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Featured Perfection or no?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Reformationist, May 29, 2017.

  1. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Faith does not exist without an object, so I was speaking about the means of justification, and naturally faith needs to be in the right object in order to become justified.

    Indeed.
     
  2. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    So what is the object of our faith that serves as the meritorious basis for our justification?
     
  3. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Our faith is in God's promise of a redeemer and in God to train us by grace in how to rightly live. We are saved by faith, not by our own merit. This is a description of what our salvation looks like:

    Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
  4. Winken

    Winken Heimat Supporter

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    The Cross.
     
  5. GrammyJ

    GrammyJ Former SDA

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    If we could obey perfectly, Jesus need not have come and died. We don't deserve it, but we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus, not by the level of our obedience to a set of rules.
     
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  6. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Kenny, I did answer the question. I said...we are perfect in Christ, through His work alone. We all live sinful lives, all of us sin whether we are in Christ or not.

    Let me give you an example. Do we know we should do good all the time? Do we do good always? If not, we are willfully sinning.

    What a wretched man I am, praise God for our Lord and savior.

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
  7. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Your faith better be in the efficacy of Christ's work and God's promise to reckon you righteous on that basis.

    No. You are saved by grace through faith. Faith is the vehicle through which God dispenses His saving grace.
     
  8. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just to be clear you have chosen not to answer the question?

    And don't worry, I won't be goading you. Also, don't get me wrong, I didn't expect you to answer but before I go on, just wanted to be sure you didn't just get talking and forget to answer... :)

    Yes, no? maybe?

    Here's the question again so you don't have to look it up.

    Also, so I can give even more opportunity for others that agree with the basics of what the OP is teaching here, once again, you may answer it as well, if you would please.
     
  9. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You did not and have not, but not a problem, I don't want to force anything from anyone, only give full and clear opportunity. :)
     
  10. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So we need only have faith and God saves us, and that's it? And of course that would be by grace, but how do you define faith?

    Two questions there.
     
  11. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Did I confuse you by using big boy words?

    Here's my answer from when you first asked this stupid question:

    "I've never espoused the vile belief of antinomianism, nor has anything I've said even vaguely resembled such a view."

    Now, I can understand how that answer might have thrown you off. It's got a word in it with more than two syllables.

    Let me know if you need me to explain that to you using Watson sized words.
     
  12. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Taking into account your history of trying to bait people by asking gotcha style questions, I'll pass on the first question. I'm sure answering it would be a waste of time.

    As to how I define faith, I will simply say, true saving faith, that which James describes, is marked by a knowledge of the content of the Gospel, a recognition of the binding authority of God's Word, and a personal reliance on the promises of Christ for salvation.
     
  13. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Thanks for sharing the "secret" to being perfect. Although your statement is completely irrational, and I'm not sure we share the same definition of the word.

    Also, I'm coming to your house for a visit. I want to check on the parapet.

    “When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring the guilt of blood upon your house, if anyone should fall from it. (Deut. 22:8)
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  14. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    God predestined us to be conformed to the image of Christ.
    So it is a work of God in your life, you do not perfect yourself. The perfection here is as Christ says 'I in them, you in me, all perfected as one' spirit with the Lord, so no separation of fellowship with God, a perfect relationship. We get that perfect relationship by being born of God, so then adopted as sons, fully accepted in the beloved. That perfection requires no sin to be put to our account as we have become the righteousness of God in Christ, what a great salvation to be of the family of God.

    Christ was perfect and also perfected. Christ said
    John 17:22-24New King James Version (NKJV)
    22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

    24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

    Romans 8
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    Matthew 5:48New King James Version (NKJV)
    48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
     
  15. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Christians saved by faith in Jesus Christ are not under the law. We are under grace.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Is not God good?
    Should not His people be good because He lives within them?

    Why is everyone seeking justification in doing the wrong thing instead of the right thing with God? The right thing to do within that verse for God tells us that a person will be called the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven if they teach His Commands. Yet, everyone else is arguing against that idea here. Yes, we have to love Jesus. Yes, we have to have faith in Jesus and trust Him. We should focus on loving Jesus every day in worship and in talking to Him silently and with other believers. We have to say "I love you Jesus." as we would say to everyone else we love here on this Earth. We have to praise His name in adoration behind closed doors. We have to be thankful every moment to Jesus for His sacrifice. We have to love Jesus with every fiber of our being. For we obviously cannot lose our first love like the church of Ephesus did in Revelation 2 (Revelation 2:4). But I believe the other wrong is for people to not to love Jesus by obeying His commandments. Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments; And Jesus said to the church at Ephesus to repent and do the first works. The first works involving love.

    Anyways, let’s read what Jesus actually says in Matthew 5:19. Jesus says,

    “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven…” (Matthew 5:19).

    Notice here in this verse it does not actually say that this person who breaks the least of these commands (and teaches others to do so) is IN the kingdom of heaven. It merely says that they will be CALLED the least in the kingdom of heaven.

    But what about Matthew 11:11?

    “Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Matthew 11:11).

    Who is the least in Matthew 11:11?

    The "Lesser" or the "Least" in Matthew 11:11 is talking about the "Greatest" in the Kingdom. How so?

