Universalism...why not?

Which is it?

  • God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • God can't do what he wants to do.

    Votes: 2 4.1%
  • Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    Votes: 40 81.6%
  • Don't know...never thought about this before.

    Votes: 3 6.1%

  • Total voters
    49

Dartman

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With God, the possibilities have already been determined in eternity.
Yes, God knows "all His works from the beginning". It's HUMANS that don't know, and that have free will.
God knowing our choices doesn't remove our freedom.
 
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GillDouglas

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Yes, God knows "all His works from the beginning". It's HUMANS that don't know, and that have free will.
God knowing our choices doesn't remove our freedom.
Yet our freedom is limited by the sovereignty of God. We are not autonomous.
 
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surrender1

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Something is wrong here. You say that it would be against his nature or his eternal plan to save people from horrors in this life but, also, that he simply must do that in the afterlife...in order to be true to himself.

Huh?
Nope, that's not at all what I said. :)
 
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surrender1

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The answer to your question is after this life there is judgement. God gives people all the opportunity they need in this life to accept him and it is on us to decide what to do.

If God was going to save all people, even those who never professed faith in Christ, then Jesus would not have needed to die. God could have just pardoned humanity.
I'm not saying God is going to save people who don't profess Christ. I'm saying he'll continue working on their souls after death and they will eventually profess Christ. He works on believers' souls after death. Since God wants all men to be saved and can save all men, then I believe God will do it.
 
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surrender1

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Ok. You're obviously not in a position to have a discussion about it. You've already made up your mind, no matter how what you want to ignore along the way. I hope you aren't embracing this delusion because someone close to you died while lost. It won't help you or them.
I realize that the evidence for universalism is weaker than the evidence for annihilationsim but there is evidence for it. What makes you think that Paul is wrong when he said that Jesus' one act of obedience leads to life and justification for all men?
 
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surrender1

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Thats the 6 million dollar question. It would be rather presumptuous of me to tell you God would and will annihilate anyone. There are passages that sure look that way.
Now on to His character...no, annihilation would not fit His character from my perspective.
I agree.
 
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surrender1

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I believe that we are created in Gods image and part of that is to be liked and loved because people want to like and love us, not because they have been forced to. He gave us free will and dominion over the earth and it is how we use that free will that determines our salvation.

I think the unforgivable sin is to reject God when you have an understanding of who/what you are rejecting. I always remember once as a kid my dad saying he hated and despised God. He had chosen to reject God and turn against Him. He was a horrible violent and vindictive man who died before I was saved but I have been able to forgive. I have had to accept that I believe he had rejected God and would therefore be judged on who he was and I have no doubt he is in hell as he chose in his lifetime to reject God.
Sounds as if your father did terrible things in this life; I do believe there are consequences for how we live. Consequences in this life and that extend into the next. But even an earthly judge, who is not as merciful as God, recognizes that an eternal punishment does not fit finite crimes. Besides, God doesn't punish just for the sake of punishing. His ways are always constructive. He is not like man who needs to bring harm to others just to get back at them. Our God is one who restores that which is broken.
 
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Dartman

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Yet our freedom is limited by the sovereignty of God. We are not autonomous.
God's sovereignty doesn't limit our freedom on any day to day basis.
Eze 18:20 - 24 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
 
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surrender1

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This is why we have the Bible--in order to know God's will so that we don't simply guess at it.
And his will is that all men be saved. "This is good and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."
 
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GillDouglas

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God's sovereignty doesn't limit our freedom on any day to day basis.
Eze 18:20 - 24 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Only God has free will in the sense of complete autonomy, or ultimate self-determination. Men have limited free will. " “But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” " (John 6:64-65 )
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I'm not saying God is going to save people who don't profess Christ. I'm saying he'll continue working on their souls after death and they will eventually profess Christ. He works on believers' souls after death. Since God wants all men to be saved and can save all men, then I believe God will do it.

Well universalism is the belief that God will save all people regardless. So might want to change your title
 
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AmericanChristian91

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Well universalism is the belief that God will save all people regardless. So might want to change your title

Yes and No.

Their are various forms of Universalism. One being that Gods saves all regardless of their beliefs.

But the title doesn't need to be changed, because this topic is about Christian universalism, aka Universal Reconciliation.

Universal reconciliation - Wikipedia
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Thedictator

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If my child became a wayward soul, as any loving parent I would do everything I could to woo him back to a healthy and restorative place. I would never give up on him. I would put no time limits on my love and patience towards him.

If our Father desires all men to be saved, why can't he continue to work on their souls postmortem? If he wanted to, couldn't he do it? Can't God do what he wants to do? I think he can do what he wants to do.

So, if God desires all men to be saved and if God can do what he wants to do, he wouldn't put a time limit (i.e. upon death) on his love and patience towards us.

So, if God's love and patience run out on a soul upon death, either God doesn't want all men to be saved or God can't do what he wants to do. Which is it?

First of all, your twisted logic has no bearing on who God is or his nature. God is God whether you like it or not. What God can do is not the same as what God will do. God set up a system for salvation and those who obey the Gospel will find that salvation, and those who want to live their life the way they want without God, will find Damnation.
 
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Thedictator

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If He was going to have universal salvation, He could easily do it in this life.

Now is the time.

Also Universal Salvation does not need Jesus Christ on the Cross for salvation.
 
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mkgal1

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I just read through most of the posts of this thread---I wanted to comment on a few points:

If He was going to have universal salvation, He could easily do it in this life.
.....I don't believe so. I don't believe God is going to trample over humanity's free will (that's not genuine love....to limit freedom).

In this culture---power and influence is king, and a LOT of people would rather choose power over love.... IN THIS ENVIRONMENT (although they will masquerade as choosing God at the same time they're oppressing others).

However.....I believe that, in another environment, where LOVE is preferred and honored above all.... things may be different.



Only God has free will in the sense of complete autonomy, or ultimate self-determination. Men have limited free will. " “But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” " (John 6:64-65 )
Who is to say that this is only speaking of a limited time...that those who didn't believe eventually came to believe?
 
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mkgal1

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Also Universal Salvation does not need Jesus Christ on the Cross for salvation.
There are different varieties of Universalism. One form is called Christian Universalism that believes that the work of Jesus on the cross was God's supreme act of love that demonstrated His love for ALL. St Francis of Assisi and John Duns Scotus are a couple of believers of this form of Universalism that I'm aware of (just in case some are thinking this is a *new* belief system). It could have been just what the early church believed prior to the Bible being cannonized.....but would we ever really know since most people weren't even literate in that time period?
 
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PropheticTimes

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There are different varieties of Universalism. One form is called Christian Universalism that believes that the work of Jesus on the cross was God's supreme act of love that demonstrated His love for ALL.

Yet you must ACCEPT that act for it to apply to you.
 
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mkgal1

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Yet you must ACCEPT that act for it to apply to you.
True. The question is: is there a time of expiration in order for us to accept it? IOW......is it a "limited time only" offer?
 
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PropheticTimes

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True. The question is: is there a time of expiration in order for us to accept it? IOW......is it a "limited time only" offer?

I believe if you are presented with the facts in your lifetime and CHOOSE to reject Christ and go your own way, you have already been given a chance of eternal life but threw it away.

However, what of those who die without ever hearing the gospel? I believe they will be given a chance at some point after death to know and accept Christ.
 
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