Perfection or no?

[Reformationist]

Therefore God does not require what is impossible from man.

Then why the need for a substitutionary atonement? What you espouse here is the heresy of Erasmus.

If man could be perfectly sinless, then there would be no need for the sacrifice of Christ.

You contradict yourself and make my point. If there was a need for Christ, as there obviously was, then God demanded something of man that he was incapable of providing.

Since Christians do sin, then the only way for the Christian to ever be holy, without blame, without blemish, without wrinkle is by being "in Christ". Christ's obedience was perfect thereby making Christ's righteousness perfect. When one is baptized into Christ he puts on Christ (Galatians 3:27) thereby clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness.

And if being baptized into Christ is necessary so that we would be clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ, then it seems rather obvious that God demand's perfection, even if it is substitutionary.

 

[danstribe]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

Contrary to what many people think (that we are not capable of keeping God's commandments perfectly) we certainly are capable. And Christ said "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect"
The secret to being perfect is this: Keep the commandments, all of them and when you fail, when you sin (and you will) God will accept Christ's perfection to replace your imperfection. Our capability comes solely from Christ who removes our sin and replaces our failure with His obedience, we're covered. This is the righteousness that is from God and is given to us when we fall short.

 

[Reformationist]

So we could be forgiven the sin that *was* expected?

Was there a point to that question?

Forgot who I was discussing this with. I'll use smaller words.

How does it make it devoid of purpose?

It's actually quite simple. You see, if God doesn't demand perfection, then you didn't need Christ to be a substitute for you. You see, if God doesn't demand perfection, YOU have already met the requirements. No need for Christ to atone for your iniquity. Catching on now?

 

[Winken]

Not all sin leads unto death (See 1 John 5:16-18). The sin unto death are the sins that John lists in Revelation 21:8 that lead to the "Second Death." Jesus said, if you look upon a woman in lust you are in danger of being cast bodily into the Lake of Fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Now, stop right here. Who was Jesus speaking to? If he was speaking to unbelievers it would not make any sense. Believers cannot be saved by forgivng people. They first need Jesus to be saved. So Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. Also, John says that if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Adam had caused a separation between God and made spiritually by just his ONE sin within the Garden. It all started by Eve buying into the devil's lie that she could break God's command (i.e. sin) and yet believe that she would not die (i.e. not die spiritually). The devil said, "Yea, ye shall not surely die."

In other words, people are buying into the same lie that Eve bought into.
Yea, ye shall not die (if you sin).

Side Note:

Sins not unto death are sins that are confessed and forsaken (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7). This is what is in view in 1 John 5. However, sins not unto death would also include minor transgressions or hidden faults (See Psalms 19:12). Also, not obeying the command to be baptized in this life is not a salvation issue, as well (See 1 Peter 3:21).


...

I read all of your posts carefully, Jason. You make excellent presentations. However, in this instance, you wrote:

"Jesus said, if you look upon a woman in lust you are in danger of being cast bodily into the Lake of Fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Now, stop right here. Who was Jesus speaking to? If he was speaking to unbelievers it would not make any sense. Believers cannot be saved by forgivng people. They first need Jesus to be saved. So Jesus is talking to believers......"

______________________

The Book of Matthew concerned specifically the Jews at a time prior to the Cross. Therefore, Jesus was speaking to Jews. They were, in fact, unbelievers, in that they did not acknowledge Jesus as their Promised Messiah. Jesus did not reference authentic Christian Believers in the references you cite.

[EDIT] I made a HUGE blunder when I typed this. Here is my belated correction (insert)!

.........they were, in fact, believers in their acknowledgement of Jesus as their Promised Messiah.

(Jesus was specifically teaching His followers (Apostles / disciples) in the Sermon on the Mount.)

My prayerful apology to Jason et al.......

Keep posting, Brother!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Therefore God does not require what is impossible from man.

You are having us one, right?

If you are serious, do you believe that any men are sinners?

 

[Reformationist]

I think you have taken pieces of my response and used them separately without the entire concept of what I was saying. You cannot take a small portion of my post, cut it out and use it standing alone.

Please read my entire post again and you will see what I am trying to say.

I went back and reread it. Not sure where you think I misunderstood. Like I said, if you were to be judged by your own merits, like the rest of us, you would surely fall short.

However, as a believer, you are clothed in the righteousness of Christ's perfection. Therefore, in the eyes of God, you are perfect. God most certainly does demand perfection. The graciousness of God is such that He accepts Christ's perfection as substitutionary for you.

THAT is why you are saved.

 

[Winken]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

Only God is perfect. When He looks at me, He sees the price Jesus paid for my eternal security. In no way does He look at my "record."

 

[Dan61861]

God demands perfection! Christ is our perfection.

