Perfection or no?

[Bible Highlighter]

Your perception is always off.

You think only in black and white, polar opposites. If someone is not exactly agreeing with you they live a life of sin, sin, sin and they choose not to keep God;s commandments.

All you read is that they don't agree with you and you are off to prove that they promote sin and sinful behavior, so I'm not sure anyone can disagree with you before you are throwing out scripture in protest.

You need to listen to people and maybe learn something from what they are saying instead of constantly rolling out your own position and being defensive in promoting that only you are right.

Please stick with using Scripture or real world examples instead of mere opinion.

Thank you and may God bless you.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Your looking at the wrong thing. God tells us to look for the fruit of the spirit. The fruit that shows that they have the Holy Spirit in them.

Sin may be our own barometer for learning, since we know all about ourselves, but it should not be the barometer for looking at others.

Yes, I would say that the fruit of the Spirit is an indication if a person is truly walking after the Spirit or not.
But in my experience: I have discovered that the fruits of Eternal Security are not good. Eternal Security has led people into a life style of sin. It is not a matter of debate, but it is a fact. I have provided testimonies to show this very fact. So it does not matter if people who believe in OSAS here are living in a lifestyle of sin or not. The fact of the matter we know that the general message of OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

OSAS and Mass Murder and Suicide:
George Sodini


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[Bible Highlighter]

It's a little more simple to me, there are minor sins and major ones, it's true and we should ask forgiveness of all that we are aware of and simply try not to do them again, if we do, ask forgiveness again and so forth. Be sincere each time and never consider ahead of time, just doing them perpetually and asking forgiveness will go over with God, as it shows complete insincerity.

The major ones are mentioned in a few lists in the NT...can't miss them. Those and sins like them become sins unto death is we live a life of those without repentance or getting back on the right track.

That may be what you are saying but I got a little lost in it all.

As I said, I do not believe all sin leads to spiritual death because 1 John 5:16-17 says that this is so. Seeing 1 Peter 3:21 clearly says that baptism is not for salvation and that there are hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12), I do not believe we will be condemned for such minor transgressions. For things in regards to character flaws like not cutting the lawn yesterday when it was a little high or breaking the law in Port Authur, Texas that says, "Obnoxious odors may not be emitted while in an elevator" are not sins that lead unto the Lake of Fire. Surely God is not going to condemn folks for violating minor laws of the land like this (even if they are aware of them) and or if they are not being 100% perfect in the upkeep of their own home. Yes, we are to strive to be perfect in all we do. Jesus tells us to be perfect. I believe we can only do this by God's power. So a believer will seek out to obey in even the most minor things in time. But are minor transgressions (that are not specifically stated in the Bible) salvation issues? If that was the case, then nobody would be saved.

For 1 Corinthians 3 talks about works that were made out gold, hay, and stubble. Some of these lesser works will be burned up but they are still saved. Granted, this is talking about good deeds and not sin, but the point here is that even certain works done for God are not considered truly righteous and good enough to survive the fire.

I believe serious sin like murder, hate, lying, adultery, idolatry, theft, drunkenness, sexual immorality, sexual thoughts, etc. are all sins that lead unto the Second Death for any person if they are not repented of.


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[TheSeabass]

Then why the need for a substitutionary atonement? What you espouse here is the heresy of Erasmus.



You contradict yourself and make my point. If there was a need for Christ, as there obviously was, then God demanded something of man that he was incapable of providing.



And if being baptized into Christ is necessary so that we would be clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ, then it seems rather obvious that God demand's perfection, even if it is substitutionary.

The questioned asked in the OP was:

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

God does not expect that man will be perfect in keeping His commands. God did not require perfect sinless law keeping from Abraham but a simple faithful obedience. Abraham (and David) were justified by a faithful obedience and not by flawless law/command keeping, (Romans 4). Through the OT all God desired from the Jews was a faithful obedience and not flawless law keeping.

God does require a man to be perfect, spotless, blameless, without blemish for that man to enter heaven. Yet that perfection, spotlessness, blamelessness comes by being "in Christ" and not by perfect, flawless law keeping. It takes faithful obedience to be in Christ therefore Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him, (Hebrews 5:9).

If God did require flawless law keeping and man could keep God's law perfectly, then there would be no need for the sacrifice of Christ. Since Christ's obedience was flawless then man has to be in Him to been seen by God as flawless. Again, it just takes a faithful obedience (which God demands of man) to be in Christ not flawless law keeping (which God does not demand from man).

 

[TheSeabass]

You are having us one, right?

If you are serious, do you believe that any men are sinners?

