The historicity of the pre-trib rapture of the Church has always come directly from the Scriptures.

[Quasar92]

The angels are not gathering a raptured church from Heaven, where God dwells!

Jer. 49: 36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

The events of this passage are on this earth.

Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth.

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The events of this passage are on the earth.

Zech 2: 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.

The events of this passage are on the earth

In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells.

Likewise the passage in Matthew does not describe a roundup of resurrected believers from heaven (where God dwells).

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Deuteronomy 30:3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:



5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Your initial statement to my remarks pertaining to Mt.24:31 was: "The angels are not gathering a raptured church from Heaven, where God dwells!"

Which is opinion without any Scriptural support whatever.

Please tell me how the elect from one end of the heavens to the other, got there, if it wasn't from the following Scriptures tell us how, in Jn.14:2-3 and 38; 1 Thess.4:14-17; and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Quasar92

 

[Postvieww]

Your initial statement to my remarks pertaining to Mt.24:31 was: "The angels are not gathering a raptured church from Heaven, where God dwells!"

Which is opinion without any Scriptural support whatever.

Please tell me how the elect from one end of the heavens to the other, got there, if it wasn't from the following Scriptures tell us how, in Jn.14:2-3 and 38; 1 Thess.4:14-17; and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Quasar92

I gave detailed scriptural support for my statement. Do you have a real rebuttal to the point I made?


You just ignored it with a question as a diversion. Let the readers decide.

 

[Quasar92]

I gave detailed scriptural support for my statement. Do you have a real rebuttal to the point I made?


You just ignored it with a question as a diversion. Let the readers decide.

There wasn't a single Scripture you posted relevant to Mt.24:31, as follows:

Mt.24:31 "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather his elect from the four winds [Israel], from one end of the heavens to the other." [the raptured Church who return with Him recorded in Rev.19:14]. Parenthetics mine.


Quasar92
"

 

[BABerean2]

Your initial statement to my remarks pertaining to Mt.24:31 was: "The angels are not gathering a raptured church from Heaven, where God dwells!"

Which is opinion without any Scriptural support whatever.

Please tell me how the elect from one end of the heavens to the other, got there, if it wasn't from the following Scriptures tell us how, in Jn.14:2-3 and 38; 1 Thess.4:14-17; and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.


Quasar92

The Coming of the Son of Man

Mar 13:24　 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;　
Mar 13:25　 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.　
Mar 13:26　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.　
Mar 13:27　 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.　



The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

.

 

[Postvieww]

There wasn't a single Scripture you posted relevant to Mt.24:31, as follows:

Mt.24:31 "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather his elect from the four winds [Israel], from one end of the heavens to the other." [the raptured Church who return with Him recorded in Rev.19:14]. Parenthetics mine.


Quasar92
"

The Law of First Mention

The "law of first-mention" is the principle in the interpretation of Scripture which states that the first mention or occurrence of a subject in Scripture establishes an unchangeable pattern, with that subject remaining unchanged in the mind of God throughout Scripture.

As a trained teacher of Bible truth you should be familiar with this principal.


In post #19 I gave the first mention of the phrase “four winds of heaven” In Jeremiah 49:36


Now you want us to accept your word Matthew 24 Is different from all of the rest. Based on what?


I did leave out one from my post, but it is the same as all the rest.


Daniel 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.


As a trained expositor you should also know every mention of heaven does not refer to where God dwells.

 

[Matthew-59]

 

[Quasar92]

The Coming of the Son of Man

Mar 13:24　 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;　
Mar 13:25　 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.　
Mar 13:26　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.　
Mar 13:27　 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.　



The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

.

To correct the record: What you are using as something I quoted are not of my origin, but that of someone else that I quoted.

As for the rest of your post, You don't want to ever forget, Jesus is bringing the Church with Him, when He returns to the earth in His second coming, as recorded below:

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

You don't want to ever forget, Jesus is bringing the Church with Him, when He returns to the earth in His second coming, as recorded below:

Below we have a quote from a famous writer about the historicity of the pre-trib rapture.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998


.