The only way to be Holy like God is Holy is in Christ. He has done it for us. It is Christ's righteousness that is upon us. There is no other righteousness that is acceptable to God.

When the Lord said for us to deny ourselves and follow Him we trust in Him alone for our salvation. We don't look to ourselves for anything, our hope is in Him. Christ has washed us clean, we have entered His rest. Jesus has fulfilled the Law for us, He has suffered for our sins. Adding anything of myself to His finished work is deplorable.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[rjs330]

Simple as a pimple. You were using the verse out of context. When you keep doing that, I'm going to call you out on it because you know the context, yet you mislead others because you don't clarify the context as it should be.

If you want people to trust you, you should not pull verses out of their context because without context they seem to support your point.

Good job! The sinless perfectionism taught by some is very good at pulling verses out of context. And as you know it's a shallow understanding if scripture. Keep at it my friend and don't let it go.

 

[Reformationist]

Only God is perfect. When He looks at me, He sees the price Jesus paid for my eternal security. In no way does He look at my "record."

So when He looks at you, whose record does He see?

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's actually quite simple. You see, if God doesn't demand perfection, then you didn't need Christ to be a substitute for you. You see, if God doesn't demand perfection, YOU have already met the requirements. No need for Christ to atone for your iniquity. Catching on now?

Of course there's a need and it is far from devoid of purpose. So he didn't have to demand perfection, was the very reason Christ had to die. He knew perfection wasn't going to happen so he provided a way out. Just as it was in the OT, he provided sacrifices for whatever, and Christ simply took the place of that. He doesn't expect perfection, the reason God provided forgiveness/Christ in the first place. And the reason Christ himself taught we should ask forgiveness when we pray.

Are you saying we can live a life of sin, (as in, for example, the fornication scenario in post 153 or thereabouts, paragraph 2) without concern after we are saved and still go to heaven?

The immediately prior is posed to Reform, but an open question as well. Anyone?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I would say God desires us to strive for perfection but obviously knows that in a fallen state, we will, from time to time, fall short.

It's that simple, and precisely why he provided Christ as sacrifice for past and present sin if we ask.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It's actually quite simple. You see, if God doesn't demand perfection, then you didn't need Christ to be a substitute for you. You see, if God doesn't demand perfection, YOU have already met the requirements. No need for Christ to atone for your iniquity. Catching on now?

Bingo! Give that man a cigar!

 

[Gideons300]

The question is: Is God's standard for obedience: Perfection?

I'm not perfect, nor have I claimed to be, but God's law is, and His standard is.

What God asks of us is that we hate our self driven life and run into Him, fully yielding, and fully believing that the old us died when Christ did. How else can we reckon ourselves dead to sin.

And because we have all missed that, we take one of two paths.

1) We lower the standard that without holiness no man shall see the Lord to "I am only human, of course I will not be perfect", and taking this route, we lump willfull sin in with our human frailties. The truth is, one kills faith, the other is the soil that God will grow fruits into us. To remain in this false grace where God winks at our continued unrepentedcof sin and ushers us into Heaven while roasting those doing the very same thing be aise they did not say the magic prayer is in essence, turnong the grace of God into lasciviousness. Danger lies here, great danger.

2) We set about trying our best to be pure, sinless and holy. This path will lead is invariably to one conclusion or another.

a) We will eventually lose all humility and become hard line legalists convinced we must obey when we never even truly approach full love for God or full love for men. This is Pharisee type Christianity, erring on the ther extreme from greasy grace. This too is death.

b) We finally break under the weight of the demands (which is th very purpose of the demands to began with)
and either walk away from God altogether in defeat or finally fall on the rock of despair and tell God we long to be obedient but that we cannot. Thos is where Paul found himself in Ro,ans 7. Glory to God, he did not stsy there. It is a vslley we are all called to pass through, but never settle down and reside there.

Blessings,

Gidion

 

[Kenny'sID]

God demands perfection! Christ is our perfection.

Wrong, Christ provides forgiveness for our imperfection.

Or are you saying Christ's perfection renders us perfect even if we choose to live a sinful life after we accept him?

Or anyone can answer, it's a simple question.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

What God asks of us is that we hate our self driven life and run into Him, fully yielding, and fully believing that the old us died when Christ did. How else can we reckon ourselves dead to sin.

And because we have all missed that, we take one of two paths.

1) We lower the standard that without holiness no man shall see the Lord to "I am only human, of course I will not be perfect", and taking this route, we lump willfull sin in with our human frailties. The truth is, one kills faith, the other is the soil that God will grow fruits into us. To remain in this false grace where God winks at our continued unrepentedcof sin and ushers us into Heaven while roasting those doing the very same thing be aise they did not say the magic prayer is in essence, turnong the grace of God into lasciviousness. Danger lies here, great danger.

