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The historicity of the pre-trib rapture of the Church has always come directly from the Scriptures.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4

    Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 Active Member

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    If only souls go to heaven , where did Enoch and Elijah go ?
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The Bible says they went to heaven. But we know from Paul's teachings, that there are several levels of heaven. We are not told which heaven they went to, however, they were special cases and their example in no way proves a general rapture of the Church.
    You are just grasping at straws, to have to use them as a rapture proof.
     
  3. Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4

    Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 Active Member

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    1st heaven is when you look outside of window
    2nd heaven is universe
    3rd heaven is where God is

    If there is no rapture then why there is reward for waiting for rapture ?

    Anyways , there is funny rapture joke you might be interested .
    Skip to 16:18
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Dr. Chuck Missler was an essential part of my conversion to Christ.
    At one time I supported his ministry and received his newsletter.


    However, his "joke" ignores the fact that our Brothers and Sisters around the world are now being murdered for our faith.

    God never promised to preserve our bodies on this side of the Second Coming.
    He saved our souls, not our flesh bodies.


    All of the Apostles, but John, were murdered for our faith.

    The comment about the "beaten bride" does not face reality.
    It is often used by Dispensationalists in an attempt to promote the pretrib doctrine.


    Modern Dispensational Theology only works by ignoring the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


    Jer_31:31  "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

    Mat_26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Mar_14:24  And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

    Luk_22:20  Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

    1Co_11:25  In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

    2Co_3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    Heb_8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

    Heb_8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Heb_9:15  And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Heb_12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

    .
     
  5. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I gave you mine many times over. Either show by the Scriptures any of it is Scripturally false, or the views you hold to are the ones that are.

    The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - a deeper walk...

    The last of the four posts in the above link is a listings of highly esteemed men of God, from every walk of Christian teachings, who fully endorse the three posts above them, of the pre-trin rapture of the Church.


    Quasar92
     
  6. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Quasar 92 from post #118

    The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27,

    You have offered no scriptural support for this statement only your declaration it is true. This is your opinion and is noted as such.

    when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

    Where is the Day of the Lord or the Day of Christ or any other variations of the phrase mentioned in Daniel? More opinion and commentary!

    In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come,

    You have offered no scriptural support for this statement only your declaration it is true. This is commentary not scriptural fact.

    until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

    Can you show us a 7 year tribulation in the book of Revelation?

    Quasae 92 said in post #135

    I referred you to my post #118 once before, to answer your questions. Where you will find under the sub-headings for 2 Thess.2:1-8 and its translation history, the precise timing of the rapture of the Church, followed immediately by the man of lawlessness, the Antichrist. Who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, a seven year week. Which is divided with the first 3.5 years of world peace, followed by the Great Tribulation in the final 3.5 years, which is the Day of the Lord.

    Now you declare the day of the Lord is 3.5 years in post #118 you said it was seven years. Which is it? Show us one verse to support either! Yes I see your division ,but you cannot support either as being the “day of the Lord”.

    [I have never used the term, "Day of Christ," in this context, which the KJV does in 2 Thess.2:2] The Day of Christ is an entirely different event, when He comes for His Church, immediately preceding the tribulation, in 1 Thess.4:16-17.

    You included day of Christ in your list of 86, 1 Corinthians 1:8, Philippians 1:6. If it is a different event why include it in your list? Christ is the Lord; there is no difference in the day of Christ and the day of the Lord.

    See the following where you will find a listings of 86 verses pertaining to the Day of the Lord, beside Dan.9:27and Mt.24:15 and 21, Mk.13 and Lk.21.

    The entire relevant portion of your post #118 is above and your last non-answer in post #135 as well. You have written much but the context of my question is in 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-3. I didn’t ask you for the precise timing of the rapture I ask you 3 yes or no questions from the passage below. They do not require commentary we can get to that later.


    Repost of #123:


    To Quasar92. 2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)


    1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Quasar92 simple question is the coming of our Lord and our gathering on the same day? Yes or no?


    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Is the day of Christ the same day as the day in verse one? Yes or no?


    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Is "that day" the same day as the days in verses 1& 2? Yes or no? I really don't care what Mr. Ice has to say he is not on this forum. What do you say? Just 3 yes or no's will suffice.


     
  7. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  8. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The post-trib view was/is that of the RCC who held any other teachings pertaining to the Scripturally based teachings of Jesus Millennial reign on earth and the pre-trib rapture of the Church hostage, for more than 1,600 years, denying them, because of their teachings of Amillennialism, brought to the Church by Augustine.!

    Because post-trib was first, has no bearing whatever on which is the proper and correct teachings, clearly revealed by the Scriptures, it is the pre-trib position

    The Scriptures soundly refute it. For example: Jesus returns for His Church before the tribulation begins, in 1 Thess.4:16, and meets them in the sky, in verse 17; 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. From where He takes them to the Father in heaven in Jn.14:2-3 and 28. They are in heaven for the marriage, the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. From where Jesus will return to the earth in His second coming, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, following Him in His armies from heaven, in verse 14. There is no way the post-trib view fits anywhere in the Bible.


    Quasar92
     
  9. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For your edification, the following is what I posted in #118 you are all pushed out of shape about!

    >>>The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

    In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.<<<

    The Day of the Lord is precisely what Dan.9:27 is and what Paul was referring to in 2 Thess.2:2-3. The very same Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15 and in Mk,12:14. As a teacher of the Bible, I am qualified to allude to factors in eschatology not either seen nor understood by the lay believer.

    Your above rhetoric is meaningless opinion you can never rove by the Scriptures what I have posted is false! I have a listings of many men of God, from every walk of Christian teaching who fully endorse what I have posted above, which I will be more than happy to add to this post if it poses any problems for you.


    Quasar92
     
  10. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    This my friend the the problem in this debate. You are about 1/2 inch from achieving cult status. If you do not see what is wrong with the above statement I fully understand why you cannot debate the text of scripture on the merits.
     
  11. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Paul thought himself to be a qualified teacher as well but he had to be retrained. Acts 22:1-21
     
  12. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

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    Quasar said in Post #149

    For your edification, the following is what I posted in #118 you are all pushed out of shape about!

    >>>The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.



    In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.<<<

    Yep that’s what you wrote and I believe I quoted you accurately and challenged your conclusions with no response.

    The Day of the Lord is precisely what Dan.9:27 is and what Paul was referring to in 2 Thess.2:2-3. The very same Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15 and in Mk,12:14. As a teacher of the Bible, I am qualified to allude to factors in eschatology not either seen nor understood by the lay believer.

    Neither I nor anyone else here are interested in your allusions. Show us something from the text that’s supports your allusion that Daniel 9:27 is referring to a 7 year day of the Lord with a resurrection at the beginning of it. I believe the Mark reference you meant was 13 not 12.

    Your above rhetoric is meaningless opinion you can never rove by the Scriptures what I have posted is false! I have a listings of many men of God, from every walk of Christian teaching who fully endorse what I have posted above, which I will be more than happy to add to this post if it poses any problems for you.

    We have seen your list and heard your perceived qualifications and both are worthless if you cannot answer 3 simple yes or no questions.
     
  13. Hal A Peno

    Hal A Peno Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  14. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

    Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.

    IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....
    And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

    BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

    So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

    Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

    The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

    There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.
    I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!

    KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
    Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

    OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
    Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

    Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

    NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
    Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23
    Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

    OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
    For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

    Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16
    Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

    Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.

    NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
    Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
    At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

    What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, Luke 21:34-36
    Ref: Keith Hunt
     
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