 

[Quasar92]

Below we have a quote from a famous writer about the historicity of the pre-trib rapture.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998


.

The following four post link of mine, is the documentation of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. Either prove by Scripture any of it is false, or the views you are promoting are!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

The following four post link of mine, is the documentation of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. Either prove by Scripture any of it is false, or the views you are promoting are!

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

We're still waiting to hear from you regarding the more than fifty English Bible versions which translate 2 Thess. 2:3 as apostasy rather than rapture.

 

[Postvieww]

Either prove by Scripture any of it is false, or the views you are promoting are!

Quasar 92 said on below web site:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the-pretrib-rapture-of-the-Church - .WYFIpumQwa4



2 Corinthians 5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul was not referring to a resurrected body in the above passage he was referring to the spirit of man at death returning to God. That is confirmed by Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The theory put forth here that all the dead in Christ are resurrected at death and not at the return of Christ is error.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The spirits of the dead in Christ will return with Christ at His coming.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Those alive when Christ returns will not be changed prior to the spirits of the dead in Christ receiving their resurrection, eternal bodies.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead shall rise first, first being before those that are alive and remain. The dead shall rise, after the Lord descends from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God not upon their physical death. This verse 16 refutes the false notion the dead in Christ are raised at the time of their physical death.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THEN, after the dead are raise at His coming, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up with the dead who were raised at His coming.


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

This is a one time event not one that is repeated at the death of every believer in Christ

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The above passage refutes the notion all believers are resurrected at death.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The dead in Christ will be raised up at the last day not at the time of their death.

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

This part I don't think will happen. I believe we will be transferred into another dimension/realm, that will be unseen from the earth. Is there any biblical proof of this?
I believe that the "twinkling of an eye" is the dimension/realm shift time... and no one here on earth will be able to see it. Yes/No? Then the angel meets us and wisks us away up to Heaven.

I think twinkling of an eye is Planck's Time , so short that sometimes i wonder if i will be able to bite my pizza just orderedand i will be left with my hand near my mouth like stupid in the air while facing Christ himself .

 

[keras]

Mt.24:31 "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather his elect from the four winds [Israel], from one end of the heavens to the other." [the raptured Church who return with Him recorded in Rev.19:14]. Parenthetics mine.

The 'elect' are not ethnic Israel. 1 Peter 2:9-10 They are every faithful Christian person.

Jesus will Return accompanied by His angels. Proved by Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels......

Re the OP; what does come directly from scripture, is the Words of Jesus:
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only our souls, after death, go back to the One who made them.

 

[Quasar92]

The Law of First Mention

The "law of first-mention" is the principle in the interpretation of Scripture which states that the first mention or occurrence of a subject in Scripture establishes an unchangeable pattern, with that subject remaining unchanged in the mind of God throughout Scripture.

As a trained teacher of Bible truth you should be familiar with this principal.


In post #19 I gave the first mention of the phrase “four winds of heaven” In Jeremiah 49:36


Now you want us to accept your word Matthew 24 Is different from all of the rest. Based on what?


I did leave out one from my post, but it is the same as all the rest.


Daniel 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.


As a trained expositor you should also know every mention of heaven does not refer to where God dwells.

Jesus as told us in more than one place that God dwells in heaven, Starting with Mt.6:9-13. Your above is a nit icking aray of opinion that does not begin to negate thte teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Nor hsave you explained how the elect got in heaven in.Mt.24:31, where they will be for the mrrige to the Lamb/Jesus, before returning with Him, when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Mt.24:30 and Rev.19:7-8 and 14, Confirming Zech.14>4-5.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

The 'elect' are not ethnic Israel. 1 Peter 2:9-10 They are every faithful Christian person.

Jesus will Return accompanied by His angels. Proved by Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels......

Re the OP; what does come directly from scripture, is the Words of Jesus:
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only our souls, after death, go back to the One who made them.

