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Featured The historicity of the pre-trib rapture of the Church has always come directly from the Scriptures.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    First of all, have you ever wondered how the elect, Jesus angels gather from one end of the heavens to the other got there at Jesus second coming to the earth, on Mt.24:31? We know the elect they gather from the four winds refer to Israel. So how did those elec get into heaven?

    Beginning with Jn.14:2-4 and 28:"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

    "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

    A look at 1 Thes.4:13-17:

    "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

    "According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15.

    "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." Vs 16.

    "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

    The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

    "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

    In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below. Jerome translated the Greek "apostasia," to the Latin "discessio" in vs 3, which means "departure" also.

    The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:

    In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way."

    The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," the rapture of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

    In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

    Notice where you find the raptured Church returning with Jesus from the marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, in His second coming in ve.14, confirming Zech,14:4-5; Jude 14.

    Also notice how Jesus angels are gathering His elect from the four winds [Israel] and from the one end of the heavens to the other [Church], according to Mt.24:31. When they are seen returning with Him, from their marriage in heaven in Rev.19: 7-8 and 14.

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  2. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

    Nope, I never wondered that.

    Actually, the elect are God's people from all time. All the dead first, and then in the twinkling of an eye, we who remain alive. It all happens at once.

    They didn't, yet. The "heaven" that they are gathered from is the stratosphere, the atmosphere around earth. Many billions of resurrected saints fly out of their graves at mach 90 and appear in the sky. In the next split second, we who remain alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye and we join them. Many billions of the elect congregate in the stratosphere. Some shine like the brightness of the sky, some like the stars forever and ever.

    "And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call,
    and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    The angels are gathering us from the 1st heaven, the atmosphere around earth. Not the 3rd Heaven, we didn't get to the dwelling place of God yet. Everyone of us will get an angel to grab us and tell us where to stand.

    Can you imagine the numbers? For each one of the many billions of elect from all time, there's a corresponding gathering angel there. This will be a horrifying spectacle to see from the ground.

    And then all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

    Peaceful Sabbath.
  3. Matthew-59

    Matthew-59 Space Invader Supporter

    Wow! I like both ya'lls posts. :amen:

    I have also thought of this too....
    It is an amazing thing to think about. :)
  4. Matthew-59

    Matthew-59 Space Invader Supporter

    This part I don't think will happen. I believe we will be transferred into another dimension/realm, that will be unseen from the earth. Is there any biblical proof of this?
    I believe that the "twinkling of an eye" is the dimension/realm shift time... and no one here on earth will be able to see it. Yes/No? Then the angel meets us and wisks us away up to Heaven. :)
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Who was Jesus talking to in the Olivet Discourse?

    Mar 13:1  Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" 
    Mar 13:2  And Jesus answered and said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down." 

    Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,
    (These were the men who Christ already knew would be the leaders of His Church.)

    Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?" 
    Mar 13:5  And Jesus, answering them, began to say: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 

    The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from e-Sword)

    Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

    (Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 

    Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

    Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

    (Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. )


    Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

    (Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

    How many times does the word "elect" refer to Jews in the New Testament?

    Mat_24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    Mat_24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Mat_24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mar_13:20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

    Mar_13:22  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

    Mar_13:27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Luk_18:7  And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

    Rom_8:33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    Col_3:12  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    1Ti_5:21  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

    2Ti_2:10  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Tit_1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    1Pe_1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    1Pe_2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

    2Jn_1:1  The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

    2Jn_1:13  The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

    The word "elect" only refers to Jews when the promoters of modern Dispensational Theology need it to mean Jews, to make their Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

    As revealed by Acts 2:36, when the Church began on the Day of Pentecost is was made up of those from "all the house of Israel".

    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
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  6. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

    It seems to go without saying. I've read theories that we are intended to replace the "third" of the angels who fell. So there's probably enough holy angels for each saint to have two.

    I think so. I'm not dogmatic over this as an issue. But just like Jesus appeared after the resurrection in a physical body and ate real food with his disciples, I think that we also will have another type of body that can do both physical and spiritual specifications.

    Remember when Jesus cast out the demons in Matthew 8? Those demons would rather be put into a heard of pigs than to be floating around disembodied in the spirit realm. That's probably one reason God did the big bang. Drifting around in the vacuum of space is probably boring compared to interacting with atoms and molecules.

