Universalism...why not?

[ClementofA]

Well universalism is the belief that God will save all people regardless. So might want to change your title

"What is Christian Universalism? Christian universalism is a belief in the simple Bible truth that Jesus Christ is the "Lamb who takes away the sin of the world." He is the promised Messiah of whom the prophets of the Old Covenant foresaw; Jesus is the Savior of the world, He is the "Second Adam," through Whom all mankind will be restored to God's original image, He is the only way to the Father, the only begotton Son of God Who gave His life for the world. We believe He is king and judge of the universe, and owner of all Creation, and that His purpose for the ages (aions) is to bring all things under His government and reconciled with Himself.

"We believe that through His death, burial and resurrection, Jesus will save all mankind and restore all things. As Christ Himself said, "If I be lifted up (crucified) I will draw all men to me" (as also prophesied in Psalm 22). Jesus is the Name before which every man, woman and child, from all of human history will bow before and declare that He is Lord. At that day, the prophesied "restoration of all things" shall come to pass, and of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end."

Christian Universalism: What is it?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

"What is Christian Universalism? Christian universalism is a belief in the simple Bible truth that Jesus Christ is the "Lamb who takes away the sin of the world." He is the promised Messiah of whom the prophets of the Old Covenant foresaw; Jesus is the Savior of the world, He is the "Second Adam," through Whom all mankind will be restored to God's original image, He is the only way to the Father, the only begotton Son of God Who gave His life for the world. We believe He is king and judge of the universe, and owner of all Creation, and that His purpose for the ages (aions) is to bring all things under His government and reconciled with Himself.

"We believe that through His death, burial and resurrection, Jesus will save all mankind and restore all things. As Christ Himself said, "If I be lifted up (crucified) I will draw all men to me" (as also prophesied in Psalm 22). Jesus is the Name before which every man, woman and child, from all of human history will bow before and declare that He is Lord. At that day, the prophesied "restoration of all things" shall come to pass, and of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end."

Christian Universalism: What is it?

Such an interpretation completely ignores the very words of Jesus that Godms wrath would abide on those who disobeyed him.

 

[ClementofA]

Such an interpretation completely ignores the very words of Jesus that Godms wrath would abide on those who disobeyed him.

That & many other objections to CU are answered here:

Hell Explained or Bible Threatenings Explained

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Dartman]

Only God has free will in the sense of complete autonomy, or ultimate self-determination. Men have limited free will. " “But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” " (John 6:64-65 )

Matt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, who, if his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone; 10 or if he shall ask for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 

[Albion]

And his will is that all men be saved. "This is good and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."

The tread is about universal salvation, not the fact that God would have all to be saved.

 

[Dartman]

I realize that the evidence for universalism is weaker than the evidence for annihilationsim but there is evidence for it. What makes you think that Paul is wrong when he said that Jesus' one act of obedience leads to life and justification for all men?

Paul isn't explaining universal salvation, he is explaining universal opportunity. It is AVAILABLE, but "MANY" don't take advantage of the offer.
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[mkgal1]

I believe if you are presented with the facts in your lifetime and CHOOSE to reject Christ and go your own way, you have already been given a chance of eternal life but threw it away.

Have you never seen people interpret the Bible in a very hateful and rude way (but then claim they're just "speaking the truth in love" or "standing up for what's right")? Have you never met an Atheist that has a VERY strong sense of morality and what it means to love others well (I can point you in the direction of some that post on this forum, to illustrate my point if you'd like)?

Another experience that can be very enlightening is knowing someone personally that exhibits narcissistic tendencies and hides behind a religious shroud and is VERY skilled at using Bible verses *against* others....and goes on smear campaigns when they don't get their way. Have you ever experienced *that*? Do you know any genuinely loving parents that have had their own children turned against them by a vengeful and manipulative ex, and even when they offer acts of love to their child, they are thought to be the one that's being manipulative and controlling?

I think that's actually happened to God---a lot of skilled narcissists over the years have staged an all out act of "parental alienation" and people aren't rejecting the True God (they've not been presented with the "original")...but they're rejecting a god that's been formed by some misguided and fearful people that would rather have power over love (in this current world). Here's an example of what I mean here: Vyckie Garrison - How Playing Good Christian Wife Almost Killed Me
I have hope that will all change.....eventually....as God isn't limited by time.

 

[mkgal1]

Paul isn't explaining universal salvation, he is explaining universal opportunity. It is AVAILABLE, but "MANY" don't take advantage of the offer.
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So......like Surrender asked in the OP, which is it: does God NOT really desire all men to be saved (even though the Bible says otherwise)......or is it that He *can't* accomplish what He desires, and He "doesn't get His desires"?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Conflation of God's prescriptive will and decretive will

 

[mkgal1]

Here's a list of Bible verses that support the idea of Christian Universalism (the thing is....from what I understand, there are just as many verses that support annihilation and eternal torment).

What a lot of people have done is they've read these verses through the filter of the framework of either eternal torment or annihilation, when I believe that maybe we should, instead, read the verses that seem to support those view through the framework of universal reconciliation.:

John 12:32- "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Acts 3:21- Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

Romans 5:18- Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

1 Cor 15:22-28- For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Phil 2:9-11- For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1st Timothy 2:4-This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11- For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.

Hebrews 2:9-What we do see is Jesus, who was given a position "a little lower than the angels"; and because he suffered death for us, he is now "crowned with glory and honor." Yes, by God's grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone.

