Perfection or no?

[Reformationist]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

 

[DeerGlow]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

I'm far from perfect. I can only hope for mercy.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

There are many who lower the demands of the law. All of them, that I've known, do so because they are living under the law. In other words, they are involved in a self-salvation project. They aren't living in the reality of the gospel, so they can't admit to failure in keeping the law.

Those who have the highest view of the law are the Reformed. The Reformed are people of grace. We can admit our sin because it doesn't jeopardize our position. Those who are attempting to earn their salvation don't have that luxury.

 

[DeerGlow]

There are many who lower the demands of the law. All of them, that I've known, do so because they are living under the law. In other words, they are involved in a self-salvation project. They aren't living in the reality of the gospel, so they can't admit to failure in keeping the law.

Those who have the highest view of the law are the Reformed. The Reformed are people of grace. We can admit our sin because it doesn't jeopardize our position. Those who are attempting to earn their salvation don't have that luxury.

If you break a number of rules or sin too often like me though, I have to question if I'm saved. It's not earning my salvation it's can a saved person act like this?

 

[EmSw]

So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

Actually, you said keeping His commandments is the same as keeping His commandments 'perfectly'. I replied nowhere does it say to keep them 'perfectly'.

I gave you many scriptures which tell us about keeping His commandments. If they meant keeping them 'perfectly', then no one is saved, nor can he be saved. Every man is a liar who doesn't keep them 'perfectly' (according to you), and they don't have the truth in them.

Since your belief portrays you as a liar, why should we believe anything you say? Your belief even says you have no truth in you. So tell us how you will keep from being a liar without keeping His commandments 'perfectly'.

 

[EmSw]

There are many who lower the demands of the law. All of them, that I've known, do so because they are living under the law. In other words, they are involved in a self-salvation project. They aren't living in the reality of the gospel, so they can't admit to failure in keeping the law.

Those who have the highest view of the law are the Reformed. The Reformed are people of grace. We can admit our sin because it doesn't jeopardize our position. Those who are attempting to earn their salvation don't have that luxury.

I'm afraid you have lowered the demands of the law. You say no one needs to keep them in order to know Him. You say no one needs to keep them in order to enter life.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Actually, you said keeping His commandments is the same as keeping His commandments 'perfectly'. I replied nowhere does it say to keep them 'perfectly'.

I gave you many scriptures which tell us about keeping His commandments. If they meant keeping them 'perfectly', then no one is saved, nor can he be saved. Every man is a liar who doesn't keep them 'perfectly' (according to you), and they don't have the truth in them.

Since your belief portrays you as a liar, why should we believe anything you say? Your belief even says you have no truth in you. So tell us how you will keep from being a liar without keeping His commandments 'perfectly'.

Commandments are either obeyed or not. You can't say, "I keep the commandments imperfectly". That's like saying you drive the speed limit imperfectly. It's a nonsensical position.

 

[DeerGlow]

Commandments are either obeyed or not. You can't say, "I keep the commandments imperfectly". That's like saying you drive the speed limit imperfectly. It's a nonsensical position.

Reminds me of the breaking one part of the law is like breaking all of it. Very big weight.

 

[Reformationist]

If you break a number of rules or sin too often like me though, I have to question if I'm saved. It's not earning my salvation it's can a saved person act like this?

We all have a different walk. Some of us suffer the chastisement of the Lord more than others because we are steeped in our sin and cleave to it more tightly. That doesn't mean you're not saved. It simply means God will do a greater work on you because a greater work is necessary.

Be heartened and trust in God. He will finish the good work He started on you.

 

[EmSw]

Commandments are either obeyed or not. You can't say, "I keep the commandments imperfectly". That's like saying you drive the speed limit imperfectly. It's a nonsensical position.

So, do you obey them or not?

 

[megabuff]

If you break a number of rules or sin too often like me though, I have to question if I'm saved. It's not earning my salvation it's can a saved person act like this?

i gues it would depend upon if its willfull or just failing.

