The historicity of the pre-trib rapture of the Church has always come directly from the Scriptures.

Quasar92

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The Two Peoples of God doctrine, found above, is at least partially responsible for the pitiful effort the modern Church has put into taking the Gospel to the Jewish people.

The "suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31, and the timeline of Daniel 9 prove that the baby born in a manger is the New Covenant Messiah foretold in the Hebrew scriptures.

The short video below proves that your statement above is wrong.
Modern Jews can and are recognizing Jesus as their Messiah, at the present time.





Everyone whoever believed in Jesus Christ, belong to His Body, the Church! Whether Israeli/Jew or Gentile, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13. None of them belong to non-believing Israel! The only division between the two of them, is that the Church consist 100% believers, while Israel consisys of 100% non-believers.

2 Tim.4:3 "For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires."


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The bove is n example of jumping to false conclisions of what I have posted and what ws meant. You labor under false pretenses.


I don’t think so.


In 2 Cor.5:6-8, is clearly a spiritual RAISING of the believer's spirit/soul, at the time of His death, as I have ALWYS implied. Furthermore, I also believe, they receive a glorified spiritual body at that time,


Except for the fact Jesus and Paul disagree with you on the timing. Paul said it happens after The coming of Christ just before those that are alive and remain are changed, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Jesus said 4 times in John 6 it would be at “the last day”. That is not the last day of a believers life it is that last day at His coming as stated elsewhere.


according to 1 Cor.5:44, in the very same way those who are left on earth alive at His coming, in 1Thess.4:14-17, will be, when they are translated to meet Jesus in the Sky,


Not one word of this passage says we will be resurrected at death this whole chapter is about “the resurrection” of the dead not multiple resurrections at the death of different believers. Nothing in verse 44 gives us the timing that is found in verse 23, 52, John 6, 1 Thessalonians 4, at His coming.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It appears to me that you build your whole case on a misinterpretation of “everyman in his own order” saying every man’s order is when he dies and ignore what Jesus said in John 6 and what Paul said I 1 Thessalonians 4. You even ignor what Paul said in verse 52 the dead are raised at the last trump.

Your interpretation of this verse as I understand it tells us, everyman in Christ is raised at death (his own order) then the verse says Christ is the first fruits, and then we are told that we that are Christ’s at His coming. Why would Paul refer to the dead in Christ in the sentence first before mentioning Christ himself who was the first fruits?

IMHO a much more reasonable interpretation would be, the statement “every man in his own order” which is all to be resurrected from the dead including Christ who came, died in human flesh and was raised the first fruits being the first of every man in his own order and afterward at His coming is everyone else that belongs to Christ. The resurrection is a onetime event at the last day at His coming at the last trump not something spread over 2000 years. The order is laid out for us in verse 23 Christ first, after that everyone who is Christ’s at His coming.

from where He will take them all into heaven with Him, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3 and 28.

You only assume a trip to heaven in John 14:1-2 there is nothing in verse 28 to misconstrue as a trip to heaven.
 
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Jesus as told us in more than one place that God dwells in heaven, Starting with Mt.6:9-13.


That would be the “third heaven”. You have ignored the other two.


Your above is a nit icking aray of opinion that does not begin to negate thte teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church.


You mean my opinion back by scripture that you ignored. I can only assume that since you use this tactic so often you are unable to put together a scriptural backed response to many questions posed to you.


Nor hsave you explained how the elect got in heaven in.Mt.24:31,


That has been explained to you repeatedly by several people on this forum.


where they will be for the mrrige to the Lamb/Jesus, before returning with Him, when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Mt.24:30 and Rev.19:7-8 and 14, Confirming Zech.14>4-5.




Your post #21 did not address my post #19 or the scripture I gave to support it.

Is this what you call debate? I sure hope not. Ignore the points raised, deflect the issue with a question then move on assuming you are the final authority of truth. Is that taught in some Bible colleges?
 