    Jesus says,
    “And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.” (Luke 9:46).

    Jesus says,
    “But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.” (Matthew 23:11).

    And it is written,
    33 “And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
    34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
    35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
    36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
    37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.” (Mark 9:33-37).

    Here we see in the Scripture verses above that the Least in the Kingdom of Heaven is the greatest within Matthew 11:11. For the Least in Matthew 11:11 is the one who accepts, loves, and ministers to all people including children and they are a servant (i.e. least) to all people in humbleness. Those who behave as though they are lesser or least in the Kingdom are ACTUALLY the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. For those who serve in God’s Kingdom in the New Covenant by loving others is better than the greatest of the prophets such as John the Baptist. For John followed the Old Covenant ways. For John was the last of the Old Testament prophets.

    However, the "Least" in Matthew 5:19 are those who break God’s commands and teach others are Least in a bad way.

    How so? The rest of Scripture gives us the testimony that breaking God’s Commandments is bad and not good.

    John says,
    “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4)

    John says,
    “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

    Jesus says,
    "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness.'" (Matthew 7:21-23).

    In fact, Christ says that He will send His angels and gather out of His Kingdom all who sin and practice lawlessness and cast them into the furnace of fire.

    Jesus says, "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire." (Matthew 13:41-42)

    Jesus tells us that by keeping His commands, it shows whether or not we truly love Him or not.

    For Jesus says,
    “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me." (John 14:21)

    And Jesus says,
    "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words."(John 14:23-24).

    Paul says,
    “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing.” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    Paul says,
    “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

    Conclusion: There are Two Leasts.

    Matthew 5:19 and Matthew 11:11 are talking about the word “Least” from two different behavioral perspectives. One being bad because of bad behavior (Matthew 5:19) and the other being good because of good behavior (Matthew 11:11). This is not uncommon for the Word of God to speak of one thing as being mentioned as being both good and bad. There are two trees in the Garden. One good and one bad. There are two lions. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah and the roaring lion who seeks to devour you. There are two vines. The True Vine and the Vine of Sodom. There are also two “Leasts” in Scripture, as well. There are the “Least” who are the Greatest by Being the Least in Behavior and then there are the “Least” who break God’s Commands and teach others to do so.

    I hope this helps.
    May God bless you in all manner of His goodness.
    And please be well.

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.


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  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But when you tell people that they are saved on the basis of God's grace and it is not in anything they do and you say nothing more they are going to think they can sin and still be saved. For example: If the President of the United States had pardoned every criminal of his past crimes and set them free and he even gave them a pardon to commit future crimes, what kind of society would we have today? Chaos. Disorder. Evil running rampant. No justice. People would not take the President's pardon of forgiveness as a means of turning their life around, but they would turn his pardon of forgiveness into a license to sin because it is human nature to do the wrong thing.

    So you have to add the clause in there that says, "But you have to live holy in order for your Eternal Security to be true" every single time you say a believer is saved by God's grace and not by anything they do. If not, you are leading men to think they have a license to sin with God's grace.

    John Piper believes in OSAS Lite. He teaches strongly against sin as a mark of a true believer on the surface. But yet he believes in Eternal Security. Sounds good, right? Well, if you were to take a closer look at what Mr. Piper believes, you would also discover that he believes that suicide may not cause a believer a loss of their salvation in every case. Okay. If that is true, then that is justifying sin and God is breaking His own laws to let some people slide into His Kingdom. This would mean God can bend or break His own standard of morality. But this is not possible because God is good.

    Alright. So let me ask you a question.

    Do you believe it is possible for a believer to die in one or two unrepentant sins (like say lying or lusting after a woman) and yet still be saved (as long as they generally lived a holy life)?


    ...
     
  18. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your perception is always off.

    You think only in black and white, polar opposites. If someone is not exactly agreeing with you they live a life of sin, sin, sin and they choose not to keep God;s commandments.

    All you read is that they don't agree with you and you are off to prove that they promote sin and sinful behavior, so I'm not sure anyone can disagree with you before you are throwing out scripture in protest.

    You need to listen to people and maybe learn something from what they are saying instead of constantly rolling out your own position and being defensive in promoting that only you are right.
     
  19. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your looking at the wrong thing. God tells us to look for the fruit of the spirit. The fruit that shows that they have the Holy Spirit in them.

    Sin may be our own barometer for learning, since we know all about ourselves, but it should not be the barometer for looking at others.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Paul is talking about the Old Law and not all laws in general or the Laws within the New Covenant. This is evident in the fact that Paul talks a lot about "circumcision" when talking about the Law (Which is an Old Covenant command and not a New Covenant command).

    Also, Paul is saying we are also initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. We are saved by asking Jesus to forgive us of our sin and by believing in His death and resurrection. But Paul is not saying that this salvation or justification is with an exemption of God's laws. Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid. So Paul is not in support of the idea that we can continue in sin so that grace may abound. He believes God forbids such a thing. In addition, James says faith without works is a dead kind of faith. For even the demons believe and tremble. James says we are justified by works also. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Paul says a person can deny God by a lack of works (See Titus 1:16). Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the Commandments (Matthew 19:17).


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    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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