    “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine

    Then you've got the description of New Jerusalem in Revelation. Physical specifications like 1500 miles cubed, streets of gold, gates of pearl and walls made of precious stones. It would seem that great expense was made to let us know that we weren't going to be floating around in a disembodied spirit realm.

    "I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom

    It sounds like we're going to be drinking real wine and walking on real streets of gold. But then we'll probably be able to do a shape shift and fly over for a trip to Mars. It will be interesting to see.
  7. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter


    A critique of he Replacement theology, also know as Supersessionism: The Church is not Israel nor is Israel the Church:

    Replacement Theology

    Its Origins, Teachings and Errors

    By Dr. Gary Hedrick, President of CJF Ministries

    (With Minor Editing By Rabbi Loren)

    These are challenging and confusing times. With all the numerous and varied “winds of doctrine” that are blowing around us these days, many Christians find it difficult to discern the difference between truth and error. Here at CJF Ministries, one error we frequently encounter is Replacement Theology. Actually, it’s nothing new: in fact, it’s been around for centuries. Some of its roots are traceable to the writings of some of the Early Church fathers. And even today, oddly enough, this pernicious error is taught as a fact in many Bible colleges and seminaries worldwide. So let me ask you - how much do you know about Replacement Theology? If you were called upon to refute it, could you?


    Replacement Theology - reduced to its simplest form - teaches that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. The term “Replacement Theology” is relatively new and unfamiliar to many people (in some cases, even those who believe in it). Among theologians, the older and more widely used term is “supersessionism.” The Church “supersedes” Israel. Its proponents teach that God has set aside Israel and made the Church “new Israel,” the new and improved people of God. There are many variations within the broad spectrum of Replacement Theology, but two of the main approaches are these:

    1. Israel’s role as the people of God was completed (economic supersessionism). This is the kinder and gentler way of stating the basic thesis of Replacement Theology. It says that once the Messiah came 2,000 years ago, Israel’s mission was completed. A transition occurred at that point, and the Church took over as the people of God and became the focal point for the outworking of God’s plan and purpose in redemption. God is no longer working administratively through ethnic Israel.

    2. Israel’s place as the people of God was forfeited (punitive supersessionism). Other Replacement theologians are more straightforward and actually say that the supposed replacement of Israel was a divine judgment on the nation for its rejection of the Messiah in the first century. This is what some writers have called “punitive secessionism.”

    Perhaps Martin Luther articulated this position most eloquently when he wrote: “For such ruthless wrath of God is sufficient evidence that they [i.e., the Jewish people] assuredly have erred and gone astray. Even a child can comprehend this. For one dare not regard God as so cruel that he would punish his own people so long, so terrible, so unmercifully … Therefore this work of wrath is proof that the Jews, surely rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any longer their God” (“On the Jews and Their Lies,” Trans. Martin H. Bertram, in Luther’s Works [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971], p. 265).

    Common threads that weave their way through the numerous variations of supersessionism are (1) that God is finished with Israel as a nation, and (2) that the promises He made to Israel in the Old Testament have been inherited by the Church. (However, most Replacement theologians are reluctant to say that the Church - which is largely in apostasy today - has also inherited the curses and judgments that God pronounced on Israel for her apostasy.)

    One defender of Replacement Theology writes: “The Jewish nation no longer has a place as the special people of God; that place has been taken by the Christian community which fulfills God’s purpose for Israel” (Bruce Waltke, “Kingdom Promises as Spiritual,” in Continuity and Discontinuity: Perspectives on the Relationship Between the Testaments, Ed. John S. Feinberg [Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway, 1987] p. 275). This is how one evangelical theologian summarized the essence of supersessionism in a paper he presented at the Evangelical Theological Society annual meeting a few years ago: “The issue is whether national Israel as an administrative structure is still in the plan of God” (“A Future for Israel in Covenant Theology: The Untold Story” by R. Todd Mangum, Instructor in Historical and Systematic Theology at Biblical Theological Seminary in Hatfield, Pennsylvania [November 16, 2000], p. 20.