There is only one Israel, who rejected Jesus as their Messiah, are presently non-believers. Who will not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, until His second coming, at the end of the tribulation, in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.

All other Israelis who believe in Jesus, belong to His One Body, the Church, s recoded o 1 Cor.12:12-13. Belief that they are a so called "spiritual Israel," separate from national Israel, is a non-Scriptural heresy.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Quasar 92 said on below web site:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the-pretrib-rapture-of-the-Church - .WYFIpumQwa4



2 Corinthians 5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul was not referring to a resurrected body in the above passage he was referring to the spirit of man at death returning to God. That is confirmed by Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The theory put forth here that all the dead in Christ are resurrected at death and not at the return of Christ is error.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The spirits of the dead in Christ will return with Christ at His coming.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Those alive when Christ returns will not be changed prior to the spirits of the dead in Christ receiving their resurrection, eternal bodies.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead shall rise first, first being before those that are alive and remain. The dead shall rise, after the Lord descends from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God not upon their physical death. This verse 16 refutes the false notion the dead in Christ are raised at the time of their physical death.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THEN, after the dead are raise at His coming, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up with the dead who were raised at His coming.


John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

This is a one time event not one that is repeated at the death of every believer in Christ

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The above passage refutes the notion all believers are resurrected at death.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The dead in Christ will be raised up at the last day not at the time of their death.

The bove is n example of jumping to false conclisions of what I have posted and what ws meant. You labor under false pretenses.

In 2 Cor.5:6-8, is clearly a spiritual RAISING of the believer's spirit/soul, at the time of His death, as I have ALWYS implied. Furthermore, I also believe, they receive a glorified spiritual body at that time, according to 1 Cor.5:44, in the very same way those who are left on earth alive at His coming, in 1Thess.4:14-17, will be, when they are translated to meet Jesus in the Sky, from where He will take them all into heaven with Him, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3 and 28.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

We're still waiting to hear from you regarding the more than fifty English Bible versions which translate 2 Thess. 2:3 as apostasy rather than rapture.

Where have you been since I posted it previously, together with 50 reasons for the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Listen up, this time! How many of those 50 English translators of the Bible are aware of the alteration of the original translation of 2 Thess.2:3, four centuries ago? Changed from the historical historical original translation for 17 centuries before. None of them! You have no argument attempting to negate the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, proven to you on this website many times over.


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

Where have you been since I posted it previously, together with 50 reasons for the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Listen up, this time! How many of those 50 English translators of the Bible are aware of the alteration of the original translation of 2 Thess.2:3, four centuries ago? Changed from the historical historical original translation for 17 centuries before. None of them! You have no argument attempting to negate the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, proven to you on this website many times over.


Quasar92

Fifty translators, and not a one of them aware of the alteration. Imagine that.

Have you contacted any (e.g. NASB as I suggested) to confirm their unawareness?

 

[BABerean2]

There is only one Israel, who rejected Jesus as their Messiah, are presently non-believers. Who will not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, until His second coming, at the end of the tribulation, in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.

The Two Peoples of God doctrine, found above, is at least partially responsible for the pitiful effort the modern Church has put into taking the Gospel to the Jewish people.

The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31, and the timeline of Daniel 9 prove that the baby born in a manger is the New Covenant Messiah foretold in the Hebrew scriptures.

The short video below proves that your statement above is wrong.
Modern Jews can and are recognizing Jesus as their Messiah, at the present time.

 

[Quasar92]

Fifty translators, and not a one of them aware of the alteration. Imagine that.

Have you contacted any (e.g. NASB as I suggested) to confirm their unawareness?

More meaningless opinions coming from an empty wagon without a shred of Scriptural support to verify it.

The act of the matter is, there was only seven English translations of the Bible, in the 17th century, when the alteration by KJV scribes took place. From which the proof has been given to you many times over, what the intended and proper historical translation of 2 Thess.2:3 was, for 17 centuries, from a well qualified source.


Quasar92