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Featured Perfection or no?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Reformationist, May 29, 2017.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    A person cannot be perfect without abiding in Christ. This is true. But abiding in Christ and being perfect is in relation to righteous action or works. Please look at the verses in Post #260. You cannot say that being perfect is all about having a belief on Jesus. The word perfect is associated with righteous action many times in the Bible.


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  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    That is false. Nowhere does the Bible say that we will sin as a matter of fact over the course of the rest of our lives. There are many verses that tell us that we can overcome sin in this life.

    Jesus says to two people to sin no more.
    Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
    Romans 13:14 says put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
    1 Peter 4:1-2 says that we can cease from sin and that we should not live the rest of our lives to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God.

    Peter actually describes the false prophets as not having ceased from sin
    (See 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14).

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  3. danstribe

    danstribe Active Member

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    In the OT women were excluded concerning God's command to Abraham. It was a physical act performed by physical men the "new" commandment is performed by the Spirit and includes women because it is now called circumcision of the heart. But even this is not a "new" commandment. God required it long ago Deut 10:6 “So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer." Deut 30:6. "And the Lord your God will give to you and to your seed a circumcision of the heart," Jeremiah 4:4 "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds."
     
  4. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Okay, so, I'm not sure why you quote my question and then change it and then answer the changed version of the question. I am aware of God's omniscience. I am not asking whether God is surprised by man's disobedience. I asked whether He demands obedience.
    Abraham, and David, were justified in the exact same way that everyone else is justified. We are accounted righteous because of the imputation of Christ's righteousness.
    No. God demanded perfect obedience. He accepted less than perfect obedience because He is merciful. To claim that a holy God "desires" less than perfection is to impugn His divine character. To acknowledge that God desires perfection but, because He is merciful, accepts less than perfection is a recognition of His graciousness.
    Agreed. Never said otherwise.
    Being "in Christ" is something done to us, not done as a result of our adherence to God's commandments. We obey Him because we are His, not so we can be His.
    Agreed.
    Agreed.
    Actually, it takes an act of graciousness by God for us to be in Christ. Nothing we do gets us there. Faithful obedience is the byproduct of recognizing the magnificence of the gift of being put in Christ.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  5. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    All people who are justified are justified because God reckoned them righteous because of the vicarious atonement of Christ Jesus. You speak of "obedient faith" as if it's a locket you wear around your neck. Faith (and obedient faith is the only kind of faith as all others are something other than faith) is the means given by God through which we personally lay hold of the merits of Christ's redemptive work on the Cross.
     
  6. danstribe

    danstribe Active Member

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    Oh wow, that sounds so harsh...and hard to do! But wait. somewhere Someone said that it won't be easy, They called it the "Straight and Narrow" Living a perfect sinless life is what a Christian is supposed to "strive" for!. Christ's sacrifice reconciles us to God, forgives our sins, but we WILL BE REWARDED ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS! We are to be careful how we build and our works are to be able to withstand the fire. If they are all burned up then what we had will be taken away. Parable of the talents.
     
  7. danstribe

    danstribe Active Member

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    It seems as though God accepts less than perfection...But then again if He did why would He sacrifice His perfect Son for us? God does NOT accept less than perfection which is the very reason why Christ HAD to die, to PAY for our imperfections. Only by His perfection are we able to stand before God. God's graciousness IS NOT ACCEPTING OUR IMPERFECTIONS! God's graciousness is the fact that He GAVE HIS SON TO PAY FOR OUR IMPERFECTIONS!
     
  8. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Well, Mr. Cappy Caps, let me clarify. When I said "God accepts less than perfection," that was my way of saying, "The reason that God doesn't immediately smite someone for sinning is because He's merciful."

    Though I think what most of you and Jason are posting is heretical nonsense, I do agree that Christ's sacrifice is evidence of God's demand for perfection.

    Hope that clears up what I meant so you don't have to try to capitalize me into submission again.
     
  9. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    No man (other than Christ) can be perfect in his actions.

    One of the verses you cited “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).

    Perfection for man can only be found "in Christ" nowhere else.
     
  10. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    1 John 1:7-10 proves that the Christian does sin, as there were those Christians in the bible that committed sins for none were perfectly sinless.

    Ceasing from sinning does not mean it is impossible for one to sin, but that one who becomes a Christian cannot continue to live in sin.

    1 Peter 2:20 "For what glory is it, if, when ye sin, and are buffeted for it, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye shall take it patiently, this is acceptable with God."

    Peter here implies the Christian can sin for there is no glory for the Christian when he sins and endures with patience the harsh treatment he receives for for his sin. There is no credit in receving punishment for one's sins.

    1 Peter 3:8-11 if it were impossible for the Christian to sin, then these warnings from Peter make no sense, useless.

    1 Peter 4:15 implies the Christian can sin.

    1 Peter 5:8 makes no sense if it were impossible for the Christian to sin.

    2 Peter 1:5-10 implies the Christian can so sin as to become lost. Again, this passage makes no sense if it were impossible for the Christian to sin.