Read Paul in romans 7:15-20

 

[Reformationist]

Actually, you said keeping His commandments is the same as keeping His commandments 'perfectly'. I replied nowhere does it say to keep them 'perfectly'.

Actually, what I said was, the command to keep His commandments is the same as a command to keep them perfectly.

I gave you many scriptures which tell us about keeping His commandments. If they meant keeping them 'perfectly', then no one is saved, nor can he be saved. Every man is a liar who doesn't keep them 'perfectly' (according to you), and they don't have the truth in them.

Well, that would be true except for the teensy little part of the Bible where we are given the actual good news, which is that Christ accomplished what God demanded and God graciously credits us with Christ's perfect obedience.

So tell us how you will keep from being a liar without keeping His commandments 'perfectly'.

Thankfully, God has promised to reckon me righteous, i.e., perfect, on the basis of Christ's vicarious atonement.

Blessed be the name of the Lord...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism:

Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of our Sanctification. It is yet another Biblical doctrine that is commonly misunderstood and or denied amongst Eternal Security Proponents or those who do not believe that “Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From God.” Here is a...

List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:

1. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).
   
   
2. Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).
   
   
3. Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).
   
   
4. GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).
   
   
5. Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).
   
   
6. Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).
   
   
7. We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).
   
   
8. Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).
   
   
9. James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).
   
   
10. Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
    
    
11. David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).
    
    
12. Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).
    
    
13. Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).
    
    
14. Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).
    
    
15. Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT). Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34). John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 1:8).
    
    
16. Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).
    
    
17. Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB). Paul also says, “But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).
    
    
18. Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).
    
    
19. Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?
    
    
20. Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).
    
    
21. John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)
    
    
22. John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4). John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).
    
    
23. Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).
    
    
24. The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).
    
    
25. John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).
    
    
26. Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).
    
    
27. Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).
    
    
28. Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).
    
    
29. Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
    
    
30. James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).
    
    
31. Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).
    
    
32. Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).
    
    
33. Paul says, “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” (Ephesians 4:1).
    
    
34. Paul says, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul also says, “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).
    
    
35. Zacharias says, “That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75).
    
    
36. Paul says, “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:20-23).
    
    
37. Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).
    
    
38. Paul says,“Men, brothers, I have conducted-myself with all good conscience before God up to this day” (Acts 23:1 DLNT)
    
    
39. Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).
    
    
40. Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).
    
    
41. Paul says, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2).
    
    
42. Paul says, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11).
    
    
43. Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
    
    
44. The author Hebrews says, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).
    
    
45. Paul says, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27). Jesus says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19). For Jesus says, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).
    
    
46. John says, “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).
    
    
47. Paul says, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
    
    
48. Jesus says, “So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:10-13). A Multitude of People in Heaven says, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.(Revelation 19:7-8). Note: the fine linen that represents the righteousness of the saints is the same wedding garment that the man at the wedding did not have on.
    
    
49. Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).
    
    
50. John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

Real world example:

An alcoholic can condone his alcohol by him saying he can drink occasionally on his way to being sober free. But he will never be sober free because he has no intention of stopping. He hoping one day somebody else will stop him.

If GOD is perfect in all He does, then why cannot GOD perfect a believer while they still live?

Are they saying they are more powerful than GOD?

For why would a person want to continue in sin on any level?
For if a person knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would they not want to take that chance?

For would not the opposite of Sinless Perfectionism be Sinful Imperfectionism? Is there such a thing as a “sinning saint”? What about a righteous sinner?

But some will object and say they believe that they are for living righteously. But how much should one live righteously? Are we to live righteously at about 90%? How about 80%? 75%? 20%? Is there a percentage that we do not cross the line at?

Anyways, here are some more….

Common Objections to Sinless Perfectionism (With Answers That Resolve them):

#1. Objection: So if a believer has not reached a state of Sinless Perfectionism, does that mean they are not saved?

