listed

are you?
May 14, 2011
9,126
1,817
✟53,797.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Actually, it appears that you are treating my questions as unimportant. I asked several questions.

I am looking for honest answers here from people who use what John said concerning "the Lord's Day" (Rev. 1:10), as a proof text that he was referring to Sunday. If this is your belief, can you provide evidence from the Bible to support such a conclusion?
You surmise both phrases mean the same thing. It isn't my job to prove otherwise. It's you job to support your idea.

I get the distinct impression that is not quite true.
 
Upvote 0

woobadooba

Legend
Sep 4, 2005
11,307
914
✟10,191.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Did you know that the phrase 'first day of the week' is not found in the original texts?
Many of the earlier translations had the word 'day' in italics.

Only the word, "day," is in italics; meaning, it was added by the translators.

Translated properly, it would be 'first of the Sabbaths'. This is a reason for this.

Translated properly?

It would be better to say, translated literally. Then it would be, "first of the week". The translators, who knew the languages better than most of us, added "day," because it made sense to do so. Hence, "first day of the week".
 
Upvote 0

woobadooba

Legend
Sep 4, 2005
11,307
914
✟10,191.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You surmise both phrases mean the same thing. It isn't my job to prove otherwise. It's you job to support your idea.
I gave reasons for my position. I did not say or imply that it is correct. To the contrary, I said I am open to the possibility of being wrong.

Having said that, when you are going to answer my questions?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

listed

are you?
May 14, 2011
9,126
1,817
✟53,797.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
We need to have a solid basis for our beliefs concerning God. If we have no way to validate our doctrines, then how can we be sure what we are saying is of God? The Bereans understood this (see Acts 7:10-11).

As for your opinion about the worthiness of this discussion, you are free to refrain from getting involved. But I believe it is worth talking about . . . for reasons already mentioned above.
In-other-words what you're really trying to do is destroy the practice of most Christians to bring into bondage legalism also known as works salvation.
 
Upvote 0

prophetjul

Active Member
Jul 6, 2017
40
3
61
Sabah
✟8,673.00
Country
Malaysia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Only the word, "day," is in italics; meaning, it was added by the translators.



Translated properly?

It would be better to say, translated literally. Then it would be, "first of the week". The translators, who knew the languages better than most of us, added "day," because it made sense to do so. Hence, "first day of the week".
The word 'Sabbaton' is plural. Therefore the phrase should be 'first of the weeks'.

Made sense to whom? Sure does not make sense to the Jew.
 
Upvote 0

woobadooba

Legend
Sep 4, 2005
11,307
914
✟10,191.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In-other-words what you're really trying to do is destroy the practice of most Christians to bring into bondage legalism also known as works salvation.
You are jumping to conclusions, and making false statements about me. This behavior is not helpful to you or anyone else.

It would do you well to heed the words of James: "So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (James 1:19, NKJV).
 
Upvote 0

woobadooba

Legend
Sep 4, 2005
11,307
914
✟10,191.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The word 'Sabbaton' is plural. Therefore the phrase should be 'first of the weeks'.

Made sense to whom? Sure does not make sense to the Jew.
"Elohim" is also plural. Yet there is only one God (see Deuteronomy 6:4). Likewise, there is only one day out of the weekly cycle in which God rested and blessed and sanctified . . . the seventh-day (see Genesis 2:2-3).

And the word, "week," in "first of the week," is not in the plural. You are making things up, or have been taught wrongly.

I feel we are going off topic now. Please, let's keep this thread on topic.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SAAN

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
2,034
489
Atlanta, GA
✟80,985.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
John said, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet" (Revelation 1:10, NKJV).

Mainstream Christianity argues that John, in speaking of "the Lord's Day," was referring to "Sunday"— the first day of the week.

Question: What biblical proof is there to validate the belief that John was speaking of "Sunday" when using the words, "the Lord's Day".

Note: the expression, "the Lord's Day," only appears once in the Scriptures. But other expressions similar to it appear, such as "day of the LORD" (29 times), for example.

Could there be a correlation between "the Lord's Day" and "day of the LORD"? In other words, could it be possible that Mainstream Christianity has it wrong in thinking John was speaking of Sunday? Could it be that, in speaking of being "in the Spirit," he was speaking prophetically of the "day of the LORD," but expressing the thought with a slight variation—i.e., "the Lord's Day"?

Verses Taken from the New King James Version (emphasis mine)

Isaiah 2:12 — For the day of the LORD of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up— And it shall be brought low—

Isaiah 13:6 — Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9 — Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

Isaiah 34:8 — For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.

Jeremiah 46:10 — For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries. The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood; For the Lord GOD of hosts has a sacrifice In the north country by the River Euphrates.

Lamentations 2:22 — "You have invited as to a feast day The terrors that surround me. In the day of the LORD's anger There was no refugee or survivor. Those whom I have borne and brought up My enemies have destroyed."

Ezekiel 13:5 — You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the LORD.

Ezekiel 30:3 — For the day is near, Even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.

Joel 1:15 — Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.