Men in the bible were never justified by flawless law keeping but by an obedient faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The questioned asked in the OP was:

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

God does not expect that man will be perfect in keeping His commands. God did not require perfect sinlessness from Abraham but a simple faithful obedience. Abraham (and David)was justified by faithful obedience and not by flawless law/command keeping, (Romans 4). Through the OT all God desired from the Jews was a faithful obedience and not flawless law keeping.

God does require a man to be perfect, spotless, blameless, without blemish for that man to enter heaven. Yet that perfection, spotlessness, blamelessness comes by being "in Christ" and not by perfect, flawless law keeping. It takes faithful obedience to be in Christ therefore Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him, (Hebrews 9:6).

If God did require flawless law keeping and man could keep God's law perfectly, then there would be no need for the sacrifice of Christ. Since Christ's obedience was flawless then man has to be in Him to been seen by God as flawless. Again, it just takes a faithful obedience (which God demands of man) to be in Christ not flawless law keeping (which God does not demand from man).

Being perfect is not a salvation issue (Philippians 3:12). But God does call us to be perfect as a part of the goal of our Sanctification (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Jesus says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).
The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.

God says,
"Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16).

Jesus says, "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).

Paul says,
28 "Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."
(Colossians 1:28-29).

Paul says,
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
(Ephesians 5:25-27).

Did you catch that? Christ gave himself for the church so that he might sanctify it with the washing of the water of the Word (i.e. Scripture) so that Jesus might present to himself a church that is without spot, wrinkle, so that the church can be holy and without blemish.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 confirms this.

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."


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[Bible Highlighter]

Men in the bible were never justified by flawless law keeping but by an obedient faith.

Believers today do not keep the Old Law or the 613 Commands of Moses; They look to commands within the New Testament to obey God. For we are under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Believers are told in God's Word that they can cease from sin and that this will happen here on this Earth or within this life time.

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."
(1 Peter 4:1-2).

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[Bible Highlighter]

So we can either choose to believe these Scriptures or we can try to explain them away as saying something else (that goes beyond what the context is talking about).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Being perfect is about putting away minor transgressions out of your life.
Being perfect is not talking about putting away serious sins like murdering, hating, lying, and lusting after women, etc. A believer will not naturally do these kinds of sins because they are the types of sins that lead to the Second Death or the Lake of Fire (if they are not repented of) (See 1 John 5:16-17, Revelation 21:8, Romans 1:28-32, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Timothy 5:6, 1 Timothy 5:15, John 3:20, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, 1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 3:8, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15).


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[danstribe]

Thanks for sharing the "secret" to being perfect. Although your statement is completely irrational, and I'm not sure we share the same definition of the word.

Also, I'm coming to your house for a visit. I want to check on the parapet.

“When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring the guilt of blood upon your house, if anyone should fall from it. (Deut. 22:8)

Apparently, no we do not share the same definition of irrational since what you have just said is "completely irrational" As for a parapet...I have no balconies nor a flat roof to walk upon but it is reassuring to know that a "parapet inspector" is available should I need one. My use of the word "secret" was intended to be facetious.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Contrary to what many people think (that we are not capable of keeping God's commandments perfectly) we certainly are capable. And Christ said "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect"
The secret to being perfect is this: Keep the commandments, all of them and when you fail, when you sin (and you will) God will accept Christ's perfection to replace your imperfection. Our capability comes solely from Christ who removes our sin and replaces our failure with His obedience, we're covered. This is the righteousness that is from God and is given to us when we fall short.

I do not see that this is what being perfect is about in Scripture at all.

Paul says,
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
(Ephesians 5:25-27).

Did you catch that? Christ gave himself for the church so that he might sanctify it with the washing of the water of the Word (i.e. Scripture) so that Jesus might present to himself a church that is without spot, wrinkle, so that the church can be holy and without blemish.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 confirms this.

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."


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[danstribe]

Paul is talking about the Old Law and not all laws in general or the Laws within the New Covenant. This is evident in the fact that Paul talks a lot about "circumcision" when talking about the Law (Which is an Old Covenant command and not a New Covenant command).

Also, Paul is saying we are also initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. We are saved by asking Jesus to forgive us of our sin and by believing in His death and resurrection. But Paul is not saying that this salvation or justification is with an exemption of God's laws. Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid. So Paul is not in support of the idea that we can continue in sin so that grace may abound. He believes God forbids such a thing. In addition, James says faith without works is a dead kind of faith. For even the demons believe and tremble. James says we are justified by works also. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Paul says a person can deny God by a lack of works (See Titus 1:16). Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the Commandments (Matthew 19:17).