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jgr

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More meaningless opinions coming from an empty wagon without a shred of Scriptural support to verify it.

The act of the matter is, there was only seven English translations of the Bible, in the 17th century, when the alteration by KJV scribes took place. From which the proof has been given to you many times over, what the intended and proper historical translation of 2 Thess.2:3 was, for 17 centuries, from a well qualified source.


Quasar92
Long before the first English translation:

2 Thess. 2:3 - in Dialogue of Justin
O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy,

2 Thess. 2:3 - in Victorinus Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John
Paul the apostle says: "Except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin shall appear, the son of perdition; and the adversary who exalted himself above all which is called God, or which is worshipped."
 
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Quasar92

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I don’t think so.





Except for the fact Jesus and Paul disagree with you on the timing. Paul said it happens after The coming of Christ just before those that are alive and remain are changed, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Jesus said 4 times in John 6 it would be at “the last day”. That is not the last day of a believers life it is that last day at His coming as stated elsewhere.





Not one word of this passage says we will be resurrected at death this whole chapter is about “the resurrection” of the dead not multiple resurrections at the death of different believers. Nothing in verse 44 gives us the timing that is found in verse 23, 52, John 6, 1 Thessalonians 4, at His coming.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It appears to me that you build your whole case on a misinterpretation of “everyman in his own order” saying every man’s order is when he dies and ignore what Jesus said in John 6 and what Paul said I 1 Thessalonians 4. You even ignor what Paul said in verse 52 the dead are raised at the last trump.

Your interpretation of this verse as I understand it tells us, everyman in Christ is raised at death (his own order) then the verse says Christ is the first fruits, and then we are told that we that are Christ’s at His coming. Why would Paul refer to the dead in Christ in the sentence first before mentioning Christ himself who was the first fruits?

IMHO a much more reasonable interpretation would be, the statement “every man in his own order” which is all to be resurrected from the dead including Christ who came, died in human flesh and was raised the first fruits being the first of every man in his own order and afterward at His coming is everyone else that belongs to Christ. The resurrection is a onetime event at the last day at His coming at the last trump not something spread over 2000 years. The order is laid out for us in verse 23 Christ first, after that everyone who is Christ’s at His coming.



You only assume a trip to heaven in John 14:1-2 there is nothing in verse 28 to misconstrue as a trip to heaven.


There is no disagreement between Jesus and Paul in any way, pertaining to end time events. You need to pay closer attention as to who each of them is addressing. Jesus ministry in His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.5:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven. Nor does my exegesis ad hermeneutics pertaining to the Scriptural documentation of the pre-trib raptue of the Church depend upom 2 Cor.5:6=8 and Ecc.12:7. Review the following Scriptural facts:

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


The chronological order of end time events:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed. All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel. From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation. The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

7. Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21. And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

8. The antichrist and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, and the armies of the ten horns [nations] are destroyed. Rev19:17-21. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold [Israel and His Church] and one Shepherd. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70 Weeks prophecy in Dan.9:27 will end.
9..Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the same 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:6, confirming Mt.6:9-13; Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47; Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16.

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

11. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of the one body of Christ, His Church, all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining , of those who had to go through the tribulation, recorded in Zech.13:8. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

12. Jesus 1,000 year kingdom will begin at this point, according to Rev.20:6, here on the earth, on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, confirming Acts 1:6; 2:29-30 and 15:16. At the same time the 1,000 years Satan will be in the Abyss, according to Rev.20:1-3. Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16 will then be fulfilled, when there will be one fold, Israel and the Church, with one Shepherd. When Jesus Millennial kingdom has ended, 1,000 years later, at the Great White Throne judgment, recorded in Rev.20:11-15. Satan will be released and go out to deceive the people and nations again in his last rebellion against God and gather a huge army who come against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. But God will send fire and sulfur down from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them all, and throwing Satan into the lake of fire, forever, in Rev.20:7-10.