1st John 2:2-He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

2nd Peter 3:9-The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[dqhall]

Jesus was preaching and doing miracles in Capernaum (home of Peter's mother in law), Bethsaida (hometown of James and John), and Chorazin. They were his neighbors. Jesus did not tell them they were all going to live forever in paradise. He rebuked them:

Matthew 11:20 (WEB) Then he began to denounce the cities in which most of his mighty works had been done, because they didn't repent. 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 You, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, you will go down to Hades. For if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in you, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom, on the day of judgment, than for you."

There are 7.2 billion people in the world. I think God will only keep the best. That is the way to end murder, war, fornication, disease, aging, birth defects, greed and other forms of evil.

The world ant population is estimated to be in the trillions. Did God make fire ants? I do not think they will all be kept for an eternity, for creatures clash with each other. My dimly lit mind sees improvements are coming to mankind. God will keep the good and reject the bad. I remember a parable about a caterpillar that sprouts wings and becomes a butterfly. A person must try to become a new creation in God to be saved.

 

[Dartman]

So......like Surrender asked in the OP, which is it: does God NOT all men to be saved (even though the Bible says otherwise)......or is it that He *can't* accomplish what He desires, and He "doesn't get His desires"?

Neither of these options.
God's plan is to reward those that love and obey Him, as "sons and daughters".

2 Cor 6:14-18 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The historic position of the Christian Church has been that dogmatic universalism is heterodox, but that it is nevertheless the hope and prayer of the Church that all, ultimately, will be saved. Which is to say, agnostic universalism (we can't know one way or the other at present) isn't heterodox, only dogmatic universalism is heterodox.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dartman]

Rev 20:11-15

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[The Scientist of the Eternal Pinecone]

2 Peter 2:12
"These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed."

Interesting that they were born to be caught and destroyed. And the next verses adds to this. Two kinds of vessels that God has created and prepared.

Romans 9:22-23
"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory."

I believe that people will be destroyed, will go to hell, will suffer wrath on the day of judgement and will be thrown into the lake of fire. As told in the above verse: God is going to show His wrath, He actually desires to show it and at the same time desires to make His power known AND ALSO at the same time this act will show His glory for the vessels of mercy. What a glorious and powerful God! And what mercy He has shown for the one's saved! As I understand most people give glory to God for them being saved! What mercy shown to the one's saved if all of this was actually out of their hands so to speak, if it was all God's doing, if they were written in the Book of Life since the beginning of creation! They could have been the one's destroyed! But they were saved!

But that's just my little interpretation. I personally think I will be destroyed. It's an interesting stand point when you start to accept it. -_-

At the same time looking at this the second time the true interpretation of the second set of verses is not clear to me. It's possible that vessels of wrath were not prepared by God for that, possibly they had a chance to be prepared by God as the vessels of His mercy if they had chosen that, but as they didn't, they were prepared for destruction (by Satan?)...

Oh well. One thing is clear. People will be destroyed...

 

[mkgal1]

dogmatic universalism is heterodox, but that it is nevertheless the hope and prayer of the Church that all, ultimately, will be saved. Which is to say, agnostic universalism (we can't know one way or the other at present) isn't heterodox, only dogmatic universalism is heterodox.

I don't really know how a person can (rightly) get dogmatic over this, because we simply just don't know (and, like I posted earlier, the Bible actually can support all three of the main belief systems). I am of the opinion that it's wise to do our best to live with a love that's befitting of the Kingdom of God right now....and HOPE for the souls of others that God (not us) will reconcile ALL.

 

[mkgal1]

I believe that people will be destroyed, will go to hell, will suffer wrath on the day of judgement and will be thrown into the lake of fire. As told in the above verse: God is going to show His wrath, He actually desires to show it and at the same time desires to make His power known AND ALSO at the same time this act will show His glory for the vessels of mercy.

But then there's this verse that's rebuking the Israelites for sacrificing their children to appease Molech:


They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.~Jeremiah 32:35

....and David wasn't approved to build the temple because of the "blood on his hands". Does it make sense that the same God would destroy His own creation violently (innocent or not)?

 

[The Scientist of the Eternal Pinecone]

But then there's this verse that's rebuking the Israelites for sacrificing their children to appease Molech:


They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.~Jeremiah 32:35

....and David wasn't approved to build the temple because of the "blood on his hands". Does it make sense that the same God would destroy His own creation violently (innocent or not)?

I don't know how the above example tells that it's against God's character to destroy people. Examples of cities being destroyed because of sin in OT comes to mind.

In the above example they were sacrificing their children to some other god. It was an abomination in God's eyes. But a just judgement of destroying people that have sinned so greatly that they deserve the destruction - it seems that it pleases God. And probably, as our God is a righteous judge is the right action no matter what us humans might think as just. Book of revelation comes to mind, 19:1-3
"After this I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude in heaven, shouting:
"Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God!
For His judgments are true and righteous;
He has judged the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth with her immorality,
He has avenged the blood of His servants
that was poured out by her hand.”
And a second time they called out:
“Hallelujah!
Her smoke ascends forever and ever.”"

 

[surrender1]

First of all, your twisted logic has no bearing on who God is or his nature. God is God whether you like it or not. What God can do is not the same as what God will do. God set up a system for salvation and those who obey the Gospel will find that salvation, and those who want to live their life the way they want without God, will find Damnation.

Perhaps our theology says more about our own heart than God's.

 

[surrender1]

Also Universal Salvation does not need Jesus Christ on the Cross for salvation.

Yes it does.