    Theological Basis

    Replacement Theology is closely associated with Reformed (or Covenant) Theology, the brand of theology historically linked to John Calvin (1509-1564) and the Protestant Reformation. Reformed/Covenant Theology, in turn, is closely associated with amillennialism, an eschatological view with a spiritualized (rather than literal-historical) interpretation of the prophetic Scriptures. The natural affinity these views (that is, Replacement Theology and amillennialism) seem to have for each other is understandable because Replacement Theology relies so heavily on a non-literal and allegorical interpretation of the biblical promises to Israel.

    Although many of the early Reformers and Puritans - including even Calvin himself - wrote about the nation of Israel one day being restored by the grace of God and experiencing a national regeneration, that is an increasingly marginalized, minority view in Reformed Christianity today (which is ironic, since we have seen the amazing rebirth of the nation of Israel, just as the Word of God predicted!). And even among those who allow for an end-time work of the Spirit of God among the Jewish people, there is still a reluctance to acknowledge that God is not finished with His people Israel as a nation, or to acknowledge the prospect of a future Kingdom on the Earth.

    This view stands in contrast to the teachings of Dispensational Premillennialism, which affirms the continuing role that Israel plays (in tandem with the Church) in the outworking of God’s plan of redemption.

    Historical Roots

    Elements of Replacement Theology can be traced as far back as Marcion (A.D. 160), who carried on a theological crusade to purge the Church of what he perceived to be dangerous Jewish errors and influences. Later, many of these same anti-Judaic sentiments found their way into the thinking (and writings) of the Early Church fathers. Irenaeus (c. 180), for instance, wrote, “The Jews have rejected the Son of God and cast Him out of the vineyard when they slew Him. Therefore, God has justly rejected them and has given to the Gentiles outside the vineyard the fruits of its cultivation” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, [1885-1887], Volume 1, p. 493).

    Over time, statements like these became the basis for full-blown anti-Semitism in some sectors of Christianity. Anything Jewish was renounced as an attempt to subvert and “Judaize” the Church. Teachings like chiliasm (millenarianism), for instance, were denounced as “Jewish fables.” The Early Church, which was clearly and undeniably Jewish, was described as “primitive,” unenlightened, and beset by erroneous notions that were carry-overs from ancient Judaism.

    By the seventh century, Jewish people who came to faith in the Messiah were required to denounce their Jewish ancestry and heritage before they could be baptized. Professor Paul Halsall of Fordham University cites the following Visigoth profession from c. A.D. 680-687: “I do here and now renounce every rite and observance of the Jewish religion, detesting all its most solemn ceremonies and tenets that in former days I kept and held. In future I will practice no rite or celebration connected with it, nor any custom of my past error, promising neither to seek it out or perform it. In the name of this Creed, which I truly believe and hold with all my heart, I promise that I will never return to the vomit of Jewish superstition. Never again will I fulfill any of the offices of Jewish ceremonies to which I was addicted, nor ever more hold them dear. I altogether deny and reject the errors of the Jewish religion, casting forth whatever conflicts with the Christian Faith, and affirming that my belief in the Holy Trinity is strong enough to make me live the truly Christian life, shun all intercourse with other Jews and have the circle of my friends only among honest Christians. With them or apart from them I must always eat Christian food, and as a genuinely devout Christian go often and reverently to Church. I promise also to maintain and embrace with due love and reverence the observance of all the Lord’s days or feasts for martyrs as declared by the piety of the Church, and upon those days to consort always with sincere Christians, as it behooves a pious and sincere Christian to do. Herewith is my profession of faith and belief as given by me on this date …” (“Professions of Faith Extracted from Jews on Baptism,’ from the Internet Medieval Sourcebook compiled by Professor Paul Halsall of Fordham University [www.fordham.edu/halsall/sources/jewish-oaths.html]).

    The incredible irony here is that only a few centuries earlier, the Church had been almost exclusively Jewish! The Messiah was Jewish; the writers of the Bible were Jewish; the apostles were Jewish; the earliest Christians were Jewish; the first congregation was Jewish (located in Jerusalem); and the first missionaries were Jewish!

    In fact, a council of Church leaders - including Paul, Barnabas, Peter and James - was convened at Jerusalem (Acts 15) so the leaders of the new and growing Messianic Movement (known first as “the sect of the Nazarenes,” Acts 24:5) could decide upon what conditions non-Jews would be admitted into the fellowship of the saints! But here, within just a few generations, the shoe was already on the other foot! Non-Jews were in control of the Church now. Jewish doctrines (the earthly Kingdom in particular) were considered erroneous and even seditious. And non-Jewish Church leaders were laying down the terms for Jewish believers in Jesus who wished to be baptized.