13. The second resurrection takes place according to Rev.20:5, that consists of all those who will be saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus here on the earth, as well as the Godless and wicked, at the Great White Throne Judgment, set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgment, along with death itself, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, will be thrown into the lake of fire forever. Rev.20:11-15, and Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46 will be fulfilled.

14. The old heaven and earth will pass away, recorded in Rev.21:1 [Destroyed by fire according to 2 Pet.3:7] and God will provide an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem will descend from heaven, 1,500 miles long and as wide as it is long and as high as it is wide, Rev.21:1-16.

15. The rest of chapters 21 and 22 allude to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.


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Quasar92

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I don’t think so.





Except for the fact Jesus and Paul disagree with you on the timing. Paul said it happens after The coming of Christ just before those that are alive and remain are changed, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Jesus said 4 times in John 6 it would be at “the last day”. That is not the last day of a believers life it is that last day at His coming as stated elsewhere.





Not one word of this passage says we will be resurrected at death this whole chapter is about “the resurrection” of the dead not multiple resurrections at the death of different believers. Nothing in verse 44 gives us the timing that is found in verse 23, 52, John 6, 1 Thessalonians 4, at His coming.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It appears to me that you build your whole case on a misinterpretation of “everyman in his own order” saying every man’s order is when he dies and ignore what Jesus said in John 6 and what Paul said I 1 Thessalonians 4. You even ignor what Paul said in verse 52 the dead are raised at the last trump.

Your interpretation of this verse as I understand it tells us, everyman in Christ is raised at death (his own order) then the verse says Christ is the first fruits, and then we are told that we that are Christ’s at His coming. Why would Paul refer to the dead in Christ in the sentence first before mentioning Christ himself who was the first fruits?

IMHO a much more reasonable interpretation would be, the statement “every man in his own order” which is all to be resurrected from the dead including Christ who came, died in human flesh and was raised the first fruits being the first of every man in his own order and afterward at His coming is everyone else that belongs to Christ. The resurrection is a onetime event at the last day at His coming at the last trump not something spread over 2000 years. The order is laid out for us in verse 23 Christ first, after that everyone who is Christ’s at His coming.



You only assume a trip to heaven in John 14:1-2 there is nothing in verse 28 to misconstrue as a trip to heaven.


First of all let me apologize for not resonding to all o your posts. My priorities are different than yours, as a single, independently living 94 year old, I respond to others on this site addition to yours, when and as my time permits. In addition, I was unaware of any "debate" set up between us. As such, the Scriptures proving the pre-trib rapture of the Church is the bottom line with no options. The following clearly reveals Jesus coming for His Church ad taking it where He is, to our Father in heaven.

Jn.14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in Goda ; believe also in me.2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.4You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jn.14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Heb.10:12 "But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,"

A review of John 16 will reveal no less than thee verses of Jesus referring to His returning to the Father.


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BABerean2

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Jesus ministry in His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.5:24 and in 10:5-6.

To Israel first, but not only to Israel...

Joh 10:15  As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 
Joh 10:16  And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. 


Jesus and the Woman of Samaria


Joh 4:1  Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 

Joh 4:2  (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 

Joh 4:3  He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. 

Joh 4:4  But He needed to go through Samaria. 

Joh 4:5  So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 

Joh 4:6  Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour. 

Joh 4:7  A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink." 

Joh 4:8  For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 

Joh 4:9  Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. 

Joh 4:10  Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." 

Joh 4:11  The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 

Joh 4:12  Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?" 

Joh 4:13  Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 

Joh 4:14  but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." 

Joh 4:15  The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw." 

Joh 4:16  Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here." 

Joh 4:17  The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You have well said, 'I have no husband,' 

Joh 4:18  for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly." 

Joh 4:19  The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 

Joh 4:20  Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship." 