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It is always comforting to read posts such as yours and to know that there are still those who understand the truth and believe what is written.
I would like to add a little explanation about circumcision that a lot of people seem to over look. The law of circumcision is still in effect but it is circumcision of the heart by the Spirit. God's laws are not "done away" with.

 

[danstribe]

I do not see that this is what being perfect is about in Scripture at all.

Paul says,
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
(Ephesians 5:25-27).

Did you catch that? Christ gave himself for the church so that he might sanctify it with the washing of the water of the Word (i.e. Scripture) so that Jesus might present to himself a church that is without spot, wrinkle, so that the church can be holy and without blemish.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 confirms this.

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."


...

unto all good works...that is being perfect? Christ gave Himself to forgive our imperfections aka sin. He died that we may be forgiven and He lives that we may have life...through Him. We are to live as He lived...perfect, without sin. With His forgiveness and the power of His life now we are able to do this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is always comforting to read posts such as yours and to know that there are still those who understand the truth and believe what is written.

Thank you for your kind words.

I would like to add a little explanation about circumcision that a lot of people seem to over look. The law of circumcision is still in effect but it is circumcision of the heart by the Spirit. God's laws are not "done away" with.

But circumcision of the flesh and circumcision of the Spirit are not the same thing. The Command in the OT on circumcision does not exist anymore. Paul says if you seek to be circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). I believe God's laws have changed and they come into their full fruition of what He desired them to ultimately be.


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[rjs330]

The perfection we earn is in Christ and not our own acts. Jesus presents us as his bride. He sanctifies us we don't sanctify ourselves. He has begun a good work in us and will complete it. Nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ liveth in me. And the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God who.loved me and gave himself for me.

Jesus is at work in us sanctifying and justifying those who walk after him. We can choose to walk in Christ's work in us or we can choose to walk in sin. If we we choose to continually wilfull sin then there remains no more sacrifice for us only fiery judgement because we have rejected Christ's sacrifice.

But we must be very careful not to attribute a singular act as walking in sin. Every single act we do is deliberate and wilful because we have the Holy Spirit with in us and we are a new creature. The difference is that the act can be a momentary failure and a momentary weakness that does not doom us to eternal judgment. Why? Because we are not walking in sin, but are walking in Christ and when we sin we know it from the Holy Spirits conviction and we repent of it. God knows our hearts and he does not just judge our actions but our hearts. Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. So if we fail God sees all and he sees Christ in us our hope of Glory and he knows our sorrow for our failure and will forgive is our sins and cleanse us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

No there is no license to sin. That is complete violation of Grace. As Paul says shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! For in doing so we turn from a slave of righteousness to slave of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

But we are better than that. A single sin does not have to be our downfall. We are better than that for we have Christ in us. I don't have to do that. I am justified and in the process of sanctification. I am better than that sinful act. I don't have to live in it. I can move on from it. It does not doom me or control me or take away my salvation.

We were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, and slaves to our desires and various pleasures too. We were spending our lives in evil behavior and jealousy. We were disgusting, and we hated other people.But “when God our savior’s kindness and love appeared,he saved us because of his mercy, not because of righteous things we had done. He did it through the washing of new birth and the renewing by the Holy Spirit,which God poured out upon us generously through Jesus Christ our savior.So, since we have been made righteous by his grace, we can inherit the hope for eternal life.”This saying is reliable. And I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have come to believe in God might give careful attention to doing good. These things are good and useful for everyone. - Titus 3:3-8 Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:3-8 - Common English Bible

We have been made righteous by his grace. Not by our works. Our works show our faith. But works is always a continuous action. One good work can be done by anyone. Continuous good works show our commitment to faith in Christ. One sinful act can also be done by anyone, but it does not negate the continuous good works and faith of our lives. Just like one good work.does not negate a continuous sinful lifestyle and make one righteous.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

unto all good works...that is being perfect? Christ gave Himself to forgive our imperfections aka sin. He died that we may be forgiven and He lives that we may have life...through Him. We are to live as He lived...perfect, without sin. With His forgiveness and the power of His life now we are able to do this.

Whiile the slate can be cleaned after we confess our sins (1 John 1:9); We also have to walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light within this life so that the blood of Jesus continues to cleanse us (1 John 1:7). Ephesians 5:25-27 clearly ties the process of Sanctification (holy living) in applying Scripture to our lives with being perfect (i.e. without spot, blemish, etc.). 2 Timothy 3:16-17 confirms this.

In fact, do a search at BlueLetterBible on the word "perfect" and it's related words and you will discover that is a word tied to a specific action of some kind. James 3:2 and Matthew 19:21 are two more examples.