2) We set about trying our best to be pure, sinless and holy. This path will lead is invariably to one conclusion or another.

a) We will eventually lose all humility and become hard line legalists convinced we must obey when we never even truly approach full love for God or full love for men. This is Pharisee type Christianity, erring on the ther extreme from greasy grace. This too is death.

b) We finally break under the weight of the demands (which is th very purpose of the demands to began with)
and either walk away from God altogether in defeat or finally fall on the rock of despair and tell God we long to be obedient but that we cannot. Thos is where Paul found himself in Ro,ans 7. Glory to God, he did not stsy there. It is a vslley we are all called to pass through, but never settle down and reside there.

Blessings,

Gidion

Long post. I agree with much of it, but: no answer to the question.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

Of course God demands perfection, that was the point of the Law. It was to show us how impossible it was to obey it perfectly ... so we would admit the truth that we were imperfect sinners who could not possibly get to heaven on our own merits. So we would repent and seek God's forgiveness.

This is also the reason for the Cross. We get to exchange our sins and our sinful nature and its consequences for Jesus Christ ... who is perfect. He becomes our righteousness (because we don't have any of our own). It is faith in Christ's righteousness that gets us to heaven, not our own righteousness (which is but "filthy rags" as the scriptures say).

But that is not the end of the story, even here on earth. When we believe, God begins His Holy Spirit sanctifying work, changing our hearts and over time, changing our behavior. With real faith, now we truly want to please God and keep His commandments, we don't want to sin (although our bad habits are not yet conquered). So we grow. We keep getting better. Not yet perfect, but moving in that direction. The Lord will finish the job; as the scripture says, He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. In heaven, we will be perfect.

 

[Kenny'sID]

This is also the reason for the Cross. We get to exchange our sins and our sinful nature and its consequences for Jesus Christ ... who is perfect. He becomes our righteousness

Some will take that to mean we need no righteousness at all on our own since Christ has become our righteousness, so for the record, is that what you are saying?

And in turn, that means we can sin as we wish now because Christ is now our righteousness, and still be saved?...right?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You mention a single flaw that isn't a flaw at all, I'd have to know the full range of flaws you are talking about before I could agree or disagree. It appears you are really stating nothing new, sin is sin unless it is not sin, as in the one you mentioned.

For instance, living fornication as a lifestyle, I mean something we are always ready to do if the opportunity presents, is one very real thing that is not a flaw, that can end us up in Hell, and the type thing I am referring too.

Some say that is no problem, and it's covered by grace, or even go so far as to promote it by stating if we decline to do something like that, and teach it should not be done, we are legalistic, don't accept what Christ did for us and a number of other blah, blah, blah's to try to put a guilt trip on those who try to do good, or in the words of some, for doing such a terrible thing as trying to be proactive in our salvation. That is exactly how Satan, the master of confusion works.

There are those who will never buy Satan's junk, they know the truth and are happy to oblige God, where others don't like God's plane and want an easier one that lets them have their cake and eat it too, those are the ones that will be taken in/will allow it, and for that reason, it's no ones fault but their own.

Most of that is not directed at you, Gideon.

I believe there are sins that are not unto death as Scripture says (1 John 5:16-17). In context, the sin not unto death in 1 John 5 is confessed sin. For we are to pray so as to give life to the believer who is committing a sin that is not unto death. This would mean that we are praying for a believer who is struggling with a sin that they are confessing. We are praying for them to have life or victory over their sin. But I believe the "sin not unto death" also extends to hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:11). Minor faults. For him to knows to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17). For example: I cannot imagine God sending a believer to hell for not taking out the trash last night like they knew they should have or if they were to go a little over the speed limit. Two biblical examples of a "sin not unto death" is:
(a) Not obeying the command to be baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21).
(b) Boasting in each other and causing divisions in the body (1 Corinthians 3:1-15).

However, sins that are unto death would be serious sins that are go unconfessed like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, and lying, etc. They are called sins unto death because they lead to the "Second Death" (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Revelation 21:8). For the believing widows who live in pleasure are dead spiritually while they live physically (1 Timothy 5:6). For certain believing widows had turned aside after Satan (1 Timothy 5:15).


...

 

[Dan61861]

Wrong, Christ provides forgiveness for our imperfection.

Or are you saying Christ's perfection renders us perfect even if we choose to live a sinful life after we accept him?

Or anyone can answer, it's a simple question.

Christ is our perfection. Our sins are forgiven by His passion for us. We did nothing! It is His righteousness that is upon us.

Our flesh will never please God, it is already dead. We are perfect in Christ, through His work alone. We all live sinful lives, all of us sin whether we are in Christ or not. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags to God.

In Christ
Daniel