    Exegetical Problems with Supersessionism

    Did the sins of the Jewish nation result in her rejection? Paul’s answer is found in Romans 11: I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people whom He foreknew (vv. 1-2, NKJV). I say then, have they [Israel] stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! (vv. 11-12, NKJV). For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (v. 15, NKJV).

    If the Jewish nation has no future in God’s plan, as the supersessionists claim, then what is the future “fullness” of Israel that Paul mentions in verse 12? And when, exactly, will the nation be resurrected (“life from the dead”) and “accepted” by God (verse 15)? Paul can’t be talking about the Church in this passage because the Church has never died - and never will (John 11:26). The only reasonable answer is that Paul is referring to a yet-future resurrection and restoration of Am Israel (the “people of Israel,” a collective term for the nation), as prophesied in passages like Ezekiel 37:1-14. It doesn’t mean they will automatically be saved simply because they are Jewish; rather, it means that the majority of Jewish people who are living at that time will recognize Yeshua of Nazareth as their Messiah and receive Him as Savior (Zechariah 12:10, Romans 11:26).

    They will be saved in the same way believers from all ages and generations have been saved; that is, they will be saved by grace, through faith (Eph. 2:8-10). The problem with saying that God rejected His people Israel is that the term “rejection” implies permanence and finality. Paul’s forceful statements in Romans 11 probably indicate that people were claiming, even in his day, that God had “cast away” His people Israel (v. 1). They were saying that Israel had “stumbled’ and “fallen” from her former position (vv. 11-12). Paul rejected any such notion (“Certainly not!” in verses 1 and 11). Then he goes on to say that even if we insist on saying that they were rejected, then we are forced to the conclusion that the rejection is only temporary. Even if we insist on saying that they did stumble and fall, then it must also be said that their fall brought salvation to the rest of the world (Gentiles) - and Israel’s fall, too, is only temporary because they are destined to be restored one day to a position of “fullness” (v. 12).

    The “fullness of the Gentiles” (Rom. 11:25) refers to the time when the full number of non-Jewish believers has been added to the ranks of the Church and the last person has been saved. Likewise, the “fullness” of the Jewish people (v. 12) refers to the time when “all Israel shall be saved” (v. 26). As we saw earlier, that means the Jewish people en masse will recognize and receive their Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth. There may be some dissenters - and their probably will be - but the Holy Spirit of God will do a powerful work among the Jewish people, and multitudes of them - the vast majority of them - will come to faith in the Messiah of Israel, Jesus of Nazareth.

    The truth is that God is no more finished with Israel than He is finished with the Gentiles. Neither one has been replaced by the other; and God’s plan for both remains intact, in spite of their failures. This is really the crux of the issue. Replacement Theology says that Israel was rejected by God and that the rejection was permanent and irrevocable; however, we say that God’s calling on Israel was permanent and irrevocable, in spite of her many sins and shortcomings (Romans 11:29)

    What Did the Apostles Believe About the Millennium?

    Another problem for supersessionism and amillennialism is that these views are not in harmony with the teachings of the Apostles and the Early Church. Almost without exception, Church historians agree that chiliasm, an early form of premillennialism, was the position of the Early (Jewish) Church. In his classic, encyclopedic History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff wrote, “The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene Age [A.D. 100-325] is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, … a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius …” (Scribner, 1884; Vol. 2, p. 614).

    What’s interesting about this admission is that it comes from someone who was neither evangelical nor premillennial. Schaff, in fact, was himself an ardent supersessionist! He wrote, “The carnal Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament is a diabolical perversion. The Christians, and not the Jews, are the true Israel of God and the righteous owners of the Old Testament Scriptures” (Ibid., Sec. 167, “Barnabas”). Yet as a student of history and as a scholar, he had to acknowledge that chiliasm was “prominent” in the Early Church, even though he himself despised it.