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[TheSeabass]

Being perfect is not a salvation issue (Philippians 3:12). But God does call us to be perfect as a part of the goal of our Sanctification (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Jesus says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).
The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.

God says,
"Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16).

Jesus says, "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).

Paul says,
28 "Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."
(Colossians 1:28-29).

Paul says,
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
(Ephesians 5:25-27).

Did you catch that? Christ gave himself for the church so that he might sanctify it with the washing of the water of the Word (i.e. Scripture) so that Jesus might present to himself a church that is without spot, wrinkle, so that the church can be holy and without blemish.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 confirms this.

16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."


...

Eph 1:4 God foreknew that the group Christian would be 'holy and without blame'. Since Christians do sin and have blame then the only way the Christian can ever be perfect, holy and without blame, without spot or wrinkle or blemish is by being "in Christ" and faithfully remaining in Him. Man can not ever attain sinless perfection by flawlessly, perfectly keeping the commands of God but only by being in Christ.

 

[TheSeabass]

Believers today do not keep the Old Law or the 613 Commands of Moses; They look to commands within the New Testament to obey God. For we are under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.


...

One today must go by the NT gospel of Christ in order to be "in Christ" and thereby be perfect, spotless, blameless "in Him".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The perfection we earn is in Christ and not our own acts. Jesus presents us as his bride. He sanctifies us we don't sanctify ourselves. He has begun a good work in us and will complete it. Nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ liveth in me. And the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God who.loved me and gave himself for me.

Jesus is at work in us sanctifying and justifying those who walk after him. We can choose to walk in Christ's work in us or we can choose to walk in sin. If we we choose to continually wilfull sin then there remains no more sacrifice for us only fiery judgement because we have rejected Christ's sacrifice.

But we must be very careful not to attribute a singular act as walking in sin. Every single act we do is deliberate and wilful because we have the Holy Spirit with in us and we are a new creature. The difference is that the act can be a momentary failure and a momentary weakness that does not doom us to eternal judgment. Why? Because we are not walking in sin, but are walking in Christ and when we sin we know it from the Holy Spirits conviction and we repent of it. God knows our hearts and he does not just judge our actions but our hearts. Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. So if we fail God sees all and he sees Christ in us our hope of Glory and he knows our sorrow for our failure and will forgive is our sins and cleanse us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

No there is no license to sin. That is complete violation of Grace. As Paul says shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! For in doing so we turn from a slave of righteousness to slave of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

But we are better than that. A single sin does not have to be our downfall. We are better than that for we have Christ in us. I don't have to do that. I am justified and in the process of sanctification. I am better than that sinful act. I don't have to live in it. I can move on from it. It does not doom me or control me or take away my salvation.

We were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, and slaves to our desires and various pleasures too. We were spending our lives in evil behavior and jealousy. We were disgusting, and we hated other people.But “when God our savior’s kindness and love appeared,he saved us because of his mercy, not because of righteous things we had done. He did it through the washing of new birth and the renewing by the Holy Spirit,which God poured out upon us generously through Jesus Christ our savior.So, since we have been made righteous by his grace, we can inherit the hope for eternal life.”This saying is reliable. And I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have come to believe in God might give careful attention to doing good. These things are good and useful for everyone. - Titus 3:3-8 Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:3-8 - Common English Bible

We have been made righteous by his grace. Not by our works. Our works show our faith. But works is always a continuous action. One good work can be done by anyone. Continuous good works show our commitment to faith in Christ. One sinful act can also be done by anyone, but it does not negate the continuous good works and faith of our lives. Just like one good work.does not negate a continuous sinful lifestyle and make one righteous.

This is simply not true.

Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).

The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).

Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4).

James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).

Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).

Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Paul says, “...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

Real world example:

An alcoholic can condone his alcohol by him saying he can drink occasionally on his way to being sober free. But he will never be sober free because he has no intention of stopping.

If GOD is perfect in all He does, then why cannot GOD perfect a believer while they still live?

Are they saying they are more powerful than GOD?

For why would a person want to continue in sin on any level?
For if a person knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would they not want to take that chance?

For would not the opposite of Sinless Perfectionism be Sinful Imperfectionism? Is there such a thing as a “sinning saint”? What about a righteous sinner?

But some will object and say they believe that they are for living righteously. But how much should one live righteously? Are we to live righteously at about 90%? How about 80%? 75%? 20%? Is there a percentage that we do not cross the line at?

In other words, a person cannot be perfect as Jesus commands of them if they are thinking they will always sin in this life as a part of some uncontrollable sin nature. The word "perfect" is tied many times to a particular righteous action and not to just having a belief on Jesus.



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