The historicity of the pre-trib rapture of the Church has always come directly from the Scriptures.

[Hal A Peno]

Woulod you care to explain how the Church would exist without the Holy Spirit? Nothing moot about it!


Quasar92

The holy spirit being gone is another pre-trib idea gone bad and it's what you believe, and can't even prove. Like I said, there are saints, servants, fellow servants, bretheren, martys, two witnesses/prophets etc. mentioned between Revelation 4-19. So to say the church and the holy spirit is missing IS MOOT!
That would mean the two witnesses wouldn't have the Holy Spirit, I have to wonder how they pull off what they do without it.

 

[Quasar92]

The holy spirit being gone is another pre-trib idea gone bad and it's what you believe, and can't even prove. Like I said, there are saints, servants, fellow servants, bretheren, martys, two witnesses/prophets etc. mentioned between Revelation 4-19. So to say the church and the holy spirit is missing IS MOOT!
That would mean the two witnesses wouldn't have the Holy Spirit, I have to wonder how they pull off what they do without it.

John 7:39 and Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3 have nothing whatever to do with the pe-trib rapture of the Church. BTW, Rev.1:3 tells you it is a book of PROPHECY.

Where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?


Quasar92

 

[Hal A Peno]

John 7:39 and Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3 have nothing whatever to do with the pe-trib rapture of the Church. BTW, Rev.1:3 tells you it is a book of PROPHECY.

Where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?


Quasar92

I don't think I quoted those scriptures. What does it matter where I obtain my knowledge or qualifications?

 

[BABerean2]

The Church IS NOT Israel.


Quasar92

Let me see if I understand you...

Christ announced that He would fulfill the New Covenant in His Blood at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

And the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and includes the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34, but you claim it has nothing to do with the New Covenant Church, even though the word "church" is found in the New Covenant passage of Hebrews 12:22-24.

Apparently you cannot define who "Israel" is, either as a group based on religion, or genealogy.

And then you claim that this group, which you cannot define, will come to salvation at the moment of Christ's Second Coming, no matter what Jesus said in the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25.

And you say those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11 cannot be members of the New Covenant Church, even though the New Covenant announced by Christ in Matthew 26:28 is the Blood Covenant fulfilled at Calvary. Is there more than one New Covenant fulfilled by the Blood of Christ?

And Peter addressing the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36 on the Day of Pentecost, has nothing to do with the New Covenant Church.

And Paul revealing that he is an Israelite in Romans 11:1-5, has nothing to do with the New Covenant Church.

How many years of study did it take to develop this system of logic?

 

[Quasar92]

I don't think I quoted those scriptures. What does it matter where I obtain my knowledge or qualifications?

Qualifications to teach the Bible, let lone eschatology, calls for Scripturally based support, rather than dogmatic opinion.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Let me see if I understand you...

Christ announced that He would fulfill the New Covenant in His Blood at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

And the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and includes the exact text from Jeremiah 31:31-34, but you claim it has nothing to do with the New Covenant Church, even though the word "church" is found in the New Covenant passage of Hebrews 12:22-24.

Apparently you cannot define who "Israel" is, either as a group based on religion, or genealogy.

And then you claim that this group, which you cannot define, will come to salvation at the moment of Christ's Second Coming, no matter what Jesus said in the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25.

And you say those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11 cannot be members of the New Covenant Church, even though the New Covenant announced by Christ in Matthew 26:28 is the Blood Covenant fulfilled at Calvary. Is there more than one New Covenant fulfilled by the Blood of Christ?

And Peter addressing the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36 on the Day of Pentecost, has nothing to do with the New Covenant Church.

And Paul revealing that he is an Israelite in Romans 11:1-5, has nothing to do with the New Covenant Church.

How many years of study did it take to develop this system of logic?

The above oracle that a trained and qualified teacher of the Bible doesn't know how to define Israel, is a statement that is not only blatantly false, but comes from a badly deceived source. I have provided you with the Scriptural fcts that clearly reveal the nation of Israel HAS NOT received Jesus as their Messiah. Which is what the New Covenant is all about. I have told you when it became effective and when believers became membrs of Jesus Body, His Church.

That they DO NOT somehow become Jews or members of Israel. Which is a heresy you will NEVER be able to prove from the Scriptures without falsifying the interpretation of them. When are you going to stop arguing about this and beating a dead horse?


Quasar92

 

[Hal A Peno]

Qualifications to teach the Bible, let lone eschatology, calls for Scripturally based support, rather than dogmatic opinion.


Quasar92

So what are you saying? I'm not supporting what I believe by not quoting scripture? At least I show people how I arrive at my OPINION/conclusion. I show people why I believe what I believe by using logic and by using as many good bible resources I can. You are more into posting other authors to support your beliefs. I can say, as opposed to many others, that at least you do do some homework.
Besides that, you don't know me or my past so it's common for people to come up with that sort of line to prop themselves up.

 

[Postvieww]

First of all let me apologize for not resonding to all o your posts. My priorities are different than yours, as a single, independently living 94 year old, I respond to others on this site addition to yours, when and as my time permits.

Understood, I’ll pull out just one point from my post you quoted but did not address specifically.