    2 Peter chapter 2 shows those that have been "bought" (verse 1) can return back to sinning and become lost.

    2 Peter 3:17 implies the Christian can so sin as to become lost.
     
  11. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    The problem you are having is you are mistaken the humility we have in sin with justifying sin. No one is justifying sin, not one.

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
  12. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    The OP asked "
    .....not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments."

    God demand man to obey Him but knows perfection in obedience is not possible for man.

    I know of no verse where God required perfection in law kweeping for one to be justified. Abraham was not perfect in his law keeping but was still justified,

    They were justified by an obedient faith (Romans 4; James 2). Neither were perfect in law keeping for both sinned. If God required perfection in law keeping then neither one would have ever been justified.

    What verse does God require perfection in law keeping by man?

    On one hand you post "God demanded perfect obedience" but then post "He accepted less than perfect obedience because He is merciful".

    This is a contradiction or flaw in God on one hand requiring perfection but then accepting less than perfection. Why would God require perfection from man knowing He would never get it?

    There is no verse that says God required absolute sinless perfection from man in order for man to be saved.



    God knew perfection for man would be found in Christ, so God never required perfect law keeping by man for man to be saved.



    A faithful obedience is required to be placed in Christ.


    Doing nothing will never get one placed in Christ. There is not a single example under the NT gospel of anyone being placed by doing nothing/faith only. All in Christ were placed there for they had an obedient faith.
     
  13. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Those that were reckoned righteous were so for their obedient faith.

    There are many verses that God demands an obedient faith to be saved, not single verse that God required perfect, flawless law keeping to be saved.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The humility we have in justifying sin? What?!

    Your not making any sense.


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  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    1 John 1:6, 1 John 1:8, and 1 John 1:10 are warnings to the brethren against the false gnostic belief that you can sin and still be saved. For John was writing to the brethren about those who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). He that says he knows Him (Christ) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). 1 John 1:8 is a person denying sin's existence or that sin does not apply to them in Christ. It is saying if we say we have no sin (when we do sin) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. It is not saying you will always be in sin. 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense. Surely you are not sinning while you are knocked out unconcious. Surely you are not sinning every second of every hour of the day. John tells us in 1 John 2:1 to: "sin not." It would be pointless for him to tell us to not doing something that we would always be doing as a part of our present status of existence.

    There is a difference between newer Christians who need to mature in the faith and put away their sins versus (vs.) Christians who have matured in the faith and overcome their sins. God chastens those who are willing to repent and change and reform. God does not chasten those who are bastard sons. The chastening of the Lord does not make any sense if there is no actual reform in the individual as it's intended goal. For example: A master lightly smacks or disciplines his dog when he poops on the carpet so as to get the dog to stop pooping. The master does not endless smack the dog without seeking a change in the dog's behavior. Now, imagine if the dog had an uncontrollable pooping problem (like you think man has in a way spiritually). Does it make sense for the owner of the dog to discipline his dog in this case? No. This dog is going to release brownie shaped treasures all over the carpet beyond it's own control. The dog needs medical care or it needs a new environment, etc. Punishing the dog for something that you know it cannot help to do does not make any sense.

    I am not suggesting that Christians cannot sin. We all have free will. I am saying that once a believer matures in the faith, they will learn to overcome their sin by the power of God and His Word.

    I believe Christians can sin. Those who justify sin and do not repent are not going to make it. Those who repent and forsake their sin and overcome their sin and this world will make it.

    I agree. So I do not see why you appear to defend the idea that we will always sin as a believer in this life if sin is what separates us from God. I believe sin can separate a believer from God. This is not a new teaching in the Holy Scriptures.


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    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Folks need to look at the verses in Post #260.

    The word "perfect" is associated with rigtheous action.
    To deny this is to deny Scripture.


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  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In the Parable of the Talents, that individual who did not bring forth anything for God's Kingdom was labeled as an unprofitable servant and they were cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do.

    See this image here by clicking on the following spoiler button:

    [​IMG]

    For in Acts 7:54, those who stoned Stephen had gnashed their teeth at him. It is a thing that the wicked does. Yet, these were supposed to be believers in God.


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  18. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    Its really more about being perfect IN LOVE.
    There are many who say that we must keep the commandments of the church rather than or rather, in addition to Yeshua.
    The law we are to abide by is the one Yeshua commanded. Love God with all your heart mind soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
    Now, if we can manage to do that then we fulfill the requirements and are considered "perfect".
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).

    There is that hated word "perfect" again.
    Oh, how many wish that word was not in their Bibles.

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  20. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Of course you don't. Not one person here has justified sin, this is all in your mind. You really should study the parable of the tax collector and the pharisee.

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
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