    It should be noted that Papias (who believed in a future, earthly Kingdom) was a disciple of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of the Apostle John who actually penned the passages in the Book of Revelation about the Millennial Kingdom. Premillennialism, then, may be the only eschatological system with an unbroken link directly to the author of the Apocalypse. This means that amillennialism represents a departure from what the Early Church believed. Augustine (354-430), author of City of God, a 22-volume defense of his theological views, proposed ideas similar to what we know as amillennialism (Books 15 to 19). However, even Augustine started out as a premillennialist! It wasn’t until later in his life that he decided that the prophecies about (and promises to) Israel should be interpreted symbolically and applied to the Church, rather than being interpreted literally and applied to Israel.

    The Sticking Point: Messiah’s Millennial Monarchy

    Evangelicals have been busy for years trying to hammer out an understanding between premillennial dispensationalists and adherents of Reformed/Covenant Theology. Dispensationalists who have been actively pursuing this agenda (and making concessions to the opposing view) are known as “progressive dispensationalists.” The one point, however, that continues to be a fly in the ointment of reconciliation is the Millennial Kingdom. Even Covenant theologians who allow for an end-time mass conversion of the Jewish people still have difficulty accepting Israel’s role in a future, literal Kingdom on the Earth. This shows just how diverse amillennialism and premillennialism are and how difficult it is to bridge the gap between them without seriously compromising one or the other.

    Why Is This Error Dangerous?

    Is Replacement Theology really worth arguing about? Or is this discussion much ado about nothing? One reason it’s important to call attention to questionable theology, no matter how deeply entrenched it may be in traditional Christianity is that sooner or later, bad theology always leads to bad practice - and in this case, it already has! Replacement Theology has provided the basis for all sorts of mischief, persecution, and atrocities against the Jewish people throughout Christian history.

    For example, Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation, was a supersessionist. Near the end of his life, he said that synagogues and Jewish schools should be burned to the ground, Jewish people run out of their homes, their prayer books and Talmudic writings burned, and the rabbis forbidden to preach or teach on penalty of death (“On the Jews and Their Lies,” Trans. Martin H. Bertram, in Luther’s Works [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971], pp. 268-271). Luther also declared that Jewish people in Germany should be confined to their own homes and neighborhoods - a plan the Nazis implemented literally when they quarantined Jewish families in ghettos in Poland and other places before shipping them to the death camps for extermination. One historian writes: It is difficult to understand the behavior of most German Protestants in the first Nazi years unless one is aware of two things: their history and the influence of Martin Luther. The great founder of Protestantism was both a passionate anti-Semite and a ferocious believer in absolute obedience to political authority. He wanted Germany rid of the Jews. Luther’s advice was literally followed four centuries later by Hitler, Goering, and Himmler (William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich [New York: Simon & Shuster, 1960], p. 236).

    No one is suggesting that anyone who believes in Replacement Theology is an anti-Semite or would agree with Luther’s statements. That would be an unfair characterization - and it certainly is not the case. It is important, nevertheless, to examine the implications and ramifications of any position, including Replacement Theology: and it is an incontestable fact that ideas similar to those of Replacement Theology have inspired some horrible atrocities against the Jewish people.

    We’re Making Progress!

    As we observed earlier, the term “Replacement Theology” is relatively new, and is generally avoided by adherents of supersessionism. As far as they are concerned, they’re simply espousing traditional theology - and in a sense, they are! Supersessionist ideas have been widely accepted in mainstream Christianity since the third century or so, as mainstream Christianity was gradually losing its original Jewish character. The Gentile powers-that-be in early institutional (Eastern and Western) Christianity wanted to distance themselves from Christianity’s Jewish origins. And they did!

    The good new is that slowly but surely we’re making progress in our battle against Replacement Theology. Everywhere we go, all over the world, (even Arab countries!), we find believers who acknowledge Israel’s unique and ongoing place in God’s plan of the ages, and who are anxiously awaiting that Golden Age when, for the first time, “they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the Earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9).

    Most Baptists today are premillennial (except for the most liberal Baptist denominations), as are many Bible churches, particularly those associated with IFCA (Independent Fundamental Churches of America) International and similar groups of independent churches. There are even premillennial Presbyterians! Our ranks are growing with every day that passes. Much of the opposition comes from the more liberal, mainline denominations and their seminaries. And it’s not merely coincidental that these are the same churches and institutions that are aligned with the anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian World and National Councils of Churches.

