

    12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12


    • the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,


    Sorry, but there is nothing temporary about the torment forever and ever.



    JLB
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Not necessarily true. For example Jesus used the word death in two different ways in one verse. Can dead bodies bury other dead bodies?
    Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.[Luke 9:60]
    That the translators of the LXX used the Greek word "eti" is not compelling since the Hebrew scholars who translated the 1917 JPS, translated "ad" as "ever." This is known as cherry picking, find something, somewhere which seems to support one's argument then ignore all other evidence.
    JPS Daniel 12:3
    (3) And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn the many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
    Word usage alone does not necessarily dictate meaning since words can be used figuratively as Jesus used "dead" figuratively in Matt 8:22. Here are several passages which define the meaning of "olam" and "ad"
    Eighteen examples of the Hebrew “olam” in apposition which shows conclusively it means eternal.

    Exodus 3:15
    [1](15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition, see definition below, to “unto all generations.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“eternal” does.
    Psalms 119:44
    [2](44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “continually.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “continually,” “eternal” does.
    Psalms 21:4
    [3](4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad][/quote]

    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “length of days”. “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “length of days, “eternal does.

    Psalms 45:17
    [4](17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “all generations”, “eternal” does.
    Ezekiel 27:36
    [5](36) The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]
    In this vs. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.
    Ezekiel 28:19
    [6](19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]
    In this vs. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.
    Psa 33:11
    [7](11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.
    Psa 146:10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the [8]LORD.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.
    Psa 37:28
    [9](28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

    even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “unto all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,” “eternal” does.
    [10]

    Ecc 3:14
    (14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
    In this vs. nothing can be added or taken away from God acts. “age(s),“ a finite period, does not equate to “nothing can be added or taken away from God acts” “eternal” does.
    Isa 51:6
    [11](6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” does.
    Isa 51:8
    [12](8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “generation to generation,”age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “generation to generation,” “eternal” does.
    [13]

    Dan 4:34
    (34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “from generation to generation,”age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” does.
    Dan 4:3
    [14](3) How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal [ עולם] kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “from generation to generation,”age(s),” does not equate to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” does.
    Dan 7:14
    [15](14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away, never be destroyed”, “eternal” does.
    Jer 23:40
    [16](40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם] —everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will not be forgotten,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””eternal” does.
    Jer 50:5
    [17](5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”eternal” does.
    Hab 1:12
    [18](12) LORD, are you not from everlasting? [ עולם] My God, my Holy One, you will never die. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “will never die,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will never die,” ”eternal” does.
    Here are four examples of the Hebrew “ad” in apposition which show conclusively that it means “eternal.”

    Psa 21:4
    [1](4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever [עד/ad]
    In this vs. “ad” is in apposition to “length of days.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “length of days,” “eternal” does.
    Psa 119:44
    [2](44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “ad” is in apposition with “continually.” “age(s)” does not equate to “continually” “eternal” does.
    Psa 45:17
    [3](17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “ad” is in apposition with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “all generations.” Eternal does.
    Pro 12:19
    [4](19) The lip of truth shall be established for ever: [עד/ad] but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
    In this vs. “ad” is contrasted with ”for a moment.” “Age(s)” is not opposite to “for a moment” “eternal” is.
    The definition of “apposition” from a Hebrew grammar.

    §131. Apposition.
    131a 1. Apposition in the stricter sense is the collocation of two substantives in the same case in order to define more exactly (or to complete) the one by the other, and, as a rule (see, however, below, under g), the former by the latter. Apposition in Hebrew (as in the other Semitic languages[1]) is by no means confined to those cases in which it is used in English or in the classical languages. It is not infrequently found when either the subordination of one substantive to the other or some more circumstantial kind of epexegetical addition would be expected.
    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesenius'_Hebrew_Grammar/131._Apposition
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I already addressed this in post #64 above.


    ------------------



    10 I see the experience that God gives To the sons of humanity to humble them by it. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, God, does from the beginning to the end.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He is lacking in power, love or wisdom?

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  13. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Do you see the phrase forever and ever having no rest day or night as temporary.

    The way to address this question is with a yes or a no.


    JLB
     
  14. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  15. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  16. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  17. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  18. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
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  19. vinsight4u

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Greek in Rev.14:11 says aionos aionon = ages of ages

    Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

    There is no "forever and ever" there.

    Where is this mythical make-belief self contradictory nonsensical "forever and ever" coming from?

    Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. (Prov.30:6)

    And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, into the ages of ages. (Rev.5:13)

    Chapter Five
     
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