Answer: No. Sinless Perfectionism is merely the goal for a believer’s life (Philippians 3:12). The Scriptures talk about how this is a possible goal for us to achieve while we are still yet alive. But the problem with denying the Bible’s teaching on Sinless Perfectionism is that it suggest that a person's goal or aim is not to try and be perfect before GOD but it is to still hold onto sin on some level (even if it is a sin done on rare occasion). For can a serial killer who comes to Christ still murder as long as he does so every ten years (chocking it up to his will is weak and that even believers sin)? Does not Paul essentially say that we used to be sinners? (Ephesians 2:2-3, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Colossians 3:5-7, Ephesians 4:17-24).

#2. Objection: So are you sinless?

Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. For one, the Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Two, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

(a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

(b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also the types of sins like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or causing divisions within the body (1 Corinthians 3), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

(c) Unforgivable sins.

Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).​

#3. Objection: I don’t see anyone who has stopped sinning or who is living righteously.

Answer: First, we are called to live by faith and not by sight. For without faith it is impossible to please GOD. Second, if you lived during Noah’s time in a region that was very far away from Noah, you wouldn’t have been able to see anyone living righteously around you. Yet, the Scriptures say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and the whole world was destroyed for their wickedness as an example to all those who would live ungodly thereafter.

#4. Objection: It’s self righteousness to want to overcome sin.

Answer: Is it really? Does not God call us to be holy as He? Also, say a person struggles with the sin of drug abuse or sex addiction outside of marriage. Would you say that a person is being self righteous who wants to overcome these sins? Surely not. Overcoming sin is merely a desire to be closer to GOD and in pleasing Him. People who are self righteous like the Pharisees were criticized by Jesus for not keeping God’s Word. They appeared to others as being righteous, but inwardly they were wicked. Jesus did not say to them that they needed to have a mere belief alone on Him. Jesus told them to clean the inside of the cup.

#5. Objection: It is impossible to stop sinning.

Answer: This is simply not true. There are many verses that suggest that a believer can stop sinning. Also, when the disciples asked who can be saved when they found out that rich men cannot be saved, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.” Meaning, that GOD can change the heart of a man (if he is willing to come to Him). Meaning, the LORD can help people to overcome their sin. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (not just on the cross, but in your life, too).

#6. Objection: Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, 1 John 1:8 does not say that a believer will always be abiding in some kind of sin. That is not what it is talking about. 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is transgression of the Law." Breaking a Law is breaking God's Commandments. 1 John 2:4 says if a person breaks God's Commandments (i.e. if they sin) and they say they know Him, they are a liar and the truth is not in Him. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So 1 John 1:8 cannot be saying you will always be breaking God's Commandments or sinning at some point in your life. Then what is 1 John 1:8 saying?

Well, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus.

#7. Objection: Does not Paul say he struggled with sin in Romans 7?

Answer: Well, in the majority of Romans 7, Paul is recounting the experience of the Israelite or Jew's history with the keeping of the Law. Paul is Jewish and he was a Pharisee, so he also included an account of his own personal struggle in trying to keep the Law (while as a Pharisee before he became a Christian).

(a) Romans 7:5 deals with Paul and other ex-Law keeper’s struggle (who are now Christian) in trying to keep the Law.

(b) Romans 7:7-13 Paul speaks from the perspective of Israelite history and experience with Old Testament Law. Paul uses the word “I” in reference to the Israelite receiving of the Law of Moses. Note: This is not the first time Paul uses the word “I” in reference to somebody else’s experience (See Galatians 2:18).

(c) Romans 7:14-24 speaks of Paul and the other ex-Law-keeper’s own personal struggle (who are now Christian) with trying to obey the Law before knowing Jesus Christ.

(b) In Romans 7:25, Paul then transitions the conversation that with Jesus Christ he can then be delivered from the body of death that controlled him as a part of his old religious life as a Pharisee and a Jew (See Romans 7:24-25).