    If you’d like to know if your church leaders believe in Replacement Theology, ask them! If they are not familiar with the term, be patient because it’s entirely possible that they have never heard it before, even if they attended seminary. Also, it’s not likely that they’ve ever knowingly aligned themselves with any view that’s anti-Semitic, anti-Judaic or anti-Israel. This may all be new to them! Ask them, very humbly and sincerely, if they believe that God rejected Israel when Israel rejected His Son in the first century and that as a result, He has no future plan or purpose for the Jewish nation. They may reply that yes, of course, Jewish people can be saved and join the Church - and to them, that means God has a plan for the Jewish people. However, that’s not what we’re asking. We want to know if they believe that God is no longer dealing with the Jewish nation - and don’t be surprised if the answer, ultimately, is in the affirmative. After all, as we saw earlier, this has been the predominant view of mainstream Christianity for centuries - roughly since the time of Augustine, in fact. Sadly, this view has become normative in much of the Church, including many denominations and their seminaries.

    Let’s not be afraid to challenge theological tradition when it’s wrong. It’s our responsibility to proclaim and defend the premillennial hope of the Church - and the nation of Israel - in these days of widespread error and apostasy. We should encourage our premillennial Bible colleges and seminaries to take a stand on Replacement Theology and challenge them to produce graduates who are knowledgeable about the historical and theological issues Replacement Theology encompasses. There’s a lot we can do, and we should be doing all we can!

    http://shema.com/Combating Replacement Theology/crt-004.php

  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Absolutely not.

    The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
    It is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13.
    It is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

    On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel".
    Peter knew he was speaking to Israelites.
    In Romans 11:1 Paul reveals that he is an Israelite.
    When the Church first began almost all of its members were, you guessed it... Israelites.

    Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of Israel, as revealed in Matthew 1:1.

    The New Covenant is based on Grace, instead of race.

    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  9. Matthew-59

    Matthew-59 Space Invader Supporter

    Oh I agree with that. Absolutely. Well, except I don't believe in any big bang theory of evolution. Although, there will be a big bang in the future...
    "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." ~ 2 Peter 3:10

    I was referring to what you said about those still on earth seeing the rapture from the ground....
    I don't believe the people left behind will see anything, except that we Christians have disappeared.
  10. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter


    LOL! "Absolutely not," According to who or what? And how many Israelites do you think make up the Church of today?


    We come now to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is ,we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath. Scripturally we find the Church is not Israel the nation but a separate entity under an entirely new covenant. Israel is called the wife of Jehovah, while the Church is called the bride of Christ, showing distinctions in how God relates to each. The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. It was Jacob who’s name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons that became that nation.

    Many transfer the promises and the covenants to Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look it up you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported in their context.

    Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It Means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob.

    The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church "As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon "the Israel of God." In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizers were teaching that the law was needed also. Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, " for they are not all Israel who are of Israel." (Rom.9:6). There is also "Israel" after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God makeing a new entity.

    In the N.T we have three terms used alongside each other, Israel, Gentiles and the Church. The Church consists of both believing Gentiles and Jews while Israel as a nation is in unbelief as are the Gentiles. The Church and Israel are two distinct groups and God has a different program for each. Both are brought in make up the body of Christ. The name Israel is used 20 times and the church 19 times in the book of Acts, both are kept distinct While there is no difference in salvation for both, Gods plans are different for each. In the book of Acts Israel and the church exist alongside each other, nowhere is the church called the new or spiritual Israel.There are certain areas the differences of Jew and gentile are erased but in all areas.Such as we becoming one in Christ all the same way 1 Cor.12:13 , according to the NT a Jew is one that is not only outwardly by the flesh but inwardly,this obviously can't be for a gentile so for a gentile. there is no such thing as a spiritual Jew from the inside only, but there is such a thing as spiritual gentiles.

    If you claim to be Israel then you were cut off according to Romans.11. And where the natural branch once was, God grafted in unnatural ones the Gentiles. It doesn't get any clearer. The teaching of God abandoning Israel the nation or replaced by the Church did quite well for almost 1,500 hundred years until he actually gave them back their land AND STARTED TO REGATHER THEM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD. God said in Neh. 1:8 if you are unfaithful I will scatter you.' but he also said...

    Jer.30:18, 31:8 "Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth."