In post #45 you took the time to post a very lengthy restating of your pretrib theory but did not specifically address my challenge below.


Quasar92 said: ↑


In 2 Cor.5:6-8, is clearly a spiritual RAISING of the believer's spirit/soul, at the time of His death, as I have ALWYS implied. Furthermore, I also believe, they receive a glorified spiritual body at that time,

From post #42:

“Except for the fact Jesus and Paul disagree with you on the timing. Paul said it happens after The coming of Christ just before those that are alive and remain are changed, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Jesus said 4 times in John 6 it would be at “the last day”. That is not the last day of a believers life it is that last day at His coming as stated elsewhere.”

In addition, I was unaware of any "debate" set up between us.

Anything posted by any of us is subject to debate.

 

[Quasar92]

Understood, I’ll pull out just one point from my post you quoted but did not address specifically.

In post #45 you took the time to post a very lengthy restating of your pretrib theory but did not specifically address my challenge below.


Quasar92 said: ↑


In 2 Cor.5:6-8, is clearly a spiritual RAISING of the believer's spirit/soul, at the time of His death, as I have ALWYS implied. Furthermore, I also believe, they receive a glorified spiritual body at that time,

From post #42:

“Except for the fact Jesus and Paul disagree with you on the timing. Paul said it happens after The coming of Christ just before those that are alive and remain are changed, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Jesus said 4 times in John 6 it would be at “the last day”. That is not the last day of a believers life it is that last day at His coming as stated elsewhere.”




Anything posted by any of us is subject to debate.

There is no disagreement between what Jesus and Paul said to what I have written at all. You are not paying attention to either the time frame in which they made their statements, or who they were each addressing.

Jesus first advent was EXCLUSIVELY addressed to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. Paul was clearly addressing the Church [Thessalonian].

The Church consists of Jews and Gentiles alike who believe and have received Jesus as Lord and Savior, who have all been baptized by the Holy Spirit, according to 1 Cor.12:12-13.

The Church will be CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the sky, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven as He promised us, BEFORE the tribulation begins, according to: Jn.14:2-3 and 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. The marriage between the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, will take place in heaven, according to Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth WITH Huis Church following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, according to Rev.19:14. Confirming Zech.14:4-5.

Hope this helps.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus first advent was EXCLUSIVELY addressed to Israel

Jesus and the Woman of Samaria

Joh 4:1　 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John　
Joh 4:2　 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),　
Joh 4:3　 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee.　
Joh 4:4　 But He needed to go through Samaria.　
Joh 4:5　 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.　
Joh 4:6　 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.　
Joh 4:7　 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink."　
Joh 4:8　 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.　
Joh 4:9　 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.　
Joh 4:10　 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."　
Joh 4:11　 The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water?　
Joh 4:12　 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?"　
Joh 4:13　 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again,　
Joh 4:14　 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."　
Joh 4:15　 The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw."　
Joh 4:16　 Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here."　
Joh 4:17　 The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You have well said, 'I have no husband,'　
Joh 4:18　 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly."　
Joh 4:19　 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.　
Joh 4:20　 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."　
Joh 4:21　 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.　
Joh 4:22　 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.　
Joh 4:23　 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.　
Joh 4:24　 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."　
Joh 4:25　 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."　
Joh 4:26　 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."　

.

 

[Quasar92]

Jesus and the Woman of Samaria

Joh 4:1　 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John　
Joh 4:2　 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),　
Joh 4:3　 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee.　
Joh 4:4　 But He needed to go through Samaria.　
Joh 4:5　 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.　
Joh 4:6　 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.　
Joh 4:7　 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink."　
Joh 4:8　 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.　
Joh 4:9　 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.　
Joh 4:10　 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."　
Joh 4:11　 The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water?　
Joh 4:12　 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?"　
Joh 4:13　 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again,　
Joh 4:14　 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."　
Joh 4:15　 The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw."　
Joh 4:16　 Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here."　
Joh 4:17　 The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You have well said, 'I have no husband,'　
Joh 4:18　 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly."　
Joh 4:19　 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.　
Joh 4:20　 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."　
Joh 4:21　 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.　
Joh 4:22　 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.　
Joh 4:23　 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.　
Joh 4:24　 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."　
Joh 4:25　 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."　
Joh 4:26　 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."　

.

The meeting of Jesus with the Samaritan woman was by chance and does not alter His commands and mission in any way:


Mt.10:5 "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel."


Mt.15:24 "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."



Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

The meeting of Jesus with the Samaritan woman was by chance

Nothing that Jesus ever did was "by chance".

He was sent first to Israel, but as revealed in John 10:16 there is to be one flock, with one shepherd.


.

 

[jgr]

The meeting of Jesus with the Samaritan woman was by chance

You can't be serious.

Jesus was under the explicit direction of His Father at all times (John 5:19). Why did He need to go through Samaria? (John 4:4)

Because His Father was sending Him for divine appointment with the woman at the well.

 

[Quasar92]

Nothing that Jesus ever did was "by chance".

He was sent first to Israel, but as revealed in John 10:16 there is to be one flock, with one shepherd.


.