5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands], did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments], that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit [i.e. the Commands by Jesus and His followers in the New Testament], and not in the oldness of the letter [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments].
(Romans 7:5-6).​

For Romans 8:2 mentions two laws.

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).

There is...

(a) The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (i.e. A New Covenant Law).
Which is walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

(b) The Law of Sin and Death (i.e. An Old Covenant Law).
This was the Old Testament Law that could condemn you by capital punishment or with physical death. Hence, why it is called the Law of Sin and Death.​

In Romans 8:4, obeying the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus helps us to fulfill the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law, which is to love your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).

Side Note:

Oh, and also Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is clearly speaking from two different perspectives here.

#8. Objection: Does not Matthew 6:12 tell us to forgive us our debts which is a part of the Lord’s Prayer?

Answer: Well, I used to think that the Lord’s prayer was a daily prayer for all believers (to be prayed as an outline) over the course of our whole lives. But after examining the Scriptures, this is simply not so. First, of all, it does not say it is a daily prayer. Second, while this prayer can be prayed in a daily manner, it is a prayer for new believers in the faith. It is a starter prayer that helps a new believer to walk uprightly and give glory to GOD and in seeking His will for their life because the disciples asked how should they pray. Forgive us our debts (sins) as we forgive our debtors (i.e. those who sin against us) may not always apply. There may be a day where nobody sins against you. Also, what about verse 13? If we pray not to be led into temptation and ask GOD to deliver us from evil and GOD answers that prayer, are we going to keep praying for GOD to deliver us from evil when He has answered our prayer in being delivered from evil? In other words, it does not make any sense to pray for something that GOD will never give to you in this life.

#9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

For Romans 3:11 says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
(Romans 3:11).
​

How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).

#10. Objection: Does not Ecclesiastes 7:20 say there is not a just man upon earth that does good and sins not?

Answer: Well, here is what Ecclesiastes 7:20 says in the Good News Translation:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 GNT
"There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake."​

In other words, this is speaking of the fact that a believer may do things that would not be classified as a sin that leads unto death (i.e. the Second Death or the Lake of Fire). Mistakes would fall under the category of hidden or secret faults as mentioned in Psalm 19:12. This is not talking about serious sins that lead unto spiritual death like lying, hating, stealing, murdering, fornicating, and getting drunk, etc.

Also, this was during the time of the Old Testament, too (See Hebrews 11:40)

#11. Objection: Does not Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:5 teach against Sinless Perfectionism?

Answer: Well, when we read these types of verses in Scripture, we have to also read James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 to get a balanced view of Scripture. In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are talking about Initial Salvation or how we are ultimately saved (Justification) which is by repentance and a belief in Jesus. James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 are talking about your allowance in letting Jesus to do good works thru your life (i.e. Sanctification or holiness). Salvation is a person named Jesus. So if a person abides in Christ, they are saved and good fruit will be the proof in the pudding that Christ truly lives within them or not.

#12. Objection: Does not confessing our sins to the LORD in 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 mean we will never be sinless?

Answer: Having an advocate that we can confess our sins to does mean we trivialize sin or not treat it as seriously. Confessing sins goes hand in hand with forsaking sin (1 John 1:7).

Yes, even the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee teaches that GOD’s grace is there for us if we do honestly sin, but the other lesson of the parable (that most people miss) is that the pharisee did not even humble himself to confess his sin in the first place. Nowhere does this parable teach that a person will always sin. It is clear from Jesus’s encounters with the Pharisees that they did not repent to GOD of their sins and they were not living righteously. For Jesus called them hypocrites.

Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to GOD and to forsake their sin. When the people had turned from their wickedness, then GOD had decided to not bring wrath or Judgment upon them.

What is the point of confession if a person is going to just sin again?