Joel 2:1 — Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand:

Joel 2:11 — The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

Joel 2:31 — The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

Joel 3:14 — Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Amos 5:18 — Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! For what good is the day of the LORD to you? It will be darkness, and not light.

Amos 5:20 — Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?

Obadiah 1:15 — "For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.

Zephaniah 1:7 — Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD; For the day of the LORD is at hand, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests.

Zephaniah 1:8 — "And it shall be, In the day of the LORD's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.

Zephaniah 1:14 — The great day of the LORD is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out.

Zephaniah 1:18 — Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the LORD's wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy, For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land.

Zephaniah 2:2 — Before the decree is issued, Or the day passes like chaff, Before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD's anger comes upon you!

Zephaniah 2:3 — Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger.

Zechariah 14:1 — Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.

Malachi 4:5 — Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Acts 2:20 — THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND AWESOME DAY OF THE LORD.

1 Corinthians 5:5 — deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:14 — (as also you have understood us in part), that we are your boast as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 — For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 — But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
There really is no proof on what day of the week John was referring to. Theology school pushes it as Sunday, probably because everything else the RCC has passed down. Saturday could be argued over Lord of the Sabbath, but it could have been a biblical Feast Day John was referring to as well.

In the end its just wild and or best educated guess on what day John was talking about.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,804
13,115
72
✟362,270.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Did you know that the phrase 'first day of the week' is not found in the original texts?
Many of the earlier translations had the word 'day' in italics.

Translated properly, it would be 'first of the Sabbaths'. This is a reason for this.

In fact, the Jews do not name the days of the week other than the seventh day Sabbath.

That must make for immense confusion in Israel if you need to make any sort of appointment on a day other than Saturday.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,507
Georgia
✟899,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The only place where we see this expression, "the Lord's Day," is in Rev. 1:10.

I agree that the "exact" phrase is not used elsewhere just like John is the only one to use the term "antichrist" and the only one to use the phrase "lake of fire".

But that does not mean that the subject is not also discussed in other books of the Bible at some level.

In all places referring to the Sabbath throughout the Scriptures, we see the closest approximation - given that Rev 1:10 is not about John going into the future and then after that - having a vision.

Given that this is not even a possible option.

The one we have left is "The Holy Day of the Lord" and "My Holy Day" as "The Lord's Day" where Jesus even says "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath".

Your reference to things like the "Awesome day of the Lord" and "terrible day of the Lord" points to a future event. John could have said "while I was in vision I was shown the Day of the Lord" or "I John saw the terrible Day of the Lord" or even "I saw the terrible and awesome Lord's Day" . Surely you and I would agree this fits the model you have proposed.

But instead of that He is taken into vision ON the Lord's Day - which is language for a point in time, day of week or month or year - etc in which he is living and at which time he is taken into vision.

Due to the apocalyptic nature of the book of Revelation, it makes more sense to me that it is referring to the Day of the LORD.

I admit that I could be wrong -- but the details seem to point away from this language -

"while I was in vision I was shown the Day of the Lord"
or "I John saw the terrible Day of the Lord"
or even "I saw the terrible and awesome Lord's Day".

In stead of that we have " 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”

"Was in the Spirit" past tense.
"ON the Lord's Day" at a specific point in time in the past.

We both can admit that the Isaiah 58:13 phrases "The Holy Day of the Lord" and "My Holy Day" - as a weekly holy day - can easily point to day in the past that is specifically "The Holy Day of the Lord" as one possibility fitting with the way it is presented.

To get this to be a future day -- as if prophets are taken to a future day -- and then are taken into vision while still living in the future - is something we have no reference for at all in all of scripture. Seems like a bit of a leap.

But the "Term" as you point out - could be fit into the "awesome and terrible day of the Lord" - a future day -- if all other context details were neutral or not applicable or were favorable to it. As I propose in these examples -- "while I was in vision I was shown the Day of the Lord" or "I John saw the terrible Day of the Lord" or even "I saw the terrible and awesome Lord's Day"
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,584
2,203
88
Union County, TN
✟656,784.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why do you limit yourself to the New Testament? Do you not believe the Old Testament has application to our lives?

Paul said, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17, NKJV)

At the time of writing this, there was no New Testament to read from. Paul was referring to what we know of as the Old Testament.

Regarding the idea that every day is the Lord's day, you may think like that if you want to, but God didn't make that rule. What God did, however, is sanctify the seventh day (set it apart from the other days as a holy day). And He commanded His people to keep it holy (see Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Hebrews 4:9).

If you want to say you regard every day as the "Lord's day," then that is different. But to say, "Every day is the Lord's day," and then follow it up with, "some twist it to mean a certain day," is to imply we must agree with and follow your rule.

In speaking in this way, you are adding a rule to the Scriptures that isn't there, and expecting us to follow it. What makes that different from what the Pharisees did who added many rules to what God gave His people?
It appears that you are here just to argue. I have more things to do friend. If you cannot differentiate between the old covenant and the new you really do have a problem. Have fun at someone else's expense.
 