Jn.10:16 is Prophecy, not history! The two sheep folds are Israel and the Church, that will become one fold with one Shepherd. Which will be fulfilled when Jesus is sitting on the throne of David, as recorded in Acts 2:29-30; 15:16 and in Rev.20:6!

FYI, while Jesus was resting, the Samaritan woman came down for water at the well where He was sitting - BY CHANCE!


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

Jn.10:16 is Prophecy, not history! The two sheep folds are Israel and the Church, that will become one fold with one Shepherd. Which will be fulfilled when Jesus is sitting on the throne of David, as recorded in Acts 2:29-30; 15:16 and in Rev.20:6!

FYI, while Jesus was resting, the Samaritan woman came down for water at the well where He was sitting - BY CHANCE!


Quasar92

Your Two Peoples of God doctrine has been weighed and found lacking.

It only works by ignoring the word "Israel" in Acts chapter 2, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Romans 11.

It is a modern doctrine brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War. This is a historical fact.

It spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in America after the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible, whose notes at Revelation 14:6 claim that the Gospel during the tribulation period is not of Grace.

It replaces the One Seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

It replaces Grace, with at doctrine at least partially based on race, by ignoring in 1 Timothy 1:4.

It attempts to ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Some of its proponents will say almost anything to prop up their doctrine.
Claiming that any event recorded in the Bible occurred "By CHANCE", is just one example of many...

.

 

[Quasar92]

Your Two Peoples of God doctrine has been weighed and found lacking.

It only works by ignoring the word "Israel" in Acts chapter 2, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Romans 11.

It is a modern doctrine brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War. This is a historical fact.

It spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in America after the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible, whose notes at Revelation 14:6 claim that the Gospel during the tribulation period is not of Grace.

It replaces the One Seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It replaces the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

It replaces Grace, with at doctrine at least partially based on race, by ignoring in 1 Timothy 1:4.

It attempts to ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Some of its proponents will say almost anything to prop up their doctrine.
Claiming that any event recorded in the Bible occurred "By CHANCE", is just one example of many...

.

What I post of the Scriptural facts and truth worked in the past, will work now and forevermore! Capiche?! Your above is the epitome of opinionated speculation.

Check out the following that refute your tired above views:

The Good Shepherd and His sheep

Jn.10:16 "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd"

Jesus is addressing His disciples, as Israel; does He or does He not clearly state that He has another sheep pen? Or are you going to continue beating a dead horse claiming they are only one?

The other sheep pen Jesus is referring to, IS HIS CHURCH. That the two sheep folds will become one, with one Shepherd, is a prophecy that will be fulfilled at Jesus second coming. After non-believing Israel finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah, in Zech.12:10 and in 14:5-6.

The one Body of Christ, His Church, consist of both Israelis/Jews and Gentiles, baptized by the Holy Spirit, as recorded in 1 Cor.2:12-13.



Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

What I post of the Scriptural facts and truth worked in the past, will work now and forevermore! Capiche?! Your above is the epitome of opinionated speculation.

Check out the following that refute your tired above views:

The Good Shepherd and His sheep

Jn.10:16 "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd"

Jesus is addressing His disciples, as Israel; does He or does He not clearly state that He has another sheep pen? Or are you going to continue beating a dead horse claiming they are only one?

The other sheep pen Jesus is referring to, IS HIS CHURCH. That the two sheep folds will become one, with one Shepherd, is a prophecy that will be fulfilled at Jesus second coming. After non-believing Israel finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah, in Zech.12:10 and in 14:5-6.

The one Body of Christ, His Church, consist of both Israelis/Jews and Gentiles, baptized by the Holy Spirit, as recorded in 1 Cor.2:12-13.



Quasar92

Not even the notes of the Scofield Bible, found below, agree with what you have above.
He was able to clearly see that the two folds are Jewish and Gentile.

John 10:16

other sheep
That is, not of the Jewish fold, but Gentiles. (Joh_10:4); (Isa_56:8); (Joh_17:20); (Act_15:7-9).

.

 

[Quasar92]

Not even the notes of the Scofield Bible, found below, agree with what you have above.
He was able to clearly see that the two folds are Jewish and Gentile.

John 10:16

other sheep
That is, not of the Jewish fold, but Gentiles. (Joh_10:4); (Isa_56:8); (Joh_17:20); (Act_15:7-9).

.

The above is meaningless opinionated speculation, and is worthless without a shred of Scriptural support. Let me see your scriptural proof to refute my post #76. It clearly refutes the views you have.


Quasar92

 

[BABerean2]

The meaningless opinionated speculation is worthless without a shred of Scriptural support.

Since you have listed D.D. C.I. Scofield as one of your past sources, it would not be "meaningless opinionated speculation" to provide the commentary found in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, which do not agree with your opinion.


.

 

[Quasar92]

Since you have listed D.D. C.I. Scofield as one of your past sources, it would not be "meaningless opinionated speculation" to provide the commentary found in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, which do not agree with your opinion.


.

I'll be happy to oblige, since the views I post are so troublesome to you. When you show me where I wrote a single thing about C.I Scofield being one of my sources. He is sure another thorn in your hide, isn't he?!


Quasar92