Can a husband still cheat on his spouse the rest of his life on occasion to his wife as long as he just says he is sorry? Surely not. It is the same with GOD. For GOD takes certain sins very seriously. If a person minimizes sin by saying to themselves that they are just going to sin at some point in the future because they cannot help it, then they are condoning sin (Which is wrong). In fact, GOD would have to agree with a person's thinking that it is okay for them to sin again in the future with the idea that the LORD is going to save them. But can GOD agree with sin? Surely not. While GOD can be merciful and while He can forgive a lot, if a person goes into their walk with GOD thinking they are just bound to sin against Him at some point in the future, then that is exactly what they are going to do. They have already made up their mind to sin (Which is wrong).

In conclusion, I will leave the reader with the following verse.

“An unthinking person believes everything, but the prudent one thinks before acting.” (Proverbs 14:15 ISV).



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[Reformationist]

Commandments are either obeyed or not. You can't say, "I keep the commandments imperfectly". That's like saying you drive the speed limit imperfectly. It's a nonsensical position.

Too funny..and exactly true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually, what I said was, the command to keep His commandments is the same as a command to keep them perfectly.



Well, that would be true except for the teensy little part of the Bible where we are given the actual good news, which is that Christ accomplished what God demanded and God graciously credits us with Christ's perfect obedience.



Thankfully, God has promised to reckon me righteous, i.e., perfect, on the basis of Christ's vicarious atonement.

Blessed be the name of the Lord...

Not all sin leads unto death (See 1 John 5:16-18). The sin unto death are the sins that John lists in Revelation 21:8 that lead to the "Second Death." Jesus said, if you look upon a woman in lust you are in danger of being cast bodily into the Lake of Fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Now, stop right here. Who was Jesus speaking to? If he was speaking to unbelievers it would not make any sense. Believers cannot be saved by forgivng people. They first need Jesus to be saved. So Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. Also, John says that if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Adam had caused a separation between God and made spiritually by just his ONE sin within the Garden. It all started by Eve buying into the devil's lie that she could break God's command (i.e. sin) and yet believe that she would not die (i.e. not die spiritually). The devil said, "Yea, ye shall not surely die."

In other words, people are buying into the same lie that Eve bought into.
Yea, ye shall not die (if you sin).

Side Note:

Sins not unto death are sins that are confessed and forsaken (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7). This is what is in view in 1 John 5. However, sins not unto death would also include minor transgressions or hidden faults (See Psalms 19:12). Also, not obeying the command to be baptized in this life is not a salvation issue, as well (See 1 Peter 3:21).


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[jimmyjimmy]

Thankfully, God has promised to reckon me righteous, i.e., perfect, on the basis of Christ's vicarious atonement.

Blessed be the name of the Lord...

I'm resting my weight of my soul on that promise.

Indeed. Blessed be His name!

 

[Reformationist]

I'm resting my weight of my soul on that promise.

Indeed. Blessed be His name!

You and me both brother...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The difference here is are you justifying sin or are you seeking to overcome sin with God's help.
Most in the church today seek to justify sin on some level and they really do not care to walk as Jesus walked in any way. They want to serve God and yet also serve their sin, too. But Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jude 1:4 mentions those who turned God's grace into a license for immorality.
I would make every effort to make sure that my belief was the farthest thing from that idea or concept.

For Titus 1:16 says there are those who deny God by a lack of works.
Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus tells certain believers to depart from Him in Matthew 7:23 because they worked iniquity (sin) along with doing good works. The point in Matthew 7 is not a sin and still be saved type gospel. The point of Matthew 7 is obeying Jesus because if you were to keep reading, you would see in verses 26-27 (Matthew 7:26-27) that he that does not do what Jesus says is likened to a fool who has built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. The analogy here is that we (our bodies) are the house and we will be destroyed if we do not obey Jesus. Over and over and over again this is taught to us in the Scriptures. You have to willing keep hitting the "Ignore button" when you read the Scriptures to not see such things.


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