Joh 4:21  Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 

Joh 4:22  You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 

Joh 4:23  But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 

Joh 4:24  God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." 

Joh 4:25  The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." 

Joh 4:26  Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." 

Joh 4:27  And at this point His disciples came, and they marveled that He talked with a woman; yet no one said, "What do You seek?" or, "Why are You talking with her?" 

Joh 4:28  The woman then left her waterpot, went her way into the city, and said to the men, 

Joh 4:29  "Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?" 



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Quasar92

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To Israel first, but not only to Israel...

Joh 10:15  As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 
Joh 10:16  And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. 


Jesus and the Woman of Samaria


Joh 4:1  Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 


Joh 4:2  (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 

Joh 4:3  He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. 

Joh 4:4  But He needed to go through Samaria. 

Joh 4:5  So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 

Joh 4:6  Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour. 

Joh 4:7  A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink." 

Joh 4:8  For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 


Joh 4:9  Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. 

Joh 4:10  Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." 

Joh 4:11  The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 


Joh 4:12  Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?" 

Joh 4:13  Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 

Joh 4:14  but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." 

Joh 4:15  The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw." 


Joh 4:16  Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here." 

Joh 4:17  The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You have well said, 'I have no husband,' 

Joh 4:18  for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly." 

Joh 4:19  The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 


Joh 4:20  Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship." 

Joh 4:21  Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 

Joh 4:22  You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 

Joh 4:23  But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 

Joh 4:24  God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." 

Joh 4:25  The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." 


Joh 4:26  Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." 

Joh 4:27  And at this point His disciples came, and they marveled that He talked with a woman; yet no one said, "What do You seek?" or, "Why are You talking with her?" 


Joh 4:28  The woman then left her waterpot, went her way into the city, and said to the men, 

Joh 4:29  "Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?" 



.


Another off subject post. Please tell me what you are trying tp prove with your above oracle? Review the following for the proer exegesis of Jn.10:16:

John 10:16 16 "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen [Israel]. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice[Church], and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. [Fulfilled in the following: Acts1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16 and Rev.20:6]. [Parenthetics mine]


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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The only division between the two of them, is that the Church consist 100% believers, while Israel consisys of 100% non-believers.

2 Tim.4:3 "For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires."


Quasar92

Mat 26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 


Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 
Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 
Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 
Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 
Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 
Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 



Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 




Tit_1:14  Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.



.
 
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Mat 26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 


Heb 8:6  But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 
Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 
Heb 8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— 
Heb 8:9  NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 
Heb 8:10  FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 
Heb 8:11  NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 
Heb 8:12  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 
Heb 8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 



Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 




Tit_1:14  Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.



.


FYI, every Israeli who ever received Jesus as their Messiah, along with the manifold number of Gentiles, ALL BELONG TO THE CHURCH. Which DID NOT exist until Pentecost! The Church IS NOT Israel. The nation of Israel, measured in millions of people, REJECTED Jesus as their Messiah. You need to do some research and study from your denial of that fact! Israel will not recognize Jesus s their Messiah, until His second coming, near the end of the tribulation, as documented in Zech.2:10 and 14:4-5!


Quasar92
 
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First of all, have you ever wondered how the elect, Jesus angels gather from one end of the heavens to the other got there at Jesus second coming to the earth, on Mt.24:31? We know the elect they gather from the four winds refer to Israel. So how did those elec get into heaven?

Beginning with Jn.14:2-4 and 28:"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

A look at 1 Thes.4:13-17:

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below. Jerome translated the Greek "apostasia," to the Latin "discessio" in vs 3, which means "departure" also.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:

In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," the rapture of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

Notice where you find the raptured Church returning with Jesus from the marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, in His second coming in ve.14, confirming Zech,14:4-5; Jude 14.

Also notice how Jesus angels are gathering His elect from the four winds [Israel] and from the one end of the heavens to the other [Church], according to Mt.24:31. When they are seen returning with Him, from their marriage in heaven in Rev.19: 7-8 and 14.