    Isa.43:5 I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...

    It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God has a differnt plan for both.

    Source: Let Us Reason

  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    One of the false narratives of those promoting the Two People of God doctrine is the claim that the Church today is a "Gentile Church".

    Those making the charge of "Replacement Theology" often make a statement similar to the following.

    "The Gentile Church has not replaced Israel".

    The short video below proves this statement is built upon a false narrative.

    The Church as a whole has never been a Gentile Church.
    It began on Pentecost with a Church made up almost entirely of Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later, mainly through the ministry of the Apostle Paul. (Galatians 1:14-18)

    I have had Christians in my home for Bible study, who were from Jewish backgrounds.

    The New Covenant is about Grace, instead of race. (Galatians 3:16-29, 1 Timothy 1:4)
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter



    Please explain why God decreed Israel to go through the tribulation, as recorded in Jacob's Trouble, in Jer.30:7; Dan.9:27;Zech.12 and 14 while the Church is caught up and in heaven for the marriage to he Lamb/Jesus, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-7; 2 Thess.2:t3, 7-8; Rev.19:7-8 and 14!

    Col.1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy."

    Jn.15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    Jn.15:1 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."

    Your claim that the Church never was gentile, is dead wrong. Gentiles began coming into the Church as depicted through every epistle in the Bible, by Paul It is predominantly gentile today, over the Jewish believers!.

    The church that started at Pentecost is not symbolically or spiritually called Israel, according to the Scriptures. Neither has the church replaced Israel so that it will receive the promises that God gave to Israel. There are some verses that could be twisted, by those lacking spiritual discernment or liberals, making it look like the name Israel means the church. Israel is never replaced by the church! Some “Christians”, like those at “Christ at the Checkpoint” conferences, falsely believe that the church has taken the place of Israel so that God can use them to solve the Israeli and Palestinian conflict! They take Scriptures out of context to prove their point and throw Old Testament prophesies in the fire, like Jehoiakim, king of Judah did, Jeremiah 36.

    Romans 9:6-8 “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

    Here, Paul may be addressing those who thought they were entitled to the Promised Land, no matter what they believed. This is not addressing the church as Israel. God did not count those Jews who rejected Him as the true Israel. To be entitled to the Promised Land as a Jew in the Messiah’s Kingdom, the individual Jew has to believe on Jesus, just as Abraham and Isaac did. Even though they did not know Jesus by name at that time, they trusted that God would send a Saviour, as He promised! The true Israelite must be born in the flesh, and in their spirit, by the Spirit of God. True Israel is only the saved Jewish remnant!

    Romans 11:2-5 “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”
    God is all knowing. He will not force Jews to be saved, but He did know that there would be a remnant who would freely accept Him as their Saviour. These are real Jews, not the church replacing Israel! Elias (Elijah) had a pity party, and God told Him that there were still other Jews serving Him. The people who Elijah was told about were Jews according to the flesh, just like those being saved in Paul’s time. Paul said that even during his time there was still a remnant of Israel who was being saved. This Scripture is evidence that God will continue to have a remnant of Jews to receive the promises made to Abraham!

    Romans 11:25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
    The big-brained liberals who teaches Replacement Theology says that Romans 11 is talking about the church when it says Israel. So, am I to believe Israel, “the church” had to be blinded so that the Gentiles could be saved? That would not make any sense to a school boy. No! Israel is Israel and the church is the church! When God completes His goal to win many Gentiles, He will open the eyes of the Jews once again. Many liberal “Christians” allow their brains to puff up with pride. They think that they have replaced Israel. But, God is not through with Israel.He still needs to add to the Jewish remnant, who will see the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham.

    Galatians 6:16 “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”
    This simply means that God owns Israel, and they certainly do need peace and mercy. God formed Israel in the beginning, and He has molded and refined Israel ever since.

    If you read the book of Acts, you will find that both the words Israel and church appear many times. They are never interchangeable. They are two separate things. The church will never replace Israel and receive the Promised Land as an inheritance. The church is not promised by God to even share the Promised Land with the Jews. The church is not Israel, and they have no guarantee to inherit the land that God promised Israel. But, God uses the church to glean the Jewish remnant from the fields of the world. In the future, the church will come with Jesus when He carries out God’s final solution for the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. Meanwhile, the church can help God with the future final solution by winning Jews to Jesus, praying for them, supporting them financially, and by standing up for them instead of against them!