Upvote 0

woobadooba

Legend
Sep 4, 2005
11,307
914
✟10,191.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It appears that you are here just to argue. I have more things to do friend. If you cannot differentiate between the old covenant and the new you really do have a problem. Have fun at someone else's expense.
I'm not here to have fun at the expense of others, but to engage in fruitful discussion. Don't get offended when people question your beliefs. Such behavior is not helpful in setting a good example to others.
 
Upvote 0

prophetjul

Active Member
Jul 6, 2017
40
3
61
Sabah
✟8,673.00
Country
Malaysia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Elohim" is also plural. Yet there is only one God (see Deuteronomy 6:4). Likewise, there is only one day out of the weekly cycle in which God rested and blessed and sanctified . . . the seventh-day (see Genesis 2:2-3).

And the word, "week," in "first of the week," is not in the plural. You are making things up, or have been taught wrongly.

I feel we are going off topic now. Please, let's keep this thread on topic.
The word 'Sabbaton' is plural. There is no 'day' in the phrase. And the phrase is NOT about the first day of the week. It is about the seven Sabbaths, which to a Jew is understood.

Whereas the greek trained minds like our modern minds will think in their own trainings.
The addition of the word 'day' to the phrase takes away what God is trying to say.

In Young;s Literal translation

28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

2 and lo, there came a great earthquake, for a messenger of the Lord, having come down out of heaven, having come, did roll away the stone from the door, and was sitting upon it,

This phrase has everything to do with the Lord's day becasue it is often taught, erroneously, this is the resurrection day of the Lord.
 
Upvote 0

prophetjul

Active Member
Jul 6, 2017
40
3
61
Sabah
✟8,673.00
Country
Malaysia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That must make for immense confusion in Israel if you need to make any sort of appointment on a day other than Saturday.
No. There is no confusion.

Jews have no phrase such as 'first day of the week' . They will use the phrase 'the day after Sabbath'.

No confusion. The confusion is when the Greco mindset tries to force their understanding by changing scriptures to suite their understanding.

Dangerous
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Shimshon
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

woobadooba

Legend
Sep 4, 2005
11,307
914
✟10,191.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The word 'Sabbaton' is plural. There is no 'day' in the phrase. And the phrase is NOT about the first day of the week. It is about the seven Sabbaths, which to a Jew is understood.

Whereas the greek trained minds like our modern minds will think in their own trainings.
The addition of the word 'day' to the phrase takes away what God is trying to say.

In Young;s Literal translation

28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

2 and lo, there came a great earthquake, for a messenger of the Lord, having come down out of heaven, having come, did roll away the stone from the door, and was sitting upon it,

This phrase has everything to do with the Lord's day becasue it is often taught, erroneously, this is the resurrection day of the Lord.
The position you are taking here makes no sense to me. I don't believe the translators were in error.
 
Upvote 0

prophetjul

Active Member
Jul 6, 2017
40
3
61
Sabah
✟8,673.00
Country
Malaysia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The position you are taking here makes no sense to me. I don't believe the translators were in error.

The phrase i am pointing out is 'mia ton Sabbaton'. Translated as i have shown you in Young's Literal Translation is 'first of the Sabbaths'. The word 'day' is NOT found in the original greek text.

YLT

28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

2 and lo, there came a great earthquake, for a messenger of the Lord, having come down out of heaven, having come, did roll away the stone from the door, and was sitting upon it,

That is the reason why the older translations had the word 'day' in italics.

The 'first of the Sabbaths' is to do with the counting of the seven Sabbaths to Pentecost as instructed by the Lord in Lev 23.
In ALL the 8 times this phrase if used, it points towards Pentecost. That is Hebraic understanding,not our contemporary understanding of scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

woobadooba

Legend
Sep 4, 2005
11,307
914
✟10,191.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The phrase i am pointing out is 'mia ton Sabbaton'. Translated as i have shown you in Young's Literal Translation is 'first of the Sabbaths'. The word 'day' is NOT found in the original greek text.

YLT

28 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

2 and lo, there came a great earthquake, for a messenger of the Lord, having come down out of heaven, having come, did roll away the stone from the door, and was sitting upon it,

That is the reason why the older translations had the word 'day' in italics.

The 'first of the Sabbaths' is to do with the counting of the seven Sabbaths to Pentecost as instructed by the Lord in Lev 23.
In ALL the 8 times this phrase if used, it points towards Pentecost. That is Hebraic understanding,not our contemporary understanding of scriptures.
I am now intrigued by this thought. I will take a deeper look at it.
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,634
✟80,400.00
Faith
Non-Denom
You surmise both phrases mean the same thing. It isn't my job to prove otherwise. It's you job to support your idea.

I get the distinct impression that is not quite true.
Which person that worships on Sunday asks a question like the one in the OP. If he does worship on Sunday he is the first in over 15 years since I have been here. That would make it very rare.

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,634
✟80,400.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Only the word, "day," is in italics; meaning, it was added by the translators.
It is not in italics in my off the shelf 30 year old Bible. I checked my interlinear and the word day is there in Greek. Besides that i have had many discussions over the word "hēmera" from the text.

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0