Quasar92
And that people, is why Jesus said there's gonna be a great apostasy.
(Apostasy=people turning away)
There's gonna be no rapture, you will go through tribulations. Keep in good cheer because Christ overcame all.
 
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Hal A Peno

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Quasar92 said:
First of all, have you ever wondered how the elect, Jesus angels gather from one end of the heavens to the other got there at Jesus second coming to the earth, on Mt.24:31? We know the elect they gather from the four winds refer to Israel. So how did those elec get into heaven?

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The word /elect/ never refers to Israel in the New testament. In every instance it refers to either Christians, Christ, or angels.

The word elect is 'eklektos' which means...

1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by
God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a)
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the
Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The word elect, chosen-'eklektos,' is used in the following verses in the NT where it always refers to Christians... whether Jew or gentile!

Here are a few examples,

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Check also...

Matthew 20:16, John 13:18, 15:16, Acts 15:22, 15:25, Romans 8:33, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 1:27-28, Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 3:12, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, Revelation 17:14.

If God wanted the elect of Mathew 24 to mean Jews, He would have used a different Greek word. Probably this one...

1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from
1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.
 
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BABerean2

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Israel will not recognize Jesus s their Messiah, until His second coming, near the end of the tribulation, as documented in Zech.2:10 and 14:4-5!


Quasar92

What you have claimed above stands in direct opposition to the words of Christ in the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25.

There will be no Second chances at His Second Coming.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

Mat 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 

Mat 25:2  And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 

Mat 25:3  They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 

Mat 25:4  But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 

Mat 25:5  While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 

Mat 25:6  And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 

Mat 25:7  Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 

Mat 25:8  And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 

Mat 25:9  But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 

Mat 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 

Mat 25:11  Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 

Mat 25:12  But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 

Mat 25:13  Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. 



Based on Acts chapter 2, the Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost and about 3,000 Israelites mourned for the One they had pierced, just a few weeks earlier.
This was the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.


You are attempting to ignore the words of Jesus in Matthew chapter 25 in order to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

All false systems of interpretation are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

.
 
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Quasar92

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What you have claimed above stands in direct opposition to the words of Christ in the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25.

There will be no Second chances at His Second Coming.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

Mat 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 

Mat 25:2  And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 

Mat 25:3  They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 

Mat 25:4  But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 

Mat 25:5  While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 

Mat 25:6  And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 

Mat 25:7  Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 

Mat 25:8  And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 

Mat 25:9  But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 

Mat 25:10  And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 

Mat 25:11  Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 

Mat 25:12  But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 

Mat 25:13  Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. 



Based on Acts chapter 2, the Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost and about 3,000 Israelites mourned for the One they had pierced, just a few weeks earlier.
This was the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.


You are attempting to ignore the words of Jesus in Matthew chapter 25 in order to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

All false systems of interpretation are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

.


Your claim that my interpretation is in opposition to that of Jesus and is false, is typical of those who try to interpret Scripture by allegorically spiritualizing it, or making past history out of prophecy. As such, your views have been categorically refuted where they have been challenged!

When are you going to understand that everyone who believes and has received Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior belong to Him, NOT to Israel As I previously told you:

>>>FYI, every Israeli who ever received Jesus as their Messiah, along with the manifold number of Gentiles, ALL BELONG TO THE CHURCH. Which DID NOT exist until Pentecost! The Church IS NOT Israel. The nation of Israel, measured in millions of people, REJECTED Jesus as their Messiah. You need to do some research and study from your denial of that fact! Israel will not recognize Jesus s their Messiah, until His second coming, near the end of the tribulation, as documented in Zech.2:10 and
14:4-5!<<<


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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Quasar92 said:


And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The word /elect/ never refers to Israel in the New testament. In every instance it refers to either Christians, Christ, or angels.

The word elect is 'eklektos' which means...