    HIBM Editorial by Avi Goldstein * The Church Is Not Spiritual Israel! – Dr. K. Daniel Fried, Editor in Chief – copyright © 2015 hopeofisrael.net

  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Because God sent them into captivity in Babylon during that time, over 2,000 years ago.

    Read all of Jeremiah 30:1-10, and quit ripping verse 7 out of its historical context in order to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

    Israel and the Church cannot be separated in Acts chapter 2 or in Hebrews 8:6-13, no matter how much you try it.

    For some strange reason your article above skipped Romans 11:1.
    I wonder why?

  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter


    The subject pertains to prophecy, not to history you are attempting to remake it into. And you can cut out your assumptions I am falsifying or leaving things out of what I post that doesn't fit the heresies you keep promoting!

    For your edification, review the following pertaining to Israel going through the tribulation, as Jacob's Trouble relates in Jer.30:7, whether you accept it or not:

    25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven. In the middle of the ‘seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templej he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

    The above was amplified by Jesus in His Olivet Discourse in t.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21!

    The above decree by God that Israel will go through the tribulation is in verse 27, confirming Jacob's Trouble, in Jer.30:7! While the Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. Followed by Jesus second coming to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, following Him in His armies from heaven, in verse 14. Confirming Zech.14:4-5.

    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    Nice story, again...

    You have ripped Jeremiah 30:7 out of its historical context during the Babylonian captivity and have converted the New Covenant confirmed by Christ at Calvary in Daniel 9:27, into a treaty broken by an antichrist not in Daniel chapter 9, by adding a manmade "gap" of time not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

    Then you have claimed that the "everlasting" New Covenant found in Hebrews 13:20 comes to an end 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ, even though the Sinai Covenant is now "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

    Then you continue to claim that the word "Israel" found in Acts chapter 2 and Hebrews 8:6-13 has nothing to do with the New Covenant Church...

    Who Confirmed The Covenant?
    James Lloyd

  17. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter


    The Scriptural eschatology as previously posted in #15 refute you, Not have I done a single thing to negate the New Covenant you are buried in, that Israel rejected, which Jesus Church is built on. Your attempt to interpret eschatology is laced with misconception and attempts to remake it into what you want it it to say, instead of accepting what it does say!

  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    If all of Israel rejected the New Covenant, then what happened on the Day of Pentecost?

    Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 
    Act 2:15  For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 
    Act 2:16  But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 
    Act 2:22  "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 
    Act 2:23  Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 
    Act 2:24  whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 
    Act 2:29  "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 
    Act 2:30  Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 
    Act 2:31  he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 
    Act 2:32  This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 
    Act 2:33  Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 
    Act 2:34  "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, 
    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 
    Act 2:37  Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 
    Act 2:38  Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 
    Act 2:39  For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 
    Act 2:40  And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 
    Act 2:41  Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 

    The only way you can make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work is by ignoring the fact that Peter addressed the crowd as Israelites on the Day of Pentecost and on that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

  19. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    The angels are not gathering a raptured church from Heaven, where God dwells!

    Jer. 49: 36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

    The events of this passage are on this earth.

    Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

    The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth.

    Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

    The events of this passage are on the earth.

    Zech 2: 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.

    The events of this passage are on the earth

    In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells.

    Likewise the passage in Matthew does not describe a roundup of resurrected believers from heaven (where God dwells).

    Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Deuteronomy 30:3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

    4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

    5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter


    You need to understand all of the Israelites Peter brought to the Lord in Acts 2, became members of the CHURCH! They did not somehow become members of Israel, or become Jews! The Church of Jesus Christ IS NOT Israel! Show me anywhere in Scripture you try proving that heresy!

    It was Israel who rejected Jesus as their Messiah for which God let their temple and Jerusalem be destroyed by Titus and the Roman army. They are still in denial, which is also a refusal to accept the New Covenant. As a result, God has decreed them to go through the tribulation, before finally recognizing Jesus as their Messiah, at His second coming, as recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5.

    The gentiles, as well as believing Jews, began accepting the New Covenant of Grace, through Jesus Christ, at Pentecost, at its inception, formulating the Church. Capiche?!

    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017