1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by
God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a)
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the
Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

The word elect, chosen-'eklektos,' is used in the following verses in the NT where it always refers to Christians... whether Jew or gentile!

Here are a few examples,

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Check also...

Matthew 20:16, John 13:18, 15:16, Acts 15:22, 15:25, Romans 8:33, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 1:27-28, Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 3:12, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, Revelation 17:14.

If God wanted the elect of Mathew 24 to mean Jews, He would have used a different Greek word. Probably this one...

1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from
1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.


The fact of the matter is, Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

The word ELECT in Mt.24:31 specifically refers to Israel, as well as to the Church, the angels will gather from heaven.


Quasar92
 
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Quasar92

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I don’t think so.





Except for the fact Jesus and Paul disagree with you on the timing. Paul said it happens after The coming of Christ just before those that are alive and remain are changed, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Jesus said 4 times in John 6 it would be at “the last day”. That is not the last day of a believers life it is that last day at His coming as stated elsewhere.





Not one word of this passage says we will be resurrected at death this whole chapter is about “the resurrection” of the dead not multiple resurrections at the death of different believers. Nothing in verse 44 gives us the timing that is found in verse 23, 52, John 6, 1 Thessalonians 4, at His coming.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It appears to me that you build your whole case on a misinterpretation of “everyman in his own order” saying every man’s order is when he dies and ignore what Jesus said in John 6 and what Paul said I 1 Thessalonians 4. You even ignor what Paul said in verse 52 the dead are raised at the last trump.

Your interpretation of this verse as I understand it tells us, everyman in Christ is raised at death (his own order) then the verse says Christ is the first fruits, and then we are told that we that are Christ’s at His coming. Why would Paul refer to the dead in Christ in the sentence first before mentioning Christ himself who was the first fruits?

IMHO a much more reasonable interpretation would be, the statement “every man in his own order” which is all to be resurrected from the dead including Christ who came, died in human flesh and was raised the first fruits being the first of every man in his own order and afterward at His coming is everyone else that belongs to Christ. The resurrection is a onetime event at the last day at His coming at the last trump not something spread over 2000 years. The order is laid out for us in verse 23 Christ first, after that everyone who is Christ’s at His coming.



You only assume a trip to heaven in John 14:1-2 there is nothing in verse 28 to misconstrue as a trip to heaven.


Your argument about the believers dying each, in his own turn, reerring to 1 Cor.15:23, is correct as far as the wording of it is concerned, but ludicrous as to your assumption they all die other than ech in his own turn. Such as all at one time.

FYI, the Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb, in Rev.19:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth. Jesus will then return in His second coming, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies FROM HEAVEN. With that, you can cut out denying the Scriptures telling you, the Church went to heaven at the time it is CAUGHT UP to meet the Lord in the sky. From where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised, in Jn.14:2-3 and 28!


Quasar92
 
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Hal A Peno

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The fact of the matter is, Jesus ministry in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6. The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

The word ELECT in Mt.24:31 specifically refers to Israel, as well as to the Church, the angels will gather from heaven.


Quasar92
His ministry wasn't so exclusive to Israel, Israel is the focus of it, but that doesn't mean only Israel is saved. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but his ministry was to the world...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Mathew 15 Jesus disciples were annoyed by the woman and tells her and the disciples that he was sent to Israel, but a Canaanite woman is a gentile, and he healed her daughter!

In Mathew 24, the disciples asked Jesus a three part question. One was, "what is the consumation of the age?" That implies all people living at that time, not just Israel or Jews. The word ELECT in Mathew 24:31 indicates Christians. No matter what you do you can't debunk that!

Elect,
eklektos
picked out, chosen

  • chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God, the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable, choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.
    NOT ONCE is the word 'eklektos' used to describe Israel or Jews in the New Testament.

    I challenge you to quote ONE verse in the NT where the word EKLEKTOS implies Israel!
    I said previously,
    Here are a few examples how the word for 'elect' in Mathew 24 is used elsewhere.

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Matthew 20:16, So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    John 13:18 15:16, Acts 15:22, 15:25, Romans 8:33, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 1:27-28, Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 3:12, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, Revelation 17:14.
    ELECT IMPLIES CHRISTIANS.
 
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His ministry wasn't so exclusive to Israel, Israel is the focus of it, but that doesn't mean only Israel is saved. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but his ministry was to the world...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Mathew 15 Jesus disciples were annoyed by the woman and tells her and the disciples that he was sent to Israel, but a Canaanite woman is a gentile, and he healed her daughter!

In Mathew 24, the disciples asked Jesus a three part question. One was, "what is the consumation of the age?" That implies all people living at that time, not just Israel or Jews. The word ELECT in Mathew 24:31 indicates Christians. No matter what you do you can't debunk that!

Elect,
eklektos
picked out, chosen

  • chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God, the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable, choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.
    NOT ONCE is the word 'eklektos' used to describe Israel or Jews in the New Testament.

    I challenge you to quote ONE verse in the NT where the word EKLEKTOS implies Israel!
    I said previously,
    Here are a few examples how the word for 'elect' in Mathew 24 is used elsewhere.

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Matthew 20:16, So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    John 13:18 15:16, Acts 15:22, 15:25, Romans 8:33, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 1:27-28, Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 3:12, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, Revelation 17:14.
    ELECT IMPLIES CHRISTIANS.
His ministry wasn't so exclusive to Israel, Israel is the focus of it, but that doesn't mean only Israel is saved. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but his ministry was to the world...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Mathew 15 Jesus disciples were annoyed by the woman and tells her and the disciples that he was sent to Israel, but a Canaanite woman is a gentile, and he healed her daughter!

In Mathew 24, the disciples asked Jesus a three part question. One was, "what is the consumation of the age?" That implies all people living at that time, not just Israel or Jews. The word ELECT in Mathew 24:31 indicates Christians. No matter what you do you can't debunk that!

Elect,
eklektos
picked out, chosen

  • chosen by God, to obtain salvation through Christ, Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God, the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable, choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.
    NOT ONCE is the word 'eklektos' used to describe Israel or Jews in the New Testament.

    I challenge you to quote ONE verse in the NT where the word EKLEKTOS implies Israel!
    I said previously,
    Here are a few examples how the word for 'elect' in Mathew 24 is used elsewhere.

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Matthew 20:16, So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    John 13:18 15:16, Acts 15:22, 15:25, Romans 8:33, 16:13, 1 Corinthians 1:27-28, Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 3:12, James 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13, Revelation 17:14.
    ELECT IMPLIES CHRISTIANS.


You apparently didn't understnd what I wrote in my post #55. At the time of Jesus first advent, i5 was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, as He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6.. The Church DID NOT exist then. because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. From which there is NO OPTION. No Gentiles becaje members of Jesus body, His Church until AFTER Pentecost.


Quasar92
 
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Hal A Peno

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You apparetly didn't understnd what I wrote in my post #55. At the time of Jesus first advent, it5 was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, as He made crystal clear in Mt.15:35 and in 10:5-6.. The Church DID NOT exist then. because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3. From which there is NO OPTION. No Gentiles becaje members of Jesus body, His Church until AFTER Pentecost.


Quasar92
Maybe I understood it too well and you didn't like the answer. People were called 'elect and chosen' before Pentecost. That means they were Christians. This stuff that the church isn't mentioned or didn't exist until Pentecost is a moot argument.
 
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Quasar92

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Maybe I understood it too well and you didn't like the answer. People were called 'elect and chosen' before Pentecost. That means they were Christians. This stuff that the church isn't mentioned or didn't exist until Pentecost is a moot argument.


Woulod you care to explain how the Church would exist without the Holy Spirit? Nothing moot about it!